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A. Roisch
AFAIK the S55 (which you left out) and the S600 cannot be ordered as SWB cars anywhere in the world. See Weltweit MB website.
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I would agree that the 220 is much more manuverable than the 140....although I have only driven the 220 for about 10-15 miles.....but I do think that the quality of the leather and workwork is much less.....the 140 just seems to be a much more substantial heavy duty car.........but the true test of the 220 will be how it will age and how easilly it wears...those have always been Benz hallmarks....but it seems that will the last few cars the quality of interior materials has dropped a bit from the car the preceeded it.
Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
I agree......MB was building cars and letting the prices fall where ever instead of building a car to hit a certain price point.....that worked for a while....but here comes Lexus and people looked closely at the price/ value equation.....I think the 140 was a better built car in terms of quality materials....as I think most people would agree....but not enough to have justified the huge difference in price(25-30K).....and the fact that the Lexus was so much more realiable than the 140...
In terms of the post 1995 price decrease,I know from a good friends parents who purchased a new S500 back in '98....they were discounting heavilly from the sticker price of the S-Class....sticker on their car was 90K and they purchased it for 78K Not sure what the actual transaction costs were for the early cars(92-94)....hopefully not sticker!!!! Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
My 400SE when new(back in 1992), was actually couple grand more than a 500E. In 1994, a E500 would be roughly 3K more than a S420(LWB, before facelift)... hope you got the idea of the price... :p
Even in W140, you can really tell the differences in quality and workmanship. My GF's parents '95 S320 has some minor, rattle sound coming out of glove compartment, some of the pieces in the interior are not line up properly, and the sound of shutting the door is not as solid as my aged '92.... P.S. I also don't think you can S600 in SWB form... for W140, YES there is S600 SWB, but not W220....Not sure about S55 though.. Andy Kuo |
W140 SWB 600??
Andy-
Are you sure there was a SWB 600 140? what years was it produced and in what countries was it offered? Just curious. |
Hi, hope you don't mind me butting in, I have tons of info of this type. Still unsure if this was offered in the US, the engine did have catalytic converters, though. I don't believe it was offered in the US, not 100% sure.
Preproduction began in 10.90, production models 04.91, it was called the 600SE. In 06.93 it was called simply the S600. The long S600 was called the S600 long wheelbase, no badge to tell the difference between a long and short wheelbase. Total production of all short wheelbase 600 140 chassis was 3,399, including preproduction vehicles. Gilly |
Interesting. What would have been the point? I mean, in every country I can think of, the V-12 S Class would have been a limousine or else personal transport for CEOs/sports stars/VIPs etc. Who among the target audience would care about a SWB version? Or are there countries where it would matter for legal reasons?
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gillybenztech,
Thnx for the quick reply.. hehe.. :D Anyways, if you look through dealers papers, some times you would notice something like S320W and S320L(on papers for W140s made from 1994-1996) written on the paper instead of "S320" badge on the truck... S320W = SWB S320L = LWB HOWEVER, some how, MB decided to change again, and uses S320V/S500V for LWB from 1997... and "W" for SWB(not sure about this one though.. have to check). Here is the break down... use S500 for example... S500V OR S500L = LWB S500C = Coupe S500W = SWB Andy Kuo |
Yeah, good point.
Small garage? In my info, there was no performance differences that I could find, fuel mileage also was nearly identical, so there go the first 2 thoughts I had, either performance gains for a slightly (100mm) shorter car, or the less weight (10kg lighter). The only marginally significant difference? Price. In 1998, the last price quoted for the short S600, it cost 4,176DM less than the long wheel base. This was 04.98. The low production figures seem to reflect that it really wasn't such a hot product to make. 3,400 cars is really a drop in the bucket, although my info does cover the S500 long wheelbase landaulet: Production date 3.97, number produced: 1 (for the Vatican) God Bless America! God Bless The Popes S500! Gilly |
I don't think the 600V-12 was ever offered in the shortwheelbase version in the 140.(in the US)....I think the only 140's available were the 300SE(S320) the 400SE(92 only) and all the diesel 140 300SD(S350)......and I think they only sold about 3000 diesels 140's in the three years they were imported stateside.....most of the shortwheelbase cars will be 300SE's (S320)
Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
For your Reference :
Here is the list of W140 sold in H.K. Model..............................Bhp/rpm..........0-100km/h...........top speed S280 SWB (YES, 2.8L).....193/5500..........10.5.......................215 S320 SWB/LWB...............231/5800........8.9/9.1.....................230 S420 SWB/LWB..............286/5700............7.9........................245 S500 SWB/LWB..............326/5700............6.7........................250 S600 SWB/LWB..............408/5200............6.1........................250 And the price of W140 was astronomical expensive when compared to the other brands, but still it could outsell any competitor like Lexus, Infiniti, BMW and Acura very easily. Yes, W140 is a hi-tech, overloaded dinosaur......but everyone who sits in side will be impressed with what it offers. At least, all my friends say the same compliment on my W140----" feel so proud and prestigious " Those elements can't be replaced by others easily I suppose....Lexus can't...BMW can't.....even the W220 can't........... "To be one of the crowd or seen in the crowd" Its still your choice...:) |
No diesel 140 in Hong King?!...:-(
I agree with your reply about the 140 being a standout....but MB should have really gotten their act together on reliability before they released the car to market......WAY TO MANY PROBLEMS!!!...especially the early years...some like the AC evap issue still plague the later cars...I will admit that I have thought many times about the Lexus as I drove away from my dealer in the service loaner.....one thing I have figured out...the 140 doesn't look nearly as attractive with the hood up in the dealer's service drive... Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
No, Diesel W140 is not available since day one as diesel is not popular and the Government doesn't allow any registration of diesel private car at all.
Yes, W140 got hips of problems in its early days...........we all know it by heart. But guess what, there are still many many W140 members/ owners here and may not be willing to trade their cars in ..........there must be some elements ruling out the others and making us fall in love and stay with it for long. As long as those problems can be solved out, we should be happy................as the others may have problems too........:) |
My has SOME of the common problems(Close Assist Pump, Gauge Cluster, Shimmy Steering)... however, some are fixed under warranty(Shimmy Steering), rest I get discount for repairs.... and my Evap Core is still working(figers crossed), and seriously, I still rather have a W140 S500 than W220 S500... :)
Andy Kuo |
Well,
In regard to problems myself or the original owner have had ALL the problems....steering shimmy(MB bought the original owner a new set of tires),Instrument cluster,window regulator,rear vanity mirror,AV evap core TWICE!!,Climate control push button unit,Alternator,Complete New engine,blower resistor and vacuum control unit, and closing assist pump... most of this(thank god) was done under warranty...bust just the work that I have had done since I have owned it approaches the amount I paid for the car...... I hope the 220 doesn't have these type of teething problems as I think the clientele that typically spends that amount of money on their auto does not like to be inconvenienced by all the trips to the dealer...I mean don't get me wrong I love my car as long as everything is working...and the funny thing is the tech at the dealer says that everything that has happenend to my car he has fixed on many others in the past...so my situation is not unique Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
S-class models
Mr. MidwestMB, I recognize mea culpa in forgetting about the S55 on my list, and yes, the new W220 S600 cannot be bought off-the-shelf as Short Wheel Base (it was the W140).
According to some in-house sales directives I have access to, the W140 was available as a SWB for the customer who wanted the performance, exclusivity and power of the V12 without the destroyer-proportions of the LWB W140. We have to remember that the proportions of W220 are much, much, smaller than the W140. So the SWB W220 is definitely not worth it to have it as a 600. On the other hand, even a SWB W140 was a already limousine sized. Finally, about not being able to buy an W220 S600 SWB in any market: don't be too sure about it. I know for fact that if you are willing to fork a substancial premium, Mercedes-Benz will build one for one. Unlike the dealers in the U.S. which are very limited about special orders, an M-B dealer here would accept any special request (as long as you are willing to pay for it). A. Rosich S320, 1998 E320T, 1995 |
I don't doubt MB would build darn near anything if a client wanted to pay for it.
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A. Rosich got the point.... SWB W140 is already close to LWB W220 in size while LWB W140 simply is the MONSTER(biggest S-Class build, excluding Pullman).
Andy Kuo |
I think the 220 has at least the same amount of interior space as the 140(if I am not mistaken)......in fact the rear legroom is larger than in the 220....I have ridden in the back of a 220 and the legroom was huge
Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
Warren:
I was ready to post something to this effect yesterday as well. I hope they were comparing apples and apples, though, long chassis to long chassis. I went to the 220 model intro (not technical training, that came later) it was mostly for sales guys. I believe you are right that the interior space technically was pretty close to the W140. According to one resource here at home, The 220 is 2.1 inches shorter (exterior) and 1.1 inches lower roofline than the 140, but that the 220 has 2 inches more rear legroom. The 220 is said to weigh 765 lb less than the 140. Another source, Motor Trend Online, reported the 220 to be "1.4 inches narrower and 1.6 inches lower" than the 140, and that the drag coefficiency dropped from 0.31 to 0.27, and that it was 660 lb lighter. Also to quote "Despite it's more compact footprint, the car's generously proportioned interior dimensions remain virtually unchanged.". Gilly |
The W220 simply rules in terms of driving. Yes, the 140 is more of a "GTF out of my way" TANK, but I can't say the improvements in maneuverability, ride quality, and fuel economy of the W220 aren't worth the slight loss of intimidation factor and overbuild.
The 140 "seems" a little bigger inside, but much of the incremental room is wasted - i.e., wider center console - who cares - seat room same. Have a '00 ML320, '01 S430, and '01 SLK320. For same cover (with very high liability limits) on each, the S430 is the least expensive of these vehicles to insure. My co-worker who has a 99 S500 was quoted FOUR TIMES the premium I'm paying on my '01 S430 for similar cover. Having driven a LOT of cars, the new S is my fave by far in terms of any parameter you can name, except the W220 S500 which is marginally smoother and a little faster. I wouldn't trade my '01 S430 for any 140. And I used to lay awake at night wanting a 140. Also, the jury's still out on cost-to-maintain and anyway MB pays ALL the maintenance during the warranty for post '99 cars (here in the US anyway). FWIW, I spent more money repairing and maintaining my 1992 Acura Legend (which was under warranty for 3/4 of the time I had it) than on ALL FIVE MB's I'VE OWNED and LEASED COMBINED. Bottom line - cost of ownership matters and MB realized it. W220 rules on value and driving quality. We will see if it holds up like an MB should. |
Already put 12000 miles on S500 without any single problems , which I had experienced in my 97 e420 during its earlier years such as light bulbs, check engine, etc.
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Well I truly hope like someone mentioned before that MB now cares about total cost of ownership with the 220...because I don't think they did with the 140......way too many problems!!!
Car is great when everything works ....but can be a maintenance nightmare......interestingly enough I have noticed the drop in resale values as the older cares are not eligible for extended warranties any more...the value seems to take a much larger dip after about the 6-7 year point which is about as old as anyone will warranty a car these days.........seems the general public must be a little leary about non warrantable 140's and therefore the value( in their minds) has to be lowered to form a budget for repairs Warren 1992 300SD 126K Columbus Ohio |
I just saw a promotional video from 1992 that said design work began on the w140 series in 1982. I guess those 10 years yielded what can truley be called the best car in the world.
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Andy Kuo |
I would like to know as well.
Thanks |
Well, I'd love to see the propaganda video (remember Herr Goebbels) showing the '140 was the result of 10 years work.
Meanwhile, the 220 - released post Schrempp takeover - is a better car in every way (except it isn't a 4 door saloon SUV like the 140)...maybe MB was onto something but got it wrong (IOW customers wanted a heavy car to save their own butts in a collision, and didn't give a **** about gas mileage or safety of others)...if the 140 was half the price, it would have sold like the Expedition...oh wait a minute.... The 220 S is much more attuned to MB values: cutting edge performance, socially responsible construction, and environmentally responsible. The 140, kick ass as it was, was the Hummer of sedan/saloons. Huge, over engineered, and too expensive to maintain past its warranty. Gehen Sie Juergen!!! |
Well I can say that my 1995 S-350 is the best automobile I have ever owned. It is my first Mercedes and is built like a bank vault. Has over 155,000 miles and no squeaks, rattles, or looseness in anything. It even still looks like new.
http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/...0/30919068.jpg |
Believe it or not, S320 is actually a better buy when everything is in consideration!!! It's rock solid like any other W140, very well build, yet the repair/service costs is the least of all W140...
P.S. I think S320 was rated best luxury sedan in the class couple times.... can't remember who rated it though.... |
JMHO: the W140 was, indeed, the best car made up until its time. Indeed, I'd be proud to drive one and I have no doubt it would be rattle-free and a great ride...UNTIL something went wrong. Then, prepare to fork out huge money for repairs unless Starmark covers it.
OTOH the W220 rides better than any 140, gets much better fuel economy, is more collision-friendly (with other cars - w/o sacrificing safety to its occupants) and is priced much more reasonably as a new car. Not to mention, as with all post Y2K MB's, the overall VFM is much better than previously. All 220 S Class presently sold in the US are LWB and have standard ADS, EBP, ESP, COMAND, a V8 (or V12) ULEV engine, navigation system and 5 Speed Tipshift adaptive program AT. All these were options, upgrades, or not offered on the 1999 and earlier S Class in the US. No doubt, the second-hand 140's currently available are fantastic automobiles and great values at present used-market prices. However, unless you get one with a warranty, prepare to pay aviation-style maintenance/parts costs when something breaks. No criticism of the 140 intended, the 220 is a worthy successor and a better car. You pays your money and you takes your chances. As for me, give me my black/charcoal '01 S430. Passed on a 1999 S600 for similar money. But ANY MB before another car.... |
Equipement wise, Ride comfort, design, and everything you can think of on a W220 is better executed than W140.... EXCEPT material quality!!!(No offense to any W220 owner, just my opinion)... that really makes one pondering how W220 would last in the long run....
Andy Kuo |
220 vs. 140 material quality
Exactly which materials are you referring to? I've owned and driven a bunch of MB's, and don't have any real complaints about the materials used in the 220 (mine's a US spec '01 S430). It's the tightest, quietest Benz I've driven. I don't see any glaringly cheap plastic or anything; the cup holder design in the 220 is cool; and the new headrests rule.
If you get up into the W220 S600, the whole dash is covered in leather - don't think the 140 600 had that if I'm not mistaken. I looked seriously at buying a couple of '98 and '99 S500 and S600's, but in the end my wife and I both liked the 220 better on ride, styling, and interior. Still think the 140 kicks butt though...it's a matter of personal taste. LOL we have a forum seriously "debating" which S Class is "better..." no wonder the rest of the world hates us.....;-) |
The '95 and up W140 S600's did indeed have the full leather interior, suede headliner and wood/leather steering wheel . . I'm sure the W220 S600 is just as nice though. . .
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My personal opinion is that the 140 just feels "heavier duty" than the 220......to me the leather on the seats and the wood trim appear to be of higher quality...it seems that the materials would last longer in the 140...but hey...considering the price decrease I think the 220 is a great car for the money
warren 1992 300SD 127K Columbus Ohio |
ADS, ABC vs. regular suspensions
A big reason the 220 drives better than the 140 is the standard ADS 2.1 (Airmatic) suspension. An earlier iteration of ADS was a (rare, from what I've seen) option on the 140. Hopefully, as with the generally bulletproof post-99 4Matic vs. the older, notoriously unreliable/horribly expensive to fix 4Matic system, they've made the newer ADS pretty reliable. I think the long term reliability (or lack thereof) of the suspension system (either the standard ADS or optional ABC - std ABC on W220 S600V) is one of the main things that will answer the question of the 220's long term quality and value, both generally and in relation to the 140 cars.
Would be interested to hear from anyone with long term experience with ADS - either a 220 with over 50k miles, or an earlier model with ADS - does it break? What are the maintenance issues and are they readily resolved? Other comments? Is ABC more or less reliable than ADS? MB seems determined to roll out ADS to the next gen E Class and possibly the M Class replacement, so they must think they've got it right....comments please |
I would be very interested also in what type of initial relaibility the 220 has...and by 50K miles what typical repairs might be needed...one thing is for sure...they must have sold several right off the bat as when I go to Chicago or Dallas..I always see several on used car lots around town...
I also bet the 220 will be very expensive to fix out side of the warranty period..but so a 140..lol I have driven a 220 for a few miles(5)..and it felt great ..buts its hard to determine much from such a short trip Warren 1992 300SD Columbus Ohio |
No doubt the more MB popular markets like Dallas, Chicago, and LA see more high mileage S220's (and cars generally). I'd like to hear from more long term S Class owners who have had 140's and 220's to relate experiences with reliability/service downtime.
I knew someone with an early W140 S600 who had a main bearing oil leak that was, to my knowledge, never successfully fixed. FWIW my '00 W210 (E430W4), bought used at 5000 miles, had the entire steering rack replaced under warranty at ~8k miles due to a serious hydraulic leak; and my '00 ML320 had a ESP steering angle sensor ($$$) replaced under wty. So none of these high tech beasts is immune to parts failures. My main concern is whether the ADS and other S-Class systems/features are especially prone to premature failure or outrageously expensive fixes (e.g., the W126 and W140 AC condensor replacements at $5k, typical at 100k miles). Or has MB got these high tech systems pretty well locked down and reliable, excluding accidents, abuse, bizarre failures. etc. When it runs right, the 220 is - agree with the car rags - the best luxury sedan ever made. |
W140 vs W220 ride and quality
I am certainly delighted about the huge response and exchange of views the argument over which is better (the W140 or the W220) has generated.
About two weeks a very good friend of mine bought a '01 S430. He also owns a '96 S320. We put both W140s (his and mine) and his W220 into a small ride test. The excersize consisted of driving the cars at different speeds over a good size speed bump. Not to the surprise of both of us, the W140s always stayed composed and instead "feeling" the speed-bump, you only could hear the suspension absorbing it ( regardless of speed ). The W220 stayed somewhat composed at lower speeds (under 10 m.p.h.), but as the speed increased, also the bottoming out of the suspension increased. After 45 m.p.h., the '01 S430 would literally shut your lower back and also jump a little sideways. The W140s? Well, like a bank vault, they laughed at the speed-bump, stayed always composed and kept their straight direction. The new air suspension might allow the W220 to be more agile in certain sport situations, but in terms of ride comfort, it just plainly cannot win over the W140. And, in terms of quality: just park the two cars side by side. Open and shut all the doors and just "hear and feel the difference"! The W140 wins hands down by a large margin. A. Rosich S320, 1998 E320T, 1995 |
I agree the 220 feels lighter duty.....but even in the short drive I have had in one...it handles much beetr than a 140....I threw the car into curves at speeds I would never have attempted in my car........also as everyone knows the 140 was not nearly as reliable as the 126 car that it replaced
I wonder what the 220 will hold in terms of reliability? Warren 1992 300SD 128K Columbus Ohio |
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. . good stuff, AR!
Your posts here should be made into a text book. Congrats on your extensive knowledge and the ability to express it.
If anybody thinks the W220 will be 'better' down the road, then look at the Daimler-Chrysler return for the last 3+ years. If you don't understand it, you should! It speaks volumes! http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/DCX_3y.gif |
The graph speaks volumes - but what is the actual return on the W140 vs the 220?
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Actually the graph could reflect the cumulative hit to DCX's profit from the warranty repair costs on W140's (LOL) throughout the 90s and into 2001, which should now be bottoming out as they start coming off warranty....I'm buying some stock on Monday!
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. . . good answers
but the graph shows that MB has dropped 60%. And that means they are in trouble! So MB is forced to make cars cheaper because they must to stay alive.
So wait about 7 years or so, and see how well the W220 holds up. That graph is a harbinger; it's already telling you what to expect! |
Well, no argument they're building cars more economically, but disagree that it's necessarily because "they have to" but may be because the customers won't buy (enough, anyway) a car whose long term total cost of operation exceeds its economic usefulness, and pay MB the cost of such car plus a fair profit.
In other words, if maintained like (at costs comparable to) a Beech Bonanza airplane or a Grand Banks yacht, the W140 would last 25 years and drive like a dream the whole time, while providing perfect safety. Unfortunately the marketplace seems to be saying, we want to buy a superb car that runs awesomely for 7-10 years with little/no maintenance, and that's all we want to pay for. I don't think Juergen et al are selling out as much as facing reality. |
A graph may be worth a hundred translations ...
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OT
hey YMSIN...just noticed you're in Malaysia. KL I presume? I spent a lot of time in Asia on business over the last few years - was just in HK a couple weeks ago in fact. Been to most of the major cities around the Rim but never to KL.
How do the MB's hold up in all that humidity? Any rust issues? Are parts hard to get? At least you don't have to worry about winter tires! |
Re: OT
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Most of our MBs are tropicalised and can stand the local climate well. Only the few direct imports may be a little affected and pose a few problems here and there, but it is quite unheard of now as the global trade expands faster than you can blink an eye. It rusts, like most cars do, but they generally fare better than the Japanese models with the exception of the Lexus (perhaps not many around to make a decent comparison). Yes - quite riight that we don't worry about winter tyres. But we do have to spend a moment or so to decide on whether to get an all-weather tyre, or stick to the dry/wet ones. Do give us a tinkle the next time you're in our area. Good day. :) |
I've taken a ride in a 94 S500 (60K miles) and an 01 S500 (3K miles). The 01 had AMG wheels and low profile tires. I liked the ride and quietness of the 94. That's how I believe an MB should behave. The 01 wasn't as smooth or isolated and it wasn't as quiet. Is this a result of the wheel package and/or redesign or a poor example of a W220?
Sixto 91 300SE 81 300SD |
disagree with MidwestMB. . .
There's no doubt the MB has 'attacked' ALL of the price markets. But there's only one way to do that; quality MUST suffer! Unless you can get water from a stone, it's a plain fact of life; you don't get something for nothing.
My '94 S500 is seven years old, so we are in the 'critical' time of life. And I can report, it's working fine. To build a car equivalent to the W140 (the current W220), the cost would be $150K in todays dollars. You said: Unfortunately the marketplace seems to be saying, we want to buy a superb car that runs awesomely for 7-10 years with little/no maintenance, and that's all we want to pay for. So you think that we determine what the market will charge? Not so! And we are going to pay in today's dollars for a car with the quality of a W140? And it's going to run "awesomely" for 7-10 years with little or no maintenance?? What you smoking?? I'd like some. Sixto: When a low profile tire is put on, the ride will suffer. It has to do with the physics, unfortunately! The smaller (and harder) the tire, the worse the ride! There's no way around it. But the up-side is, the cornering and handling is improved. Can't get something for nothing! |
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