Jim,

I am not sure how long you have owned your car but most people that own 140's for a number of years can tell you some horror stories about costs of repair...and hopefully they were paid by warranty...my personal example has had over 20K in repairs in the last 3 years...and it was a one owner MB dealer serviced car. I thinkwith the 140's it will soon get to the point where the value of the car versus the cots to repair will make it unrealistic to do $2500.00 evap cores


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

JimF,

I think you took what I was saying out of context...and Warren's post confirms what I'm thinking. You're right, if built to the same standards and materials quality as the W140, the updated car might well have to sell for over USD150,000 (for the S500). And reference Warren's post and mine above re total cost of ownership. If a car is expensive to maintain, the customer has to pay somehow (either up front so the mfr can bear the cost of a lot of warranty work, or pay for it themselves down the road). Either way, the marketplace has reacted by saying:
1) We prefer a lower total cost of ownership, even in an S Class.
2) The higher total cost of ownership of a W140 has to be reflected in its used purchase cost, which is why (IMHO) the late model 140's, even low mileage, sell at such big discounts to both their own new prices and the 220's.

I looked seriously at both, and the value proposition on the W220 was better. To me. For my money. That doesn't mean I disrespect my business partner who leased a Starmark 1999 S500 recently. But I'll tell you they gave him a *helluva* deal, including warranty for the full length of the deal.

You're 100% right, you can't get something for nothing.

...if you simply have to have the Tank-like model
 

The W220 MB Guard S500 is always available. Armored doors, bulletproof glass, self sealing tires and fuel tank and all. And, it's over US$157,000. The extra 800lb. of metal should more than make up for the mass reduction of the non-Guard W220 vs. the W140.

lol on the tank version of the 220 Midwest

I do agree with your point about the cost of operation having a bearing on the cost of the car...with the 140's I have noticed that after about the 5-6 year old mark they take a faster rate of depreciation...hence about the time that no more warranty can be had for them because of age/mileage

People know this and therefore the higher costs to maintain have to be factored into the purchase price.......hence lower prices.I have seen several early models, 92-94 ,in the upper teens to low 20's.I am very curious to see what happens when the 140's get down to being to being worth 8-10K.....My verdict is that unless the person can do their own work(which would be a very skilled person on this car) the market will see a lot of junk 140's as the costs to repair cannot be justified by the cars worth...most all of my vast repairs were covered by warranty....I love the car ...but I gotta tell you If I had had to pay for some of those repairs I would feel differently......I had one visit to the dealer where they replaced 3 items that I was told were common 140 breakdowns...evap core,blower resistor,and climate control push button unit...the bill was $5200.00!!...if you do the math you would need to have a pretty valuble car to justify that if it was coming out of your own pocket


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Why in the world should some a/c work cost $5200. THAT is the problem, dealers charging an arm and a leg for repairs. And Mercedes not coming out with any kind of service manuals or cd's on the cars. It's like you have to take it to a dealer on certain repairs or risk messing up more trying to do it yourself without some instructions. I love my Mercedes but American cars are way way ahead in the service support and books that are available from the manufactors.

almost 2/3 of the charges was for the evap core....$650 part and 28 hours of labor at $75.00 per hour

and if you have seen that evap job done I would only trust that to a dealer or a VERY VERY good independent as they have to take the car down to the bare metal in the dash area to get to it...the margin of error in that job has to be huge...and by the way the evap was the second one that was done on my car...the original owner had it done at MB of Morristown NJ(where the car was originally bought and serviced) at about 50K....My car is now out of warranty but I have had several heated discussions with my MB zone rep and he very aware of the service issues with my vehicle...especially repairs that have been done more than once on non wear and tear items...the most recent being an AC switchover valve that was replaced May 2001 and again in September 2001 because the airflow would suddenly stop blowing though the dash vents afetr about 40 mins or operation


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Threads like this are the reason I am on my fourth 126 car. I would like to upgrade to a W140, but I'm not sure there is any good alternative besides spending top dollar on a 3 year old car with a warranty. What mileage do all these problems start occuring? How foolish would it be to buy a 1992 or 1993 140 with 100k on it for $20,000?

Let me get this straight...
 

You have a (presumably wonderful) 1988 MB 420SEL with only 47k miles on it. Awesome automobile, barely broken in.

You are correct that the only upgrade from there (in the S line) would be to a low miles 1998 or '99 S420, S500, or S600. (Or to a W220, but at a much higher price). You're also correct that, if you found such a car, you'd want a Starmark warranty for the whole time you plan to drive it.

The W140's are legendary for their maintenance expenses. OTOH they are also truly magnificent automobiles when running right.

If you're really interested, you might consider a lease on a late model Starmarked W140, with warranty to or past the lease end. Then, you'll know your total cash outlay going in. Friend of mine just did a deal like that. The car is beautiful and he has nothing to worry about if the dreaded $5k A/C repair hits.

MidwestMB...
 

So, basically, I'd have to spend over $40k to enjoy the same maintenance free service I should plan to get out of the car I already have. The 140 is updated and full of interior gadgets, but I don't see a dramatic improvement... maybe its just me (I kind of like springy seats, a huge steering wheel, and a transmission shift that can spill your coffee)

Financial Discussion:

I first test drove a 140 5 years and 2 W126's ago, back when I figured it would be the next car I would buy, and assumed I should be able to afford one. Boy was I wrong: I bought a 10 year old, near mint 420SEL with 120k in 1997 for $9000, the car listed for $53,050 new, which translates to paying 17% of MSRP. The car was one generation old.

vs.:

Its almost 2002 - so a 1992 400SE, with approximately 120k miles, which listed on the lot 10 years ago for $77,900 should be $13,243 assuming the same devaluation. ($77,900 x 17% = $13,243) The car is, like in the above example, one generation old. I have yet to find one less than $18,000 - and that gets you a real "rat" of a car; one which will undoubtedly require major work in the forseeable future.

Has anyone else considered this analysis before?

Re: MidwestMB...
 

It's flawed, as the market price is set by demand and supply. These relationships may be quite different than when you bought your W126.

Re: MidwestMB...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rich126


Has anyone else considered this analysis before?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's flawed, as the market price is set by demand and supply. These relationships may be quite different than when you bought your W126.



I'm not sure my analysis is at all flawed. My point is that the cars are selling for more than what their predecessors were sold for a few years earlier, thus making them not as good of a deal for used car buyers.

Rich 126
 

1) Correct...you will spend upward of $40k cash (in my experience, about $46k min) including Starmark premium for a W140 that will last 5-7 years with a reasonable chance of no big non-wty maint.

2) I got a deal to pay $39k total, including all taxes, for 4 years lease of a S430, F/R heated seats, Nav system, rear side blinds, and CD chgr: ZERO maintenance costs, guaranteed for life of lease. No down pt. Buy car at end for $47k or walk away.

3) Same deal = pay $16k (lowball figure) for a 100k miles 1994 S500 and spend $23k on maint over the 4 year period (reasonable assumption given the car's history). Assumes one AC rebuild, one semi-major top end rebuild of engine, and routine maint plus contingency for other work.

4) My old boss had a 199s 600SEL with main bearing oil leak that was NEVER fixed despite numerous attempts.

Midwest,

If you find a 1994 S500 for 16K go ahead and call the tech for an appointment because it will probably need lots of AC and electrical work....so the 7-8K that you save by buying a car under market value will be spent anyway...and that is not including the possible paint and interior wear

Rich,

In regard to your pricing/value statement I think that the 140's hold value better than the 126 cars ...although the 140's had much higher sticker prices they were heavilly discounted ...I am not sure what the actual transaction prices of the 126 were when they were new...but in case if you look at the actual transaction prices of the cars the 140 may have been a better value new(..?)

to me,as I have owned both,the 140 is a definite improvement and evolution over the 126...the car,to me,gives you the feeling that they spared no expense in the materials of the car....and of couse the price or repairs reflects that...my personal car had a window sticker of a little over $72K and it was originally bought in December 1991 so it was one of the early ones and that in itself may be the reason I have had ALL the problems associated with this series. Maybe before any of the updates were done

I am curious as to the initial reliability of the new 220...as I have heard some stories from the tech at the dealer that works on mine about $1000 seat computers....so it seems the repair cost if anything will be more than the 140 as the 220 is an electronic marvel
but with evolution of the S class you probably get a car that is safer as it has more features and that is important to me...which is why I will be looking at newer vehicles because I see merit in systems like the side/curtian airbags and ESP and brake assist


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Repair cost 220 v 140
 

Jury is still out. Maybe MB have made the high-tech bits more reliable and/or easier to service. Remember, MBUSA has gone to free maintenance (including oil changes and other scheduled service) during wty period for all 2000 and post MY. OTOH, 220 includes many standard very high tech features (ADS, COMAND, etc.) that will undoubtedly entail much labor and costly parts to fix if they break.

Disagree that 220 is not stylish or attractive...on the contrary I now think it's better looking (albeit not by much) than the 140.
It's a dream to drive, the COMAND system is fine once you learn how to use it, and everyone loves riding in the car.

Reliability and durability - we will see how the 220 holds up. As noted in earlier post, both my 210 and 163 have had significant (warranty-paid) component failures. No repairs yet on my R170 but we hardly drive it (2100 miles in 7 months).

In any case, refer to the post on pages 3-5....MB used to build cars to a quality point, damn the build cost and selling price...grandma had a 1972 MB250 that she drove for 10 years and the interior and exterior showed NO visible wear (Nautical Blue/Navy MBTex) during that time. OTOH the car did need a bunch of service work (carbs, radiator, etc.).

Yes thats true I forgot about the "maintanance included" situation of the newer cars
I have driven the 220 and I agree its a great car.....that handling is light years ahead of the 140...I actually got to test drive one pretty agressively and I took corners that made me feel like I was in a BMW 740.....ones that I would have not touched in my car.....but I will not be able to afford a 220 for a few years as I am not a lease buyer.....but I will be interested to see what the reliability and resale of the 220 turn out to be
As I know,at least in my market,they are selling for sticker.

As for the costs to repair maybe MB has made the high tech items ultra realiable...hopefully so,because I don;t see those items being a cheap fix

Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Warren wrote:
>As for the costs to repair maybe MB has made the high tech >items ultra realiable...hopefully so,because I don;t see those >items being a cheap fix

Amen to that. The ADS especially. That could be the 220 equivalent of the evaporator core if it proves failure-prone.
Not to mention, the MY2000's have a known issue of less than adequate AC in hot climates.

Sure hope MB have got these things right. They got the incredibly complicated top mechanism on the SLK down pat though...no reason to think DCAG can't make the other high tech systems reliable too.

. . some interesting reading about 'quality' or the lack of it!
 

What was that about "quality" in today's MB autos? http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm

Do you still think that the long term "reliability" of the newer autos is better than in the older autos?
A clue: "YES" is NOT a valid answer! :D

Sorry JimF...
 

Both your post and the article you linked to are sadly lacking in real evidence for the hypothesis that "new MB's interior materials are ****e." much less that even if this hypothesis were proved it would mean the cars aren't reliable/won't hold value. Thus no evidence about the cars' overall LT reliability is even adduced by your post.

Willing to listen to arguments...even agree with some of your assertions...but that post didn't prove any points.

Friend at work just got an '02 540i. While it's a beautiful car (and wicked fast) the interior fit/finish are a step below my '01 W220. What other 2002 cars are better than the 220? The Bentley? Nicer wood and leather maybe but driveability and maintenance...fuhgedaboudit. New 7 series...not.

Was the W140 a tour-de-force of auto building in its day? Unquestionably. Does the fact DCAG changed some interior materials "prove" that the 220 is overall inferior to the 140? I don't think so. The engines are all upgraded (more power, better mileage, lower emissions, less maintenance) and the new car has many more standard safety features and generally better performance.

I agree with Midwest

there are a few questions I would like to ask the author of that article right after I show my $20K(warranty) worth or repairs I have had with my 140 and I need to call today by the way to make another service appointment...also I would like to address the issue of price to the author...could the new S-Class be built with quality materials...sure for 30K more!!....I think cars have to be built for the market and I don't think the market would accept another 140 type car with a price be damned strategy
Lexus has proved that a car with an nicely done interior(not top of the line)that is very reliable from a nice dealer with good service will sell....I can almost bet that Mercedes paid 20 times the warranty claims that Lexus did on the LS400...a mistake I am sure they don't want to repeat

but hey for those who want the ultimate qualityI guess you can wait for the Maybach......and pay $150K or more...wonder if it will be reliable?



Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

Although I can't PROVE that the author is correct in all of his assertions, unfortunately I'm NOT shocked that it was written... I don't know about the comparisons with the other vehicle models but as far as the differences between the materials of the newer MB's as opposed to the older MB's I kinda think that MB HAS skimped slightly on the quality of parts,etc they use. I've got a few 115's and a 126 that are STILL bulletproof and ALL of the materials are STILL in tact after in some instances over 20 years, whereas I've had a NEW S-Class that after 2 years was more of a pain replacing this and that going out every 3 months (even though it was warrantied). My 86 560 SEL only had a total of 2 warranty covered problems done since 89 which was 3 years later after the orig owner bought it which was an amp for the cruise control,rear window switch. Since I had it besides the regular maint, I've only HAD to replace another rear window switch for $14 because it didn't light when I turned on the lights (although it still rolled up the window). My then new S class would have something going out all of the time and two of my buddies that have S600's have the same problem (not with the engines per se but interior electronics,check lights,function buttons breaking from use.They and another friend with a new ML always say they wish they could get a nice "old school" benz like mine because of the issues witht their new ones. My buddy even gave the ML to his wife and got a Lexus 430! I think that realistically, MB is just trying to keep up with demand for the "racy yet refined" look and of course to lighten the load you have to use lighter parts (which are cheaper) and cutting costs of materials means that yes, some of it will seem "cheezy". Too bad the $ of the cars still go up while they pay less but hey that's business and you can't be mad.I'd say, if you don't like it,buy another car or just shut up and drive:D Hell if you can spend a million to make a billion, go for it. MB has the "prestige" and legendary history of the "old school" engineering from their predecessor cars that set standards that will ALWAYS remain in the minds of their faithful or wannabe owners that would damn near kill to drive one and wouldn't give a flip if they had to have "warranty" work done to their vehicle twice a week for the rest of their lives... overall they ARE among the BEST of the best and if you can overlook little crap like a cup holder,or plastic flip handle in your trunk (you shouldn't have to go into your trunk THAT much to use that thing anyway):cool: you should be alright.I think I heard that the germans didn't think you should drink in your automobile and the cup holders were only an issue over here because we damn near eat an intire dinner in our automobiles so...there's my bicentennial minute-okay 5 minutes!!:D

DJNEWK2


What type of class did you have that you had all the problems with in two years?..you never eluded to the exact model
In regard to the old cars I agree the materials were top notch...but with the newer cars you have so much more complexity and by nature that usually means more problems....consider the year 560SEL that you own..I am sure if you had the same year 300SDL you would have spent less on maintenance and definitely less on fuel...as the SDL was a simpler car than the one you own...so why didn't you buy and SDL rather than the SEL....more power ,more features,better stereo..etc..etc

with the newer cars you get better acceleration,handling,a multitude of airbags and finally a good stereo(well for MB anyway)

so there you have the law of averages...more complexity ..more probelms....but you could always get a 240D....if you truly want bulletproof


my .002


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

Mine was an S500 and it wasn't so much a BAD car, its just that I'm personally a fan of the older MB's because you see the newer ones all over the place and it gets to the point that I'd see em all over the highway like civics! When I park my "classics" next to a newer benz, it would get more compliments than the new one because the new one was so "hum-drum" in atlanta. I like the fact that you can't just walk into any showroom and pick up any of my cars (and look THAT good) so I just drive em around with the chrome shining and the paint sparkling!:cool: I never pass up a good deal so that was the reason I got the S500...at the same time, I got bored with it and made more than I paid for it and as for the 560, got it for next to nothing and have enjoyed the fact that I can take a fraction of what I would pay a month on a note to do mods to my 560 which I have... So far she's had 18,19, and 20 inch wheels and my bodykits on the way... The bodykit I'm putting on her is here: http://www.waldusa.com
just click on the 126 kit and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about when I say that I like driving a "rare" looking MB that you can't just get at the dealer:cool:

MidwestMB, your arguments don't hold water!
 

You say that my generalized assertions using third party sources are no good and you defend this by use of personalized arguments about your 2001 car or "a friends"! Talk about flawed logic, you take the cake.

MwMB, you are judging an 7-8 year old car by using YOUR new 2001 car, saying that; Does the fact DCAG changed some interior materials "prove" that the 220 is overall inferior to the 140? I don't think so. So because MwMB says so, it's gospel? If the short term quality is poor, it has a definite effect on the LT reliability!

That was bad enough but then you say: The engines are all upgraded (more power, better mileage, lower emissions, less maintenance) and the new car has many more standard safety features and generally better performance. Since when does better performance conclusively point to LT reliability! Obviously, you don't understand that.

You need to realize that you are NOT in a position to make this call, certainly by using your present-day-arguments. Wait 7-8 years and then we can compare the two cars overall reliability.

But I'm sure you will not!

This argument is as old as the hills.

Back in 1986, many of our local MB faithful were writing everyday to MB Canada lamenting the lack of quality in the new W124 300E. The called it plasticky and tinny. They pointed out it's complexity (ABS, air bags) and cried that the DIY group had been left behind. Of course, today, many pine for the "good 'ol W124" and denounce the W210.

The W140 and W220 are very dissimilar cars. One thing we have to keep in mind was the sales disaster that the W140 was. It never came close to selling the kind of volume that the W126 did, and Mercedes struggled with the model, trying to make money on it. I'm certain they vowed not to make the same error with the W220. And that's why the W220 is nothing like the W140.

I like the W140. It's handsome, imposing, and drives like no other car, including the W220. Paragon of reliability? Huh? Even the most devout W140 fan would have to admit that the W140 is one hulluva expensive car to maintain out of warranty. If you want Maytag reliability, buy a Corolla. Long term operating costs for the Lexus V-8 cars are as high/higher than the comparable MB.

Is the W220 better? We don't know. Time will tell. The one thing I do know is that both our local dealers love them, as they sell MUCH better than any model year of the W140 did. And with three model years on the road, I haven't seen any disassembled in the shop waiting for parts, like I did the W140 cars.

One thing that free-market proponents always talk about is the concept of "voting with dollars." Well, so far, the W220 is winning that battle of the W140/W220 war.

"Long term operating costs for the Lexus V-8 cars are as high/higher than the comparable MB."

John are you sure about this statement?......is a 140 a comparable MB?...if so I am sure you are wrong

I am sure the 126 outsold the 140...but I think some were so put off by the 140's price...and then 126 didn't have the Lexus LS400 to compete with for the most part...I think the LS 400 completely shook up the price/value equation and made people seriously look at MB's "price be damned " strategy ...and at the same time he comes MB with the introduction of the 140...at a price that was in the stratosphere...so I think you need to consider market conditions
If the 220 had been introduced as a huge quality of materials improvement over the 140 I think the price would have been 25-35K more money....I think at that price sales would have been affected negatively

another factor here is so many of the early 140's had so many problems right off the bat....I think many people believed that a car at that price should have been better prepared for market than that....and I think there was a certain faction that thought the car was also overpriced.

I am not sure of the costs of Lexus repairs...but I am almost certain of two things..and I assumeing cars that have been taken care of

1. A 1992 LS400 has not had nearly the shoptime of my 1992 300SD
2. A LS400 has not cost nearly as much for repair as my 300SD

and btw I in a somewhat bad mood since it is again shoptime for my vehicle

Well, I read an article from a Top Gear Magazine in UK, that the
140 car is so huge yet the most unsuccessful MB everbuild, They offered hundreds people to test drive those cars for free, only 5-15 showed up to take the free offer. I guess MB would never build a car like W140 ever under Benz name.Well, just an article that I read, there are still a lot more negative comments about 140 that I did not state. For the quality of the 220, we just can wait for another 5-7 years and see what happened, I am sure 220 will sell more than 140 as it is cheaper and more attractive.
Just an opinion.


Donny

Long term operating costs for the LS400 are very close to the W140. I'm including depreciation, which is a much bigger hit on the Lexus than the MB.

Also, high-mileage Lexus maintenance costs are staggering. Timing chains and suspension repairs are huge costs, well into the thousands of dollars. I believe the timing chain labour charge on the Toyota V-8 is around 40 or so hours.

Infiniti is worse.

There are plenty of 1995 Lexus LS400's on dealer lots right now here for around $35,000. It was around $90K new. A 1995 S320 sold for about $90K, and sells today for about $45K (high mileage) to $50K (dealer lot, Signature Warranty). That $15,000 less depreciation covers a lot of repairs....

It's the same story on the ES300. Equipped like my C230, an ES300 was about $50K. My car was $44K. Today, a nice 1998 C230 sells for about $28K. The Lexus sells for $25K. The additional cost so far is $9000, including depreciation and additional inital price.

That $9000 will go along way to paying any higher repair costs that my MB might have over the Lexus.

You are right about the W140 being overpriced. And that's why the W220 is so different from it. They needed to reel in costs (including warranty repairs) and make the car good value. Even rich folks don't like getting "taken."

The tone of this thread has become a "is the W220 a worthy successor to the W140" argument.

I think it is. It is meeting MB's sales goals. It's lighter, and is a closer match to the BMW in terms of driving dynamics. Every car mag has proclaimed it a clear winner over the 7-series and Lexus rivals.

And to MB's credit, price has become a strong part of their sales strategy. Today (not sure about US MSRP) an LS430 is priced within a couple thousand of an S430LWB.

I think the new crop of MB cars, the W203 and W220, are setting the tone for the future of MB. Good value, excellent initial quality (time will tell on long term reliability) and handsome looks with clean lines.

I think MB has a vision of the world that some like Porsche might not. Porsche is on a roll right now, but with the price of their Boxster going up almost daily (A "regular" Boxster is priced about the same as the SLK32...) and the idiotic Cayenne on the horizon, I have to wonder. Porsche just about went bankrupt in the last recession ignoring the economic conditions. They didn't have any reasonably priced models, catering only to the super-wealthy. MB learned their lesson.

Long ago, a 911 was slightly more expensive than the Corvette. I think it's about 80% higher today. We'll see soon...

1 + 1 = 2
 

It is just obvious: buy a +100k 10-year old W140 and your are putting yourself in the position of spending a lot of $$$ to keep it running right.

But, what other vehicle with the same characteristics is absolutely maintenance free??? I know: a cheap Corolla is not going to ruin your vacation fund for an evap core change, but, is like mixing apples and oranges; the Corolla is NEVER going to provide you with the ride, handling and safety of a W140, period!

If you want a worry-free M.B. get a 1985 W123 300D with less than 25,000 miles on it and in pristine condition, if you can...

Or maybe this will sound interesting to W126 lovers: the local dearlership has two nice examples. First: a 1991 300SE with only 14,000 registered miles on the clock, not to many extras, but the car looks better than new. Second: a 1990 300SEL (previously owned by the Russian Embassy), full of extras including the independent rear electric bucket seats and sunshade, with only 35,000 miles on it.

Remember the old axiom: If something is there that could go wrong, it definitely will. If all the electronic marvels in the W220 are as well sorted out as your regular home-PC, well, I need to say no more... ... ...


A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

MwMB and all particpants of this thread!
 

You should see by now that drawing generalized conclusions based on specific cases is flawed! It's poor logic but it's done all the time.
The only way to arrive at a legitimate conclusion (or failure trend) is to get all MB service records for that production year and analyze it for failure trends and for total cost of ownership.

But even this is not enough, because after standard warranty runs out, many MB owners go to independent shops for service. That, of course, leaves a big disconnect.

If I use my car (S500cpe) as an example, it has been the lowest cost of ownership of any MB that I've owned! Is that valid? Yes, since my car is seven (7) years old and I have the complete service history for it since 1994.

The only things that 'failed' were (from 0 to 81,500 miles):
1) Steering box leak that was re-built and, after another 5K miles, was replaced because it was still leaking,
2) Seat belts (SRS light) indication due to bad sensor,
3) Driver sided seat belt extender was bad and replaced,
4) Rear view mirror got busted and replaced,
5) Bad lower control arm replaced.

Since I purchased it up to todays miles (99K);
1) DI ignition module failed (replace by myself for $225 using junk yard part).
2) Driver's door actuator lever arm ($1.39 metal rod) that I replaced.
3) Rear license plate lights out due to pinched and broken wire in harness. Fixed with a 'wire nut'.
4) Replaced the motor mounts. Got parts from Ebay for $50!

That's it!

Can we now generalize and say that all W140's are low maintenance? Of course not! One can not draw a valid generalized conclusion from any specific case or cases.

But, as far as I'm concerned, this car has proven to have the lowest cost of ownership as measured against all of my previous MBs (190E, 300E, E320). My 190E was a money sink! Both "E"s were next. My W140 is a great operating, low maintence car with LT reliability!

Congrats!
 

JimF...you own a gem of an MB. Glad to hear it. Hope our W220 is as good. My 1995 W202 was essentially a zero-maint car for 3 yrs/22k mls so have exper w/low maint MBs

well in regard to maintenace costs I can say that my 140 has been the most expensive car(to maintain) that I have ever owned.I previously owned a 1985 300SD then I 1992 300D 2.5...the 300D 2.5 was by the far the most reliable I think I have ever owned.in 131K of driving all I replaved were glow plugs and a regular....now the 140(current car) has had
1.New instrument cluster(MB paid half..original owner paid half)
2.Two evap core jobs(one in 1997 and one in 2001)
3. Blower resistor
4. Closing assist pump
5. Climate control pushbutton unit
6. New Engine(MB rebuilt longblock assembly)
7.Climate control vacuum switch(this has been twice in the last 4 months)

I think total repair to my car in the past 3 years is about 20K..most of it thank god was warranty
All work done at the dealer by a tech who came from Fletcher Jones MB so he is considered the most competent tech there.
He has told me that all the problems that I have had are all very common in the 140
And I bought a 1 owner car with full MB dealer records...
so I would say that the maitenance issues with the 140 are generalized conclusions based on specific cases
Go to a dealer and ask a good tech who has worked on 140's about what they have seen ...I am sure they will all paint about the same story
In regard to some of the long term Lexus costs...I am not sure..but I can't imagine the costs being anywhere near a 140

Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

BMW also makes a W220. It is called the 7 series. Audi makes one too. Both are as well built and good to drive as the 220. The LS430 is good too. Point is all those cars are good and also they are the same. If you want the unique 140 feel, you have to maintain your 140 for another 6 years until (hopefully) MB replaces the 220 with the 141. Of course a 140 is expensive to maintain, and a 220 too when it comes out of warranty. A luxury property is expensive too. You get what you pay for.

I honesty have no problem with the cost to repair the 140....what I have a problem with is the frequency of problem.A subject I have gone into great heated detail with my MB zone rep.Especially items that have needed to be replaced more than once that are not wear and tear items
Concerning the resale of these cars I find it interesting...the higher the model the worse the resale,with the 600's having terrible resale.There is a '97 model here in town with 48K miles that is selling for a third of what it stickered for!!Thats a 67% loss over sticker in 4 years ...and that is at am MB dealer...I can only wonder what the dealer gave the guy in trade..but it was probably a lease vehicle and the lesing company took the hit
It will be curious when the early models get to be worth 7-10K....Those evap cores and electrical probelms may remain unfixed and there may be a ton of junk 140's on the road that no one will touch

Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Talking about 7series, my brother in law has 1997 750il with 70K on it, just fixed and electrical unit for the navigation system around 2000 bucks and now he has to replace the brake rotors and pads with total labor of 1000 dollars. Its not including the 70K service which might be around 500? It is just too expensive as he does not have the warranty.


Donny

It's called BMW 750iL syndrome. Remember the late '80's 750? They were known as high dollar cars to service and maintain. Many problems, too. Today, a 1988 750iL is a nearly worthless car. The 735i held it's value better, but not nearly as well as the 5-series.

Look at it this way:

A 1998 C230 here retails for about $28,000. That's about 2/3 of it's original price. A 1998 S500 given the same relationship would sell for $125,000 * .667 = $83,300. Who buys an $83,000 used car? Not many people. A 1998 S500 sells for more like $65-70K. And the market is still VERY thin. It's an S-Class, allrighty, but it's still a USED car.

If the W140 gets a really bad rep, values will plunge, and you'll see them cheaper than E-Class, maybe even C-Class cars.

It's about total ownership costs. At one point, a used 3-series was about the same price as a 5-series, and both were worth more than a 7-series. Who wants to pay top dollar for a used car that's going to cost $10-15K a year to run? I'd want some seriously low price.

I would not be surprised at all if sometime in the future, the 1992-1995 W140's are selling for less than 1992-1995 W124 E-Class cars. If they become repair cost nightmares in the sense the 750 BMW was, even C-Class cars might be higher in price if they prove to be as durable and low-cost to run as they seem to be shaping up to be...

It's the long term ownership experience that matters. This is where the falls down in the stealer trying to take you to the cleaners at every maintenance opportunity. I was quoted USD 15,000 for work that my independent did for USD 1,500. Reading the list of major problems from another lister I am sure his dealer is "fixing" more than he is telling you about. They make money on warranty repairs too. By contrast, the Lexus after sales care is welcoming, competent and good value. Satisfaction = car + after sales. I have never driven a 220 but I imagine it is better if you sit in the front while the 140 is better if you sit in the back. I sit in the back almost all the time. I love the 140 but would prefer a C36 for personal use.
Ed

I don't think the 140 will ever be cheaper than the E or C class cars from the same period....if that were the case I think the values of the cars would already reflect that since the oldest 140's have been on the market for 10 years...my personal car was sold brand new in November 1991
You are right about the 750's...resale is terrible.....but if you look at the S600's they are not far behind the 750 in resale
The 600's were more than double the price of the S350/S320 but as a used car it seems there is only about a 10K difference
There is a '97 S600 coupe here in town at an MB dealer for 49,900 starmarked...as I recall that was a 135K car...thats 37%...and thats for a showroom car with the starmark warranty!!

in regard to independent shops..I would be happy to use one but in my market(Columbus Ohio) they don't exist to the level that I think there would be a tech that would be competent on a 140...if I still had my 85 SD then it would be another story in that regard

there is no way I would trust the independent shops I have seen in town on a job like an evap core


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Just curious - do you guys drive your 220/140/750 just by yourself most of the time? Or do you use the big guy for family transport and maybe use a smaller car for going to work/golf?

I am single so other than hauling some friends 5% of the time I drive alone.....but I don't care much for small cars...so the bigger cars serve my needs well




Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

I don't drive my 220 as much as I drove my 210. Honestly, from the inside, the 210 feel much bigger than the 220, but, once you parked your car, you can feel it, the 220 is still huge for me, lucky that parking distance sensor really help a lot. That is why I only drove the 220 if the destination has a good parking spot. Some people also can leave a ding on your car. I have like 4 dings on my 210.

There could be no doubt, the feeling of a 140 is unique, and not comparable no any one present car available.
It is really expensive to maintain properly and is not very dependable, can cause some serious headaches, but when you are used to drive any other car and then pick the 140 it's definitely another "chosse".
The w220 is truly a great car also, but just don´t compete in the same division, so is not comparable.
My w140 is almost 7 years and I must say that I already considered the trade for the w220, but when I go to the dealer and put both cars alongside and compare them I JUST CAN´T DO IT!!!


Folgado
93 S500
01 BMW Z3

Big and expensive cars always get hit harder in resale value. The same applies to cars of the same line-up. For example: if you want to get the most out of your money when is time to sale, buy the lowest priced car from each series:

C class: C180
E class: E200
S class: S280

If you want to get blasted by depreciation, then go the opposite way:

C class: C320
E class: E430
S class: S600

A W140 is expensive to run and expensive to mantain. Additional factors would be high taxes and high insurance costs. Finally, size is another drawback to most buyers.

An absolutely no-frills W140 like an S280, with a 5-speed manual transmition, cloth seats, no-A/C, no power sunroof, no power seats, no self-closing doors/trunk, no infrared key, et.al might be a more interesting car to buy used than a full-spec S600 with all power accessories fitted. Just think about it: six less cylinders to worry about, about 50 missing electric motors that can brake, and double the mileage per gallon, all in the same car chassis providing the same safe and supple ride.

That is why simpler, cheaper cars hold their value better.

A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

Right. A 1998 C230 retails for about $28,000 here. A 1998 C280, same condition is about $32,000. $4000? Yikes! The base price for a C230 in 1998 was $37,950 and the C280 was $49,995.

The twelve grand shrunk to four! And no, the C280 was not that much better equipped to account for the price difference. The only equipement difference was a driver's side power seat and standard Tex vs. cloth. A C230 with roof, heated seats and Tex was about $43,000 with delivery. A similarly equipped C280 was $54,000. Still $11,000!! That difference shrinks every year as the car ages.

The S-Class resale phenomenon
 

True about the fact that as time passes the resale values on the C230 and the C280 will come closer and closer. But, an interesting twist is that there will be a point in time that the C230 will actually be worth MORE than the C280 in the used car market (considering that both cars are in very similar shape).

The S-Class W140 it is right now suffering an interesting phenomenon in Germany and most countries where big and thristy engines are avoided: a similar condition/model year/mileage S320 is MORE EXPENSIVE than an S430/S500. And this weird occurence happens even taking into account that usually an S430/S500 is much better equipped than an S320.

As times passes by, things gets much worse: just look in the trade and confirm that a W126 300SE/SEL, no mattter what condition or shape, will get more money than a same model year 560SE/SEL.

A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

That is why simpler, cheaper cars hold their value better. ....

I don't agree with that statement from an ealier statement..if that was true I think Hyundai should have incredible resale value..


In regard to a 126 300SE surpasing a comparable 560 SEL in value....if the value of today;s cars of the same condition are looked at I think you will find this not to be the case...the 300SE of say a 1990 vintage have gotten really cheap..in fact not much more than the 124 300E of the same year

In regard to a no frills 140...why would someone want that?...Is one reason you buy a luxury car is to have the later conveniences and safety features.....sure you will pay more for maintenance but just think about the guy who took the initial hit in resale....I am certain the second buyer,even with more maintanance issues comes out a head


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Hyundia is not a good example. We're talking about comparing the resale values of various Mercedes cars.

The BMW example is used to show what can happen to resale if a model is too costly to maintain in the long term. The 750 is one of the least expensive used BMW's on the market.

Your example of the W126 300SE and W124 300E being close in price is right. The gap at MSRP has vaporized. In fact, the 190E 2.6 prices are not much lower either.

There is only so much money a 13 year old Mercedes sedan is going to be worth, regardless of original price. They were produced in relatively large numbers, and are at a point in their lives where it could cost tons of money to keep them up.

Also, to the casual observer, there is little difference in late 1980's models as fars as cache goes. Your neighbour probably won't come over and gush over your 1989 560SEL knowing it was the flagship in it's day. They are just as likely to acknowledge a 300E.

During hard ecomomic times, or during high gasoline prices, smaller more economical cars may sell for more than their more expensive stablemates. We're not talking about a Hyundia Excel selling for more than an S500. But, in terms of percentage, a car like a Toyota Corolla may hold a larger percentage of it's original value.

The other factor is where you live. There might be a strong market for used S-Class cars in California. Not in my neck of the woods. Most people that can afford a $75,000 used car, can afford a $100,000 new one. Used S-Class cars are heavily discounted in order to actually get them into the used market. A used 1998 C230 will retail for about 70% of it's MSRP, but a 1998 S500 sells for about 55% of it's MSRP.

At under $30K, there are WAY more buyers for the used C-Class than for the nearly $70K (originally $125K) used S500.

Also, the used S500 competes with a new E320, where the used C-Class has no new Mercedes competitors.

I agree with you somewhat Black Mercedes.....couple of points I have......in regard to your comparason of 98 C230 and 98 S500...I think its fair to say that the S500 sold for a heavier discount from the sticker price than the C230,therefore your percentage of resale needs to be based on actual transaction prices rather than sticker. I remember years ago a dealer in the Dallas where I lived claimed they were the largest Infiniti dealer in the world...they used to run ads that advertised 15K off the sticker of a new Q45...now the Q's don't have great resale value but when you factor in the fact that people were paying 37K not 52K(sticker) that makes a big difference when you calculate resale..the 140's sold for a quite a discount I know from at least the 97 model year...so the $93K 98 S500 should have actually sold for about $79K...three years later in good condition its worth almost 50K.....not the greatest...but a lot better than many other cars...62% after 36 months
In regard to cache...I always think of a statement that says..."those that you would like to impress...you can't "...reason being they already have a brand new 220 parked in the driveway and traded in their 80's era 560 15 years ago


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

w140 prices
 

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I always wanted a 92 400se but ended up with a 500e. MY brother has an s320 (92) and has the same catalog of woes I see here . I have all the service docs on my car and to date it has been almost trouble free.
I dont know if any of you have access to Auction pricing, but right now there is a flood of W140 cars available, and they are going in the low $20k range.. I assume the dealers know a substantial cushion will be needed on these cars for potential problems.
Best wishes to all.

For all with W140's
 

Year-1993
Color-Obsidion Black/Charcoal Leather
Miles-101,384
Special Options- My S-class has every available option. I love this car. I'm 16, (My dad bought a S500 Grand Edition and gave me his old 300) and would not sell this car for the world. My dad had it specialy orderd in '93 and kept it since. It has the power rear bench seat, Voice activated phone, Heated front and Rear seats, Power rear headrests', Charcoal Filter, 4-zone climate control, and 12-disc CD changer, ASR Acceleration Slip Control, Chrome 16" wheels, wood and leather trimed steering wheel and shift knob. AND ITS A SHORT WHEELBASE! The only option it lacks is ADS (The Adaptive Damping System), and thats because they didnt have ADS as a "special order" option in 93'. The 500 has ADS, and I prefer my car better. By the way, am I the only one who thinks the 11-speaker Bose Betta II Sound system is the best system ever put into a car?

W220 returned to dealer
 

I guess it would be interesting to those who have followed this thread to know that my friend who bought a W220 a few months back (he also owns a W140, as I mentioned a few posts back) return it to the dealer for a full refund.

Basically, his complaints were:

1/- The W220 is half the car the W140 is.

2/- The W220's bottom seat compartment is extremely uncomfortable for his usual driving position.

3/- The W220, in the few weeks he owned it, had to visit the service department about six times (including repairs for a xenon headlight that burned constantly, erroneous or constant false messages from the computer, plus a serious ABC suspension failure).

4/- The paint faded very fast without reason.

On the other hand, his W140 has performed flawlessly.

You may draw up your own conclusions again about the issue of which series is better (W140-W220).

He is now waiting for a pristine condition W140 to show up at the used car department to acquire as a second car instead of the brand new W220 he bought.

A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995