almost 2/3 of the charges was for the evap core....$650 part and 28 hours of labor at $75.00 per hour

and if you have seen that evap job done I would only trust that to a dealer or a VERY VERY good independent as they have to take the car down to the bare metal in the dash area to get to it...the margin of error in that job has to be huge...and by the way the evap was the second one that was done on my car...the original owner had it done at MB of Morristown NJ(where the car was originally bought and serviced) at about 50K....My car is now out of warranty but I have had several heated discussions with my MB zone rep and he very aware of the service issues with my vehicle...especially repairs that have been done more than once on non wear and tear items...the most recent being an AC switchover valve that was replaced May 2001 and again in September 2001 because the airflow would suddenly stop blowing though the dash vents afetr about 40 mins or operation


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Threads like this are the reason I am on my fourth 126 car. I would like to upgrade to a W140, but I'm not sure there is any good alternative besides spending top dollar on a 3 year old car with a warranty. What mileage do all these problems start occuring? How foolish would it be to buy a 1992 or 1993 140 with 100k on it for $20,000?

Let me get this straight...
 

You have a (presumably wonderful) 1988 MB 420SEL with only 47k miles on it. Awesome automobile, barely broken in.

You are correct that the only upgrade from there (in the S line) would be to a low miles 1998 or '99 S420, S500, or S600. (Or to a W220, but at a much higher price). You're also correct that, if you found such a car, you'd want a Starmark warranty for the whole time you plan to drive it.

The W140's are legendary for their maintenance expenses. OTOH they are also truly magnificent automobiles when running right.

If you're really interested, you might consider a lease on a late model Starmarked W140, with warranty to or past the lease end. Then, you'll know your total cash outlay going in. Friend of mine just did a deal like that. The car is beautiful and he has nothing to worry about if the dreaded $5k A/C repair hits.

MidwestMB...
 

So, basically, I'd have to spend over $40k to enjoy the same maintenance free service I should plan to get out of the car I already have. The 140 is updated and full of interior gadgets, but I don't see a dramatic improvement... maybe its just me (I kind of like springy seats, a huge steering wheel, and a transmission shift that can spill your coffee)

Financial Discussion:

I first test drove a 140 5 years and 2 W126's ago, back when I figured it would be the next car I would buy, and assumed I should be able to afford one. Boy was I wrong: I bought a 10 year old, near mint 420SEL with 120k in 1997 for $9000, the car listed for $53,050 new, which translates to paying 17% of MSRP. The car was one generation old.

vs.:

Its almost 2002 - so a 1992 400SE, with approximately 120k miles, which listed on the lot 10 years ago for $77,900 should be $13,243 assuming the same devaluation. ($77,900 x 17% = $13,243) The car is, like in the above example, one generation old. I have yet to find one less than $18,000 - and that gets you a real "rat" of a car; one which will undoubtedly require major work in the forseeable future.

Has anyone else considered this analysis before?

Re: MidwestMB...
 

It's flawed, as the market price is set by demand and supply. These relationships may be quite different than when you bought your W126.

Re: MidwestMB...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rich126


Has anyone else considered this analysis before?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's flawed, as the market price is set by demand and supply. These relationships may be quite different than when you bought your W126.



I'm not sure my analysis is at all flawed. My point is that the cars are selling for more than what their predecessors were sold for a few years earlier, thus making them not as good of a deal for used car buyers.

Rich 126
 

1) Correct...you will spend upward of $40k cash (in my experience, about $46k min) including Starmark premium for a W140 that will last 5-7 years with a reasonable chance of no big non-wty maint.

2) I got a deal to pay $39k total, including all taxes, for 4 years lease of a S430, F/R heated seats, Nav system, rear side blinds, and CD chgr: ZERO maintenance costs, guaranteed for life of lease. No down pt. Buy car at end for $47k or walk away.

3) Same deal = pay $16k (lowball figure) for a 100k miles 1994 S500 and spend $23k on maint over the 4 year period (reasonable assumption given the car's history). Assumes one AC rebuild, one semi-major top end rebuild of engine, and routine maint plus contingency for other work.

4) My old boss had a 199s 600SEL with main bearing oil leak that was NEVER fixed despite numerous attempts.

Midwest,

If you find a 1994 S500 for 16K go ahead and call the tech for an appointment because it will probably need lots of AC and electrical work....so the 7-8K that you save by buying a car under market value will be spent anyway...and that is not including the possible paint and interior wear

Rich,

In regard to your pricing/value statement I think that the 140's hold value better than the 126 cars ...although the 140's had much higher sticker prices they were heavilly discounted ...I am not sure what the actual transaction prices of the 126 were when they were new...but in case if you look at the actual transaction prices of the cars the 140 may have been a better value new(..?)

to me,as I have owned both,the 140 is a definite improvement and evolution over the 126...the car,to me,gives you the feeling that they spared no expense in the materials of the car....and of couse the price or repairs reflects that...my personal car had a window sticker of a little over $72K and it was originally bought in December 1991 so it was one of the early ones and that in itself may be the reason I have had ALL the problems associated with this series. Maybe before any of the updates were done

I am curious as to the initial reliability of the new 220...as I have heard some stories from the tech at the dealer that works on mine about $1000 seat computers....so it seems the repair cost if anything will be more than the 140 as the 220 is an electronic marvel
but with evolution of the S class you probably get a car that is safer as it has more features and that is important to me...which is why I will be looking at newer vehicles because I see merit in systems like the side/curtian airbags and ESP and brake assist


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Repair cost 220 v 140
 

Jury is still out. Maybe MB have made the high-tech bits more reliable and/or easier to service. Remember, MBUSA has gone to free maintenance (including oil changes and other scheduled service) during wty period for all 2000 and post MY. OTOH, 220 includes many standard very high tech features (ADS, COMAND, etc.) that will undoubtedly entail much labor and costly parts to fix if they break.

Disagree that 220 is not stylish or attractive...on the contrary I now think it's better looking (albeit not by much) than the 140.
It's a dream to drive, the COMAND system is fine once you learn how to use it, and everyone loves riding in the car.

Reliability and durability - we will see how the 220 holds up. As noted in earlier post, both my 210 and 163 have had significant (warranty-paid) component failures. No repairs yet on my R170 but we hardly drive it (2100 miles in 7 months).

In any case, refer to the post on pages 3-5....MB used to build cars to a quality point, damn the build cost and selling price...grandma had a 1972 MB250 that she drove for 10 years and the interior and exterior showed NO visible wear (Nautical Blue/Navy MBTex) during that time. OTOH the car did need a bunch of service work (carbs, radiator, etc.).

Yes thats true I forgot about the "maintanance included" situation of the newer cars
I have driven the 220 and I agree its a great car.....that handling is light years ahead of the 140...I actually got to test drive one pretty agressively and I took corners that made me feel like I was in a BMW 740.....ones that I would have not touched in my car.....but I will not be able to afford a 220 for a few years as I am not a lease buyer.....but I will be interested to see what the reliability and resale of the 220 turn out to be
As I know,at least in my market,they are selling for sticker.

As for the costs to repair maybe MB has made the high tech items ultra realiable...hopefully so,because I don;t see those items being a cheap fix

Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1628/82440-3.jpg

Warren wrote:
>As for the costs to repair maybe MB has made the high tech >items ultra realiable...hopefully so,because I don;t see those >items being a cheap fix

Amen to that. The ADS especially. That could be the 220 equivalent of the evaporator core if it proves failure-prone.
Not to mention, the MY2000's have a known issue of less than adequate AC in hot climates.

Sure hope MB have got these things right. They got the incredibly complicated top mechanism on the SLK down pat though...no reason to think DCAG can't make the other high tech systems reliable too.

. . some interesting reading about 'quality' or the lack of it!
 

What was that about "quality" in today's MB autos? http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm

Do you still think that the long term "reliability" of the newer autos is better than in the older autos?
A clue: "YES" is NOT a valid answer! :D

Sorry JimF...
 

Both your post and the article you linked to are sadly lacking in real evidence for the hypothesis that "new MB's interior materials are ****e." much less that even if this hypothesis were proved it would mean the cars aren't reliable/won't hold value. Thus no evidence about the cars' overall LT reliability is even adduced by your post.

Willing to listen to arguments...even agree with some of your assertions...but that post didn't prove any points.

Friend at work just got an '02 540i. While it's a beautiful car (and wicked fast) the interior fit/finish are a step below my '01 W220. What other 2002 cars are better than the 220? The Bentley? Nicer wood and leather maybe but driveability and maintenance...fuhgedaboudit. New 7 series...not.

Was the W140 a tour-de-force of auto building in its day? Unquestionably. Does the fact DCAG changed some interior materials "prove" that the 220 is overall inferior to the 140? I don't think so. The engines are all upgraded (more power, better mileage, lower emissions, less maintenance) and the new car has many more standard safety features and generally better performance.

I agree with Midwest

there are a few questions I would like to ask the author of that article right after I show my $20K(warranty) worth or repairs I have had with my 140 and I need to call today by the way to make another service appointment...also I would like to address the issue of price to the author...could the new S-Class be built with quality materials...sure for 30K more!!....I think cars have to be built for the market and I don't think the market would accept another 140 type car with a price be damned strategy
Lexus has proved that a car with an nicely done interior(not top of the line)that is very reliable from a nice dealer with good service will sell....I can almost bet that Mercedes paid 20 times the warranty claims that Lexus did on the LS400...a mistake I am sure they don't want to repeat

but hey for those who want the ultimate qualityI guess you can wait for the Maybach......and pay $150K or more...wonder if it will be reliable?



Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

Although I can't PROVE that the author is correct in all of his assertions, unfortunately I'm NOT shocked that it was written... I don't know about the comparisons with the other vehicle models but as far as the differences between the materials of the newer MB's as opposed to the older MB's I kinda think that MB HAS skimped slightly on the quality of parts,etc they use. I've got a few 115's and a 126 that are STILL bulletproof and ALL of the materials are STILL in tact after in some instances over 20 years, whereas I've had a NEW S-Class that after 2 years was more of a pain replacing this and that going out every 3 months (even though it was warrantied). My 86 560 SEL only had a total of 2 warranty covered problems done since 89 which was 3 years later after the orig owner bought it which was an amp for the cruise control,rear window switch. Since I had it besides the regular maint, I've only HAD to replace another rear window switch for $14 because it didn't light when I turned on the lights (although it still rolled up the window). My then new S class would have something going out all of the time and two of my buddies that have S600's have the same problem (not with the engines per se but interior electronics,check lights,function buttons breaking from use.They and another friend with a new ML always say they wish they could get a nice "old school" benz like mine because of the issues witht their new ones. My buddy even gave the ML to his wife and got a Lexus 430! I think that realistically, MB is just trying to keep up with demand for the "racy yet refined" look and of course to lighten the load you have to use lighter parts (which are cheaper) and cutting costs of materials means that yes, some of it will seem "cheezy". Too bad the $ of the cars still go up while they pay less but hey that's business and you can't be mad.I'd say, if you don't like it,buy another car or just shut up and drive:D Hell if you can spend a million to make a billion, go for it. MB has the "prestige" and legendary history of the "old school" engineering from their predecessor cars that set standards that will ALWAYS remain in the minds of their faithful or wannabe owners that would damn near kill to drive one and wouldn't give a flip if they had to have "warranty" work done to their vehicle twice a week for the rest of their lives... overall they ARE among the BEST of the best and if you can overlook little crap like a cup holder,or plastic flip handle in your trunk (you shouldn't have to go into your trunk THAT much to use that thing anyway):cool: you should be alright.I think I heard that the germans didn't think you should drink in your automobile and the cup holders were only an issue over here because we damn near eat an intire dinner in our automobiles so...there's my bicentennial minute-okay 5 minutes!!:D