Insurance Arguments over E500 Value
 

Somebody crashed into the front of my 94 E500 this morning while we were sitting at a red light. Nobody got hurt, but the crashing car was a Toyota Sequoia urban assault vehicle and its bumper was higher than mine and ended up a foot or two into the hood. I can't open the hood at the moment and can't totally assess the damage, but I know the grill, lights, bumper, hood, at least one fender, radiator, fans, and probably the steering pump are trashed. My fear is the insurance people will offer me the KBB $6-7k range and total the car out and I won't be able to fix it for that.

I'm wondering if anybody out here has been in a similar situation with an older MB and had any luck bucking the KBB and Edmunds, et al valuation scales with a rarity/collectibility argument and how they went about demonstrating a higher value.

One professional/collector of 500Es has offered to talk to the adjusters, but I'm hopeful that I can find someone who has actually fought this fight and find out how it went.

Thanks,
Mark

Been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

I got rear ended by an Explorer whos bumper was higher than mine. Trashed the whole rear end (both quarters, trunk w/spolier lights … etc). I had to go through 3 or 4 adjusters before I got to one who would listen.

First thing, do your research. Go through Ebay, want ads… etc to see what they are going for. Similar mileage, maint .. etc. State Farm wanted to offer me $5k and I told them to stuff it. Show them your main records and everything else.

I had to eat a little of the repair cost (about $700 IIRC). I went out and found a clean salvage trunk/spoiler and my body shop took care of the rest. State Farm forked out about $4,500 to $5,000 (not sure as it was several years ago) and I still have my car.

I got the right person and had the evidence to back my claim. I got lucky. You have nothing to loose if you fight them on it. As hard as it was, don’t antagonize them. The urge to b!tch slap the adjuster will be over whelming. Just breath deep and think of the car. Kill them with kindness and if that does not work …. Just leave the kindness part home.

Good luck.

edit: If you end up eating part of the loss, make sure that the insurance company does not give you a salvage title and does not list the car as salvage anywhere. That was a big part of my fight with State Farm. They wanted to sell me the car back as salvage and I told them no, this was just a value issue and that if they were going to give me $x.xx to fix the car I would get it fixed (they did not know about me getttiing the trunk my self) so State Farm said fine and gave me a clear title.

Your car has a NADA retail of $17,250. It would take one heck of a hard hit to total it out. The adjuster will most likely want to repair your car with your described damage. Unless the damage is over about $12-13K, then the car will most likely be repaired. I'm just guessing your damage estimate could be about $5-6K.

Don't forget--you can always get your insurance company involved--then later--the two insurance companies will subrogate the claim and you may very well get your deductible back. The point being, your insurance company is MORE likely to treat you better as you are their customer.

Good Luck, and I am sorry for your loss. At this point, finding a GOOD shop is the most important thing next to dealing with the adjuster(s).

-GH

Where did you find the NADA value? Both Kelly Blue Book and True Market Value came out significantly lower than that.

Try to bribe the adjuster. Works every time!

If your KBB came out at $6k-$7k as suggested in your first post you're doing something wrong - high teens is more like it.

."
 

Having comparable sales figures, obtained from Autotrader, craigslist, ebay, KBB, Edmunds, ads in the newspapers and so on never hurt, nor do extensive service records is a pretty good idea, too. It helps prove the fair market value of the car is what you claim it is.

However, when it is a special interest car, or a rare one, -- and I know EXACTLY what the E500 is!!!---by the way,--- you should SERIOUSLY consider hiring a professional automobile appraiser. Yes, it may actually cost you a few hundreds of dollars to have that done, but the results are usually inarguable, it is like an investment to do that sometimes, that will pay you back far higher than what the appraiser's fee cost.

A guy who owned a body shop and dealt with insurance adjusters (called adjusters because they "adjust" downwards the figures submitted by the policyholders and body shops, told me this a long time ago and I never forgot:

"It is much easier to start our by being really hard nosed and tough, and then easing up a little bit later, than to start out by being a nice guy and getting tougher aas you go along"

Wise advise, and I think it applies to MOST dealings in this life, and not just insurance adjusters.

As to the insurance adjusters, how do I know they are like that?

Because I used to be one of "they." :)

Unless your 500E is beat to death its worth $10k. Book value has got to be mid teens on it as said above.

Tell them the idiot they insured decided to hit a very expensive car.

It's all academic until the insurance company states its' case. One of our customers had his 1992 CE totaled. The insurance company started with a value of $7000,,,, he finally settled for $12,000. And his car was NOT very nice. I wouldn't have given him $4000 for it.

In the event they do want to do something like total out the car, what is the major drawback to getting a salvage title? Is it just a red flag making resale impossible?

"However, when it is a special interest car, or a rare one, -- and I know EXACTLY what the E500 is!!!---by the way,--- you should SERIOUSLY consider hiring a professional automobile appraiser. Yes, it may actually cost you a few hundreds of dollars to have that done, but the results are usually inarguable, it is like an investment to do that sometimes, that will pay you back far higher than what the appraiser's fee cost."

Where do you find a professional auto appraiser? Is that the same thing as an independent adjuster?

It's funny, I'm a lawyer and I work for an insurance company and just when you think you know a little bit about something, you find yourself in a situation which you proves you don't know much at all. I actually work in surety bonds, not car insurance, but after a while you think you know the business a bit.

An independent appraiser is TOTALLY different from an indpendent adjuster.

Independent adjusters are like independent contractors, hired by very small Insurance companies to adjust property, vehicle or casualty Insurance claims,
and sometimes by large insurance companies to cope with an overload of claims that need to be adjusted.

An independent appraiser is also an independent contractor, but think of them like Real Estate Appraisers. Their job is simply to assess the condition of something and arrive at a fair market value.

They are not hard to find. Some even do it online. Google is your friend.

Here are a few

maybe in Philadelphia to start

others, elsewhere.....

http://www.autoappraisal.com/locneast.htm

http://www.usaautoappraisers.com/appraiserfaqs.htm

http://www.automotiveappraisals.com/id10.html

http://www.accuratevalue.com/faq.html

If theTLV (Total loss valuation) results in a "totalled out car" your options are twofold


1. You are paid the fair market value of the car (less your deductible, if you are going through your own Insurance company or simply paid in full if being paid by the adverse party's insurance company. If liability on the other side is clear, such as if you were rear ended, always not your fault, you can ask your insurance to "waive your deductible". The deductible is ALWAYS waive in the event of a "cross insured loss" where both drivers in the accident have the same insurance company, because the Insurance Company would never sue itself


2. You want to buy back the totalled out car and fix it yourself. In those situations, which sometimes happens, the policy holder receives the fair market value LESS the deductible (as stated above) and LESS the salvage value, and then gets to have the car back, to try and fix.

The salvage value is what the market value of the totalled out car's "wreckage" would be worth to junkyards who would part out the car.
The insurance might ask a couple of them for bids to find out how much that would be..

In those situations, typically, the policy holder MUST sign over the title of the car to the Insurance company, which in turn "sells" the car back to the policyholder under the conditions mentioned above, and then the owner tows or drives (if it is a "driveable total loss") away.

Salvage title cars are totalled out ones due to collision damage which are later repaired, cars that have been stolen and recovered, or stripped, or were in floods, or other situations.

In many or most cases salvage title cars are worth on the open market about 50% less than non salvage title cars.

Flood cars, and seriously damaged but repaired cars especially, are worth little on the market because basically, they are junk that was put back on the road.

Sometimes theft returns or a "light strip" can be a bargain for savvy rebuilders or people who can fix them with parts bought cheaply.

People are wary of salvage cars because a lot of fraud invlving "washed" salvage titles when cars are re registered in several successive states to go from a salvage to a clean title.

Depending on the situation, they can be a good or an awful deal, for a buyer or a seller.

But the salvage title cars are ALWAYS worth less, all other things being equal.
I hope that helps.

A friend who is a 500E valuation expert. & a very funny story
 

If you wish, orif it comes to that, I have a close friend with a shop who is a 1992-1995 E500/500E fanatic and expert who could probably help you greatly in discussing the values of these cars, salvage or not.

He owns three of them personally, one of which is a Katrina flood 500E that he bought and is rebuilding.

He scours the internet and other sources, and is a keen and constant observer of the current values and trends of the prices of the E500 and 500E.

He locates for his customers, and buys and sells the best examples of them on a constant basis.

You can PM me if you would like to be put in touch with him

Many of the very very best ones are bought and sold among members of the enthusiast fourms that cater to them. Often the owners never even advertise them on the market, and they want the cars to go to a caring buyer who will take care of their "baby"

I personally feel that all things considered theE500/500E are probably the best sedans Mercedes Benz EVER made. They have a fanatic cult following.
I have driven one. I know what it can do. I would almost sell my soul to own one of them.

Just like the there is a hard core base of BMW followers who maintain that the only real BMW is the 2002, there is a lunatic fringe within that subset who feel the only real BMW 2002 is the 2002 tii, and so it is with Mercedes enthusaists.

One such person owns an E500, which he debadged, BUT place a custom chromed license plate frame on the car that read PORSCHE.

This inevitably elicited one of just two reactions from passersby and in traffic. Either reaction was HIGHLY amusing. Some people would scratch their heads and ask,"What is this, is there some mistake"? Others would merely nod, and give him an amused, wry and knowing grin.

My friend is another such person. He related to me that Porsche's long time marketing slogan was "Porsche - There is no substitute"

One of his E 500 sedans sports a discreet badge on the trunk which reads simply, "The Substitute":D:D:D:D

It is the the ultimate "in" joke for the 500E cognoscenti. You either get it or you don't. You are either on the bus or you are not on the bus.



You just gotta love this guy.:laugh3:

First off, when determining "book" value, go with NADA (not KBB). NADA stands for National Auto Dealers Association: so who do you think the figures favor in that book? Exactly, the dealers... so the prices are higher.

Also, this would be a totally different situation if the accident were your fault and you were dealing with YOUR insurance company. You have a "contract" with your insurance company. You've agreed to an annual premium based on the replacement value of your car as determined by "book" value. If you feel the car is worth more than "book" then you need to speak with your agent and pay a higher premium for a higher replacement cost.

You have no "contract" with this insurance company. They don't just owe you some arbitrary figure for your car, they need to make you whole. You had a perfectly functioning, well maintained car... now you don't! They need to either repair your car to the condition it was before their client destroyed it, or they need to buy you a comparable car.
(The words in bold are the most important.) Why should you have to comb through the classified ads, and ebay to find the car from a private seller? You should be able to get the replacement from a dealer. (so then we're talking RETAIL price)

If they offer a lowball figure, tell them to go ahead and find a replacement for that price. (they won't) And while they're doing that, you'll continue to drive the rental car they are providing. It's amazing how the prospect of them paying $40 a day while you or they hunt endlessly for a car that doesn't exist will motivate them to re-adjust their adjustment.

Good luck, and stick to your guns.

I dont know if this works any more, our El Dorato (Cad) was hit broadside by a bimbette putting on lipstick.
I never should have got out of the car, with glass in my hair, and should have taken myself to the emergency room. Her insurance wanted to use recycled parts, especially the door. They also wanted their body shop to do the work, my insurance agent wanted no part of their plan, so we had the car fixed at the Cadillac dealer, I paid the deductible, and they went for "subrocation", they got their money back minus $1000 I got a good repair.

The Insurance company NEVER has to "BUY you a comparable car". It does not work like that

How we wish it did.

Thanks, everybody, for the supportive comments and advice. I feel a little better equipped to deal with these people this week now. I did some research today, and have about 16 ads from autotrader and ebay to print out and show that the market value is somewhere north of $13-14k if
they don't want to take the NADA excellent condition value of ca. $17k.

I will spend some tomorrow morning phoning some people at collision shops about towing the car there. I do know one great collision shop where I think I can count on the guys to be my advocate with the adjusters. It's not a big shop. Does anyone think I'm better off going to one of the big collision shops that do a lot of BMW and Mercedes work or maybe a stealership? My concern at those places is that they really won't give a rat's ass about me and my car and won't help me push back on getting new parts instead of used, etc.

Thanks,
Mark

By the way, one of the things that really sucks about this is that I've only had the car for a month. Even in that short time, I became convinced that this is the best-driving car ever to cross my path. The only thing that came close for sheer control of the car and its trajectory was my second ever car, a 914-6.

just see what they want to offer you .. i was in an accident a year ago .. looked my value up on KBB and thats what i expected to get .. come to find out they went by dealership prices and what they would have gone for in the condition it was in .. i was happy with the offer ... dont be intimidated .. they are not the cops .. you have a little more say in what happens and what you think is fair as long as you have the paperwork to back it up

You kinda left out the part that you just got the car a month ago. I assume you paid the market price for it and therefore that's what you should get for it if its totaled. What did you pay? Sounds like you want more than what you paid for it.

Absoloutely correct about the dealer's indifference, though they would probaly use new parts, and could get them quicker than anyone else. Last place you should take a car like an E500 would be a dealer, for body work. E500 fenders are not the same as regular W124 fenders either.

Independent or Specialty Body shops, familiar with your type of car usually deal with a LOT of insurance work, too, and if you are lucky or smart you find one who is in your corner.

They may be able to deal with the special needs of your car, better than a shop unfamiliar with that model. The best of them would be also well skilled in identifying and avoiding the adjuster's short cuts and other ways which they employ to save the Insurance company money

Valuing total losses on a NEWLY acquired vehicle
 

That fact, previously undisclosed here, changes things a lot.

If the car is declared totalled, what would you say to this as a fair formula to arrive a valuation settlement: The purchase price you paid one month ago LESS 25 cents a mile for the number of miles you drove it?

Savvy lawyers hired in "Lemon Law" cases, get good settlements for their clients all the time using that formula. I know that personally.

If you do the numbers, would a settlement price based on that formula satisfy you, (if you had the paperwork to verify the mileage and price, one month ago)?

It would be pretty hard for an insurance company to challenge worth based on that formula. especially in a court of law

Keep in mind the 25 cents a mile is always a negotiable figure: if the adjuster accepts it, he may try and chisel it to 40 cents, to satisfy his company.

It is a big change from a Porsche 914 to a 500E. The 914 looks like a VW Karmann Ghia that has been worked over with the flat side of an axe!

I paid 11k for it. I don't want more than that, I just don't want them to insist on totalling the car and giving me the salvage title if the repairs are around 8 to 10k. I want the car and I want it repaired.

I only drove the car about 250 miles.

Obviously, the E500 is a much better looking car. It also is nice not to have the engine about six inches from your ears. I just mean the responsiveness of the car's suspension and steering on the 914 were similarly slot-car like and the torque-to-weight similarly makes you feel like you could drive up a tree at high speed or do one of those hollywood drawbridge jump scenes.

Well, a tidge of good news, the other driver's insurer, State Farm, has already accepted liability for the accident. I guess that since we were sitting at a red light, they couldn't say much different.

You can't logically make that assumption. Maybe there were extraordinary circumstances that affected the price (estate sale, seller moving out of town, seller lost job… needs money, etc.). Maybe the seller just didn’t know what the car was worth.

When the car was purchased, and for what price are immaterial. If he was able to negotiate or leverage a deal on the purchase, that’s his business – it in no way affects the value.

By that logic, if he bought it through an estate auction for $1000, that would be the value? Absolutely not!

And a very important point about retail value versus private party value: There is a certain amount of risk associated with buying any used car. Buying from a dealer minimizes that risk because you get some sort of warrantee – usually 30 days. But you pay for that reduction in risk. If you settle for the “private party” price you’re assuming an unreasonable amount of risk so that the insurance company can save a few bucks. Remember, you were sitting at a stoplight doing nothing wrong. Part of making you whole is NOT exposing you to an unreasonable degree of risk.

Another quick note: The insurance company is going to want you to sign off on the work, so they can close the claim quickly. There is no advantage to you by doing this. Let it lay for a few weeks or a month. Make sure no other damage crops up that is a result of the accident. Because once the claim is closed, you’re out of luck. Don't be unethical, but don't be stranded either.

Again, good luck.

My shop estimated $6-8k barring any big surprises. Looks like I may have to have the valuation fight.

As for the recent purchase issue, I agree with TVPierce, why should the valuation be based on something other than value? At the end of the day, I am not looking to make a profit over my 11k purchase price, but I did also spend $850 in registration taxes and $700 to have the car trucked to me. I can't view those costs as amortized in any way as they came out of my pocket a month ago. If they total the car, I won't feel unethical arguing for a payout which includes those additional costs.

You haven't even been made an offer yet and you're already anticipating a fight. State Farm is probably one of the better companies, so sit back, relax, let the adjuster do his thing and see what they say. Why get worked up over an issue that may never develop? You may just be pleasantly surprised with the way the whole thing gets handled...if not then you at least know what direction you can go.

It seems to me that if you paid $11,000 for it and only drove it 250 miles since then you have a pretty convincing case right there for establishing its minimum value...nobody will want to argue with a straight face that the car depreciated substantially in 250 miles.

Well, State Farm authorized the shop to spend $7500 on a "first ticket" with $2500 available supplements with backed up estimates. They're being a little coy about what the driver's policy limits are. I'm now just worried that the bill will get to ten k and then more will be needed but they won't pay. Then I'll have to go to my comprehensive policy and its deductible. Anyway, NHDoc is right, I am good at imagining the potential problems.

i wouldnt sign off on a set price unless i absolutely new for sure it was going to be more than needed ..

what is your insurance company saying ? ask advice and state your issues .. u should be able to get this taken care of without shelling out any dough

I really don't think you have to worry...they admitted fault and have authorized repairs...it was their call to total it out before the repairs began and apparently they felt it could be fixed for less that it was worth before the accident. It's questionable to me whether that is prudent or not since you paid $11K for it and they are basically now committed to $10K to fix it but who knows...time will tell if it even gets to $10K.

If the shop keeps finding stuff to charge them for I don't think they can just decided to "stop paying" and stick you with it at this point. Again, wait and see what happens...hopefully you have a collision shop you feel comfortable with and who does good work. Just make sure it gets fixed correctly and you are satisfied with the job. Typically the insurance company will need to approve any additional charges, just make sure they do that should any come up and you should be good to go.

Since they admitted fault they have no basis to stick you with any liability now...in fact I hope you are getting reimbursed for a rental car while yours is out of commission. You'd typically be entitled to that too.

You're really talking nickels and dimes to them...they are so relieved when an accident doesn't end up with an injury that property damage claims are usually handled fairly well routinely. They would take a different stance if you were seriously injured because that could cause them serious money. An extra $1000 to fix your car is not a problem for state farm...

I wouldn't want a car that costs as much to fix than its worth. Tell them that if it costs more than 11k to fix it that you want them to pay for it or you want them to total the car for 11k. Then warn them that if the car is not fixed after they put 11k into it that you will have to sue them to finish the repairs. They won't want to take the risk and will probably total the car and you'll get your money back. You can then take the 11k and buy another one, if that's what you want to do.

I'd have to echo this sentiment, but I honestly don't think they have to give you the choice at this point. It doesn't hurt to ask however. The fact is I have never been completely satisfied with any major body repairs, there are always issues that are not resolved. You may be better off getting the cash out of it now and walking away rather than dealing with a car that has had major crash repair work done to it. Remember, when you go to sell it everyone is going to ask if it has ever been in an accident...when you dislcose this it will be very hard to find a buyer for it.

I did raise these issues with State Farm. My shop, however, told them the value of the car is $16.5k and they accepted that. They told me they'd give me the 7500 and let me decide whether to do the repairs or not, but not the 16.5. They said that purchase price is not relevant.

I guess I'll just have to drive the car forever. On the other hand, I think that this is a car somebody will always want, even if not for top dollar.

"Diminished value"
 

Marty (NHDoc) is right about the insurance company being right about the car's damage not being a big an issue as it would be, were there an injury.

The car needs to be fixed, and done right the first time.

If the amount goes over the supplemental, start screaming about "diminished value". (It is a fairly sophisticated concept, not widely understood, or publicized, but it is a supplement you get for having a car with "diminished" value due to being a repaired car, and no longer a mint original.)

Kind of like "halfway" to a salvage title and the loss of value that causes, I believe.

It is somewhat beyond my ken, but worth a deep google search, I think, especially if they start playing games with you.