Help with purchasing decision please.

[HeavyDuty]

Here is the deal. I have found a beautiful 1990 560sec. The car appears to be well taken care of, beautiful inside and out, even the engine compartment is very clean. It has 151,900 miles and I am told runs out great. I have not driven the car personally yet or had it inspected. I would of course if I decided to purchase. The problem is it is on a dealer lot (not MB dealer) and they are asking $7900. I do admit I can be on the cheap side and this car appears to be in "excellent" condition but Kelley Blue Book says the car is only worth around $6000, retail and in excellent condition. The dealer is reluctant to budge on the price because he says the car is rare. I am driving a 1990 420sel that I absolutely adore but my car was seriously neglected by its previous owner so the thought of having a coupe that was well taken care of is very tempting.

The question is are the 560sec rare? I see alot of sedan 420's and 300's but not the 560 coupes but are they "rare"? Should I even be considering this car since it is $1900 over blue book? The carfax report overall was very positive with the exception of two "minor" accidents to the left rear the most recent of which was 02/06. I have been to see the car after hours and can see no evidence of these accidents. I would really like to have this car but do not want to be hustled. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[whunter]

to Tech Help forum for feedback from other owners.

[philipandrews37]

My advice is to only buy over the normal price if it is absolutely free of any major faults. For example I bought a 320 coupe over the odds and then found the rear screen demister didn't work the a/c didn't work there was a slight head gasket leak and later after driving it the alternator blew and cooked the battery.I could easily spend £3k putting it all right but with rising fuel costs and other taxes it probably isn't worth it. Rarity can have its own price tag.

[HeavyDuty]

Originally Posted by philipandrews37

My advice is to only buy over the normal price if it is absolutely free of any major faults. For example I bought a 320 coupe over the odds and then found the rear screen demister didn't work the a/c didn't work there was a slight head gasket leak and later after driving it the alternator blew and cooked the battery.I could easily spend £3k putting it all right but with rising fuel costs and other taxes it probably isn't worth it. Rarity can have its own price tag.

I could very easily fall in love with this car and it does appear to be in great shape but I could see something like this happening to an 18 year old car. I wouldn't be able to see a head gasket leak. Thanks for the input! Thanks also to whunter for the move, I wasn't completely sure which forum would be best to post this question.

[rocky raccoon]

I understand your agony. Some time ago, I paid over list by $1000 for a 123 300D. The car's appearance was virtually perfect and ir drove like new. I never regretted that purchase and wish I still had the car.

The difference between my situation and yours is .... records. I bought mine from the Benz dealer that sold it and maintained it for it's 16 year life. They gave me the maintenance records from brand new on that car.

If the dealer that is trying to sell that car cannot offer the same or similar, I would be cautious. A good detailing can hide many imperfections. Try to get records or else don't pay a dime more than list.

That's my advice but no one else listens to me.

Not all that rare but they are beautiful.

[HeavyDuty]

Originally Posted by rocky raccoon

...Not all that rare but they are beautiful.

This is the crux of it, the dealer says the car is rare and I agree you do not see very many especially in great shape (at least not in my area) but I don't believe this model is a collector. That said, my expertise is nil and I do not know what kind of production Mercedes had on these cars. I may be wrong and they may very well have been a limited run. If they weren't then Blue Book is taking into account the nice condition and he is $1900 too high.

[Chadahar]

Here are the production numbers from www.MBCoupes.com I also recommend that you go there and read the Buyers Guide and stick to the list when dealing with the dealer. Take the car to a good local MB Indy to do a PPI and then if it passes in fylying colors and only then think about the price overage. Rare...not so much so as the 1991 420SEC 500 SEC (see Below, but less 6000 total(see Below).

Year.......420SEC....500 SEC........560SEC
1989.........534........1062.............5299
1990.........451........1067.............5270
1991.........219..........499.............2138


As you can see by my signature I own 2 SEC's and neither were hard to find here in So CA but N.C. may be another story. Find out from Carfax where the car lived, if a northern state with the RUST MONSTER, check it out thoroughly.

[lkchris]

Originally Posted by HeavyDuty

The question is are the 560sec rare?

Rare only applies to you--do you know where there are any others as good as this one? As close?

You'll eat up any savings traveling somewhere to look at others.

[Jim B.]

Even though I co wrote this http://www.mbcoupes.com/buyersguide/buyersguide.htm back in 1998 it is still relevant and well regarded.

[Larry Delor]

I would agree with the statement that they are not rare; although you don't find them on every streetcorner either.
As with the other M117 engines, timing chain guide failure is a distinct possibility with this car as well. One moment you're happy-go-lucky, the next, you're looking at $4k in repairs.
What I am trying to say is: Better make sure the rails have been recently replaced. If not, beat the guy up on his price, and get them replaced after you've bought it - because guide failure is no where near as rare as an SEC.

PS: I thought I heard somewhere that used car dealers will tell you whatever they need to, to get top dollar for their car But that could just be a vicious rumor

[Benz Mercedes]

It's rare that someone would pay more than $5500 at this time for an excellent 1990 560 SEC , But more rare that this car won't need $$$$ worth of repairs and up keep soon ,go back in about 3 months ,the price will be a lot lower if it's still there ,and if it's gone ,then you saved yourself a lot of $$$$,, find out if the A/C blows cold , if the car has front end shimmy ,if there is rust in the usual spots , if the chain guides have been changed,if the compression is good and make sure the rear suspension is good, also if you buy this car you will have 2 money pits. I also have a 420 SEL, I've had it for 10 years, if you can do the labor for repairs yourself ,these are great cars to own.

Ben

[A. Rosich]

It' simple mathematics: with over 150,000 miles and no certified maintenance records, the car could look perfect that I would not pay over one cent of retail value.

Now, if it were a car with very low miles (lets say under 100,000), perfect records and even sold by an M.B. dealer, then I would pay the premium.

[junkyard_kahrs]

About 6 years ago I found a 1991 560SEC, black on beige. It had about 94,000 miles on it with LOTS of records. It's pretty illuminating to go through them- the damn antenna motor probably went out 5 times alone. The car had been repainted, but it was done very very well through an SF Bay Area dealership- doorjambs, inside the engine compartment, under wiring harnesses even (from teal to black, and the lower cladding went black too, so it looked pretty badass- that was never a stock look, but it felt stock.) Anyway, with those records, low mileage and how clean it was, I paid a premium for it but felt I'd found a good car.

Then the journey began. First, hydraulic compensators fixed the unusually stiff highway ride. It needed new tires all around. Then I lost reverse. (Now, maybe those in the forum know if this is actually a cheap fix or not, but I ended up getting talked into a rebuilt unit.) Then window switches, seemingly all at once, then the headliner fell in. The A/C was half there, then not there at all. Then the heat went nuts (solenoid valves or something up under the dash) Steering box needed a reseal. I bit the bullet and the shop went after the A/C, new evaporator, Freeze 12 conversion, replacing leaking lines and fittings. It was costing a fortune. The ASR would cut the throttle if you tried to punch it- exactly when you needed full throttle (you get good at recycling the ignition while at highway speeds). This was when I still lived in northern california. Funny the seatbelt presenters always worked fine. But after all that, the A/C still didn't work. Needless to say I can't recommend that shop in Oakland.

I moved to LA- to Pasadena after all that (hot), and had to do something about the A/C. I got a recommendation for a shop that just did climate control, and wow- what a difference. The expertise in LA, particularly the Valley, is impressive. They went through all the expansion valves, took it back to R12 (didn't realize you could do that and that it was better for the car anyway). Anyway, I tallied up the expenses over 5 years and it was over $12,000. But there were other issues as well. Things that spending money wouldn't have fixed anyway. It wasn't a tight car- must have been hit. It wasn't easy to spot in the records but the hints were there if you looked. Most annoying was that folks seemed to have gone through the interior a bunch of times, and it never quite fit together again. It rattled and squeaked more than I thought it should have. Which was tough to spot with a car who's interior looks flawless- and when you're in the glow of the impulsive feeling that you've finally found the right car.

So what is the moral of the story? Personally I think even copious records are only of marginal help. I think that things that are soft on a car, on any car (seals, adhesives, gaskets, rubber bellows) just start to go around the 100k+ mark, and I wonder if the 225,000 mile cars are sometimes a better bet- someone is *running* this thing, keeping it going, keeping after it instead of deferring the early time bombs. But if there is any way you can determine if a car has been, uh- messed with, like lame stereo installations, or cell phone antennas going up through the headliners, if it's been hit- that's what I would stay well away from.

On the other hand, there were wonderful things about the car. Yes- the pedal throw is odd for being so firm and long, but when you push it down firmly, how delightful to feel the tonnage move out effortlessly. It had a fantastic ride.With all four windows down it was unlike any other car on the road. The interior is one of the best I've ever seen, still loks fresh after all these years- the seats alone are gorgeous and great for long runs, even the rear seats- they are not the same seats as the stock seats in the sedans (although I understand they were an option). It was a great touring car, a solid long distance runner. A car for glamorous nights out.

In the end, I decided I needed four doors for the practicality, and the 12mpg wasn't fun this past year at $5 per gallon. So it's gone, but not for long. I want my s-class mojo back again. I'm looking for a late ('90,'91) 300SEL.

[TylerH860]

I worked as a car salesman for quite a while, great job for a college kid, but the economic downturn and new opportunities led me elsewhere.

Yes, it is true that salesmen will do as much as they can to get you in the door, with the exception of specific discounts. Most successful salesmen rarely haggle over the phone, simply because its too easy to say no or to shop other dealers. If you go down there with cash in hand and make a solid offer, I'm almost certain this guy will budge some. Go there armed with as much knowledge as you can, offer a bit below what you're comfortable paying, and go from there.

The W126 buyers lists what to look for in detail, and if you're unfamiliar with the car, spending $150.00 for a dealer PPI could save you thousands. The PPI for my E320 wagon purchase revealed a leaking head gasket and a few other minors issues I didn't notice during my amateur inspection. Since I liked the car anyway, I made a low ball offer, which the dejected seller accepted. With the issues fixed I now have a fantastic car well within my initial budget.

[Mercedes Guy]

I agree that when you talk to the salesman about this vehicle it's best to have as much technical knowledge as possible. I've found that most of the salesmen at MB dealerships don't know much about the older models, especially the technical details.

That reminds me of an S320 that I took for a test drive with a salesman. The following conversation took place:

Me: "Do you happen to know if the wiring harness has been replaced? I know that was an issue on the W140 models."

Salesman: "But this is an S320."

Me: "An S320 is a W140."

Salesman: (Confused look.)