88 300E M-103 auto. turns over, won't start...
 

Won't even fire intermittently, just turns over. Car ran great when parked a little less than 2 years ago. In the past, sometimes when it dropped below about 55 degrees, there would be a funny noise coming from below the pass side front floorboard but the car still ran fine. That noise is there now. Sounds like a noisy fuel pump but there isn't one there. Never have heard that noise in my 89 M-103 300E. Dropped 4 fresh gallons into it. The number "4" LED is lit up on the self diagnostic panel (this is a California car) but I didn't activate that (I don't know how to do that yet on these cars). I have the Stu Ritter Bible for the W-124 but I can't find it. I think I loaned it to someone. Given enough time (a month), I could troubleshoot this on my own using the info on GSXR's (Dave's) site but I'm under considerable pressure to move this car before Monday mourning (24 hours). This is the car we brought our first child home from the hospital in (not pertinent I know). Thanks to all who help. Regards, Eric

If it has sat for 2 years without being driven its going to take more than a day to get it going. The gas has all turned to varnish by now, possibly wrecking: Fuel pump, fuel distributor....injectors.....lines.....pressure regulator.....the list goes on. Its going to need some major work. Including probably having the fuel tank pulled and cleaned.

If you move it Monday, its going to be on a tow truck. ;)

I appreciate your input but I respectfully disagree about the varnish issue. I've had many cars through the years including my 93 400E that have sat for extended periods without ruining the fuel system. The 400E sat from 8/05 till 6/07 with no ill effect. This 88 300E sat from 6/07 till now (remember, I said less than 2 years) My 89 300E, which was also parked in 6/07, fired right up and ran great when asked to do so at the end of last October. That's just 3 months and 1 week less time sitting than the 88 300E. No, this is something else.
Does anybody have an idea what that number "4" LED means? Again, thanks to all who help. Regards, Eric

Check the fuse on top of the OVP. OVP located in the area of the battery.
Fuse blown will give you the crank but no start symptom.

check your fuses etc, neutral safety switch, make sure starter is working and getting proper juice. I would clean out the fuel system and put some fresh gas in it.

Thanks for the tip. Is this OVP behind or in front or beside the battery? What is the OVP? I know I'm probably looking right at it. Regards, Eric

The starter is cranking great and there are 4 fresh gallons of gas in the tank. I noticed you have a 2.6 with a stalling problem. When I was doing my search for info on my problem before I started this thread, I saw a few threads that addressed stalling issues on M-103s. Did you check them out? Regards, Eric

OVP= over voltage protective relay.
Mounted to the right and slightly back from the battery.
Should be located with the Fuel Pump Relay and can have one or two fuses mounted on top of it.
Fuses sometimes blow when you try to jump start the car or even charging the battery.

Or when changing the battery? I'm on this.
I know where the Fuel Pump Relay is because I have found that I can manipulate the WOT shift points of the trans. by trying different relays. I learned from the Stu Ritter Bible that that relay also controls the trans. kickdown and WOT upshifts as well as the eng. RPM limiter. (I can use the 88 and later only. Can't use the 86-87 because of the difference in number of fuel pumps). Maybe I should start a thread on the topic? Have you ever tried this on your turbo M-103? That car is cool by the way! Anyway, I'll let all know if this OVP thing is it. Thanks. Regards, Eric

Is it possible for the OVP to be bad even if the fuse inside it is still good? As soon as it stops raining, I'm going to try the one from the 89 since we KNOW that one is good. Regards, Eric

Didn't work. Any other ideas? I'm in big trouble (Seriously) if this car doesn't move before tomorrow. Regards, Eric

Getting good spark and a bit of fresh fuel odor out the tail pipe. So I'm getting good fuel and good spark. This car should be running! What does that lit up LED by number 4 mean? Another thing that is odd is the fuel gauge still reads empty while the key is in the run position even though I put 4 gallons in---that should be 2 gallons above the reserve so it should show a little on the gauge.

fixed the stalling problem havent updated the sig yet

With fuel and spark, well, it should light up. Try some ether (starting fluid) sprayed sparingly (!) down the throttle body. Make sure there's not a mouse nest in the air cleaner or something else weird going on. Make sure the plugs are not fouled. Thump the fuel gauge with your finger, it may jump up, mine tend to "stick" at empty sometimes.

The #4 LED is supposed to blink codes when you press the little button. With the key on, press the button for 3 seconds, and count the blinks. When it stops, press another 3 seconds, count again. If it blinks the same number every time, only one code is stored. If it blinks different numbers, it will repeat (start back at the first numerical code) after you've gone through all of 'em. Blink code "1" means no codes are stored. There are only 8 possible codes on this old CIS system, btw.

:nuke:

1st reply was correct...the fuel system is crapped out...varnished is the word...sitting fuel turns into a laquer like substance. it's probably in the injectors, they are stuck closed. every heard of pickeling?

I don't think you can fix 2 years of idleness in 24 hours...if you can...great

Thanks G-man. You are the best. You remember my mention of Code Enforcement issues? Well here I am. Could you please point me in the right direction to quickly find the page that tells what the codes mean? Thanks again. Regards, Eric

If it runs on ether, but not with gas from the injectors, then yeah... sounds like a fuel problem. But first get it fire on starting fluid.

:balloon2:

Cliffmac,

Click here to download the PDF file with the codes. See page 23.

:scholar:

Thanks again G-man, you really are the best.
If anybody thinks of anything else, please do post it. Thanks. I'll update when I know more. Regards, Eric

did you check fuel pressure?

Not yet. I'm trying to do the easy stuff first because of my time constraints. I work and then when it rains I come inside and check here for more ideas. I'm kinda lost here because my 2 M-103 cars are the most reliable cars I have ever owned so I've never had to learn how to fix them. I'm almost an expert on M-119s now...
With a name like "Oracle" you should know what's wrong with my car lol. Regards, Eric

Comparing one car that sat a long time and ran to another doesn't prove anything. Gas turns to crud after sitting a long time (even after 3-5 months) so 2 years likely did something bad to the fuel system....and I doubt its going to run right (if it runs at all) without a good cleaning and many parts being replaced.

Our California gas is so bad that even the ravages of time can't destroy it.:P Regards, Eric

Hmm....that is a possibility. :D

hope this helps

did you check the crankshaft postion sensor?

About the LED on all the time - check out page 6 of this PDF file.

Have you tried starting fluid yet? Three bucks a can at the local McParts, c'mon, that would be the FIRST thing I would do.

:boat:

I had to take care of some other business today that couldn't wait and it won't stop freaking raining long enough for me to do anything outside. At least yesterday there were breaks in the rain. The starter fluid is first on the agenda when I go back out there. Right now I'm studying the stuff you fine gentlemen have sent me. Thanks! I'll update when I have news. As always, I would be very happy to hear about any other ideas any of you may have! Regards, Eric

G-man, I'm confused. If I understand that page correctly, That LED should only be on if I activated it myself, which I didn't do---it came on on it's own. :confused:

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Weird. Don't worry about it though, turn the key on, hold the button for 3 seconds, and start counting blinks... probably won't mean much if the engine isn't running though.

:boat:

It's not that I'm worried, it's just that I'm thinking this is a possible clue to why this car won't run. I want to explore it since it's the only clue I've had so far...

If its not even coughing when trying to start, then the diagnostic light is going to be useless.....especially on an '88....pretty much all it tells is O2 sensor.....which won't stop the car from starting.

It's the fact that the LED is on when it shouldn't be on...makes me think there might be an issue with the electronics. Remember, this car sat all this time with a dead dead very dead battery (it was already dead when I parked the car in 6/07). Also, rodents may have chewed a wire or 2. No, it doesn't even try to cough when turning over.
I've confirmed there is no blockage in the air cleaner or tube but the little $hits did chew up the element a bit so it can suck dirty unfiltered air now--how nice.
This rain is sadistic... every time it seems to stop, I grab the coat and gloves and head out only to have it start up again... Remember how Lucy used to taunt Charlie Brown with the football?
I'm thinking if the ether doesn't work, to try the Jetronic ECU from my 89 (wife's really) since we know that one is good.
I get mixed up sometimes which car got what, but I think this car got a new O2 sensor less than 10,000 miles ago. I'd have to look at my files to see but you are right, it shouldn't keep it from starting.

These engines are mostly mechanical, including mechanical fuel injection... if you are getting spark, they should start. Don't forget to pull the plugs and make sure they're not wet & fouled with raw gas.

Wrong! We actually moved it with a chain! Normally I don't give up this easy but I just ran out of time (the downpours didn't help) and I simply had to move the car. Actually, I haven't given up, I just have other things that must be tended to right now plus I'm leaving town again on Friday (yes, the 13th) for 2 weeks (business). Also, I want to take my 400E back to the strip when I get back so after that, maybe in about a month, I'll get back to work on this one and I'll be reporting back here with some answers.

G-man, You are right. I seem to remember reading somewhere that these CIS cars will run even if the ECU completely fails. You just lose the electronic control of the air/fuel ratio. So this car should be running! And it will be!


As the G-man can attest to, I generally don't leave threads hanging. As our Governator would say, "I'll be back". If anybody else thinks of something that hasn't already been thought of, please do post it! Thanks again to all of you! Regards, Eric

Is your air meter plate stuck?

-tp

Is that the plate over the throttle body? It's not stuck---it is funny you would mention that. It actually seems to me that there is not enough resistance---the plate seems to move too freely. How much resistance should there be? Maybe something has failed (a diaphragm? Maybe it got chewed?) If it's not getting sucked open when it should be, that would be the same as it being stuck closed. I need to check the one on the '89. I also need to watch how that plate is supposed to behave when starting/running. Thanks. Regards, Eric

The pressure when moving the air meter should come from it pushing on the plunger in the fuel distributor....if it moves too freely that means the plunger is jammed/stuck. Likely due to varnished gas....like I said before. Fuel distributors don't like sitting, its probably shot.

You and your bad gas--- maybe you should take something for it?http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...ons/icon12.gif
I've already admitted that I don't know too much about these M-103s. I just can't believe that 2 identical cars filled at the same station with the same gas that sat almost the same amount of time at the same location would react so differently. The '89 has been running like a top ever since it was reanimated/recommissioned at the end of October. One sat for 16 months and one sat for 19 months and 1 week.
I do appreciate your help---please don't get me wrong.
We'll just have to see what it is when I get back. Regards, Eric

If I am correct I think the 400E has an entirely different injection system.....the 300E has the older style CIS....which is much more sensative to sitting and fuel issues. In general you have to run fuel system cleaners fairly often to keep the fuel distributor and injectors happy.....they're just needy.

ETHER!!!!

:drummer:

"I've had many cars through the years including my 93 400E that have sat for extended periods without ruining the fuel system. The 400E sat from 8/05 till 6/07 with no ill effect. The 88 300E sat from 6/07 till now (remember, I said less than 2 years) My 89 300E, which was also parked in 6/07, fired right up and ran great when asked to do so at the end of last October. That's just 3 months and 1 week less time sitting than the 88 300E."
I think you are confusing the 89 300E with the 93 400E. the 88 and 89 are identical. Yes, the 400E has a completely different and for the most part much more efficient fuel injection system but in my experience the CIS cars are more reliable. That's one of the reasons why I love them so much. My 137,000 mile 400E (Benzer III) has given me more trouble than both my 194,000 mile 88 300E (Benzer II) and our much beloved 230,000 mile 89 300E (Benzer I) have combined. That's one of the reasons why I'm so much more knowlegable about the M-119 despite having owned it the least amount of time. The 90 and later CIS cars became a little more complex and I have no experience with them so my coments don't apply to them. Regards, Eric

Don't you know that stuff can cause brain damage?

Like I said, I just ran out of time. I have other things that have to be tended to and I'm leaving for 2 weeks tomorrow. And as I also said, ether is first on the agenda when I get back to work on Benzer II. There were things that needed to get done before I left that didn't get done because this half day job turned into a 3 and a half day job. Remember, this car isn't even here now. Don't worry, we'll figure it out! Thanks again to everyone! Regards, Eric

I'm back! Have a million things to do though. Will try to get to the 88 in a few days. Regards, Eric

Prepping the M-119 car for it's day at the strip (03/07/09). After that, have to move the turbo 740 wagon, after that, it's back to work on this one. Regards, Eric

300E won't start
 

Keep looking, when you find the problem let us know.

Sorry guys. I hate it when a thread starter doesn't wrap up a thread properly so I always try to do the right thing and not leave a thread hanging. I just simply haven't gotten back to work on this car yet but I will get to it and when I do, I will report back here what it took to get it running again. I fear that by the time I get to it, the gas will be bad after all so now I'll be trying to chase down more than one problem. Regards, Eric

The air meter plate not having much resistance when you push on it could be a stuck plunger, but it could also be a bad fuel pump or just lack of fuel pressure. When the system is up to proper fuel pressure, the air meter plate will be noticeably stiffer than when it isn't.

The proper thing to do would be to test your fuel pressure. I think it's supposed to be in the neighborhood of 85 psi. Might wanna verify that.

Do you have a mechanics stethoscope? If so, with the ignition in the ON position, place the steth on one of the injectors. Push the air meter plate down. You should hear the injector squirt, and if it is working well, it should chatter slightly. If that all checks out, then indeed you are getting fuel to your engine and pressure would seem to be adequate.

At that point, I would start checking for vacuum leaks, and possibly the coolant temp sensors. If they are way off, it can make starting near impossible.

Pull out your plugs and clean/gap them. All of these failed starting attempts could have fouled them.

Good luck!

"All of these failed starting attempts could have fouled them."
I'm thinking that last sentence may hit it on the head. Got the car running today! All I did was a couple squirts of ether a couple times and it was off to the races! Well, not exactly the races but it did run good enough to drive. I wasn't even really trying to make it run....the ether was just the next step in my diagnostic plan. The gas in there NOW IS old so it probably won't be running at it's best until all that old gas is out of there. So it's running...that's the good news. The bad news is that we still don't know why the car wouldn't start in the first place and we also don't know if this problem is gonna re-visit me again. Thanks though to all who posted! I will update again if and when there are any developments.
Regards, Eric