W124 E420 Bogging
 

I've done several searches and found some possibly related info, but nothing on this engine that quite fits.

Our E420 (1994) bogs under hard acceleration (and more and more under moderate acceleration).

The check engine light is not coming on, we've replaced the wiring harness, MAF, plugs, wires, caps (etc) in the past 12-24 months. Check engine light came on for all the other issues, not for this at all. No recurring codes either.

It's been to two mechanics, the second of which has looked at it for a week and had the head mechanic from another Mercedes specialist look at it (that makes three shops). All are experienced with this model. One is a MB only shop, one does 75% MB's and one is a 'Euro' shop. Lots of MB's, Volvo's and BMW's.

He said there were some old codes from the MAF, but nothing recent and does not think that's it. They've checked the fuel pressure, vacuum hoses and fuel delivery hoses, everything in the air/fuel management system, changed in and out a few modules, etc. Nothing...

He's telling me he's stumped and perhaps have the dealer look at it. However, neither he nor I really think they'll know (How often do they service these vs. newer models?).

The one thing I saw searching were some 6 cyl W124's with dirty fuel distributors.

Any ideas at all?

Have you ruled out injectors?

Clogged or bad?

I don't think either (though he may not have mentioned it). I'll ask.

Thanks.

has anyone inspected the ETA harness? Just had a 94 500SL in that wasn't running right, no codes, but the ETA harness was Toast.

fresh Beckmann ETA, reset adaptations and all is well!

Jonathan


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Now playing: Band Of Horses - The Funeral
via FoxyTunes

So, the mechanic called back again this afternoon and says it runs fine now, though he has no idea why. He did fix some leaks around the fuels pumps, though he said fuel pressure was fine.

One guy there thinks it's bad fuel from the station across the street and that several people have had problems because of that. However, I don't buy it. It's been going on a while and we've gotten gas at several places.

No guarantee this thing won't come back all of a sudden (I think it will). Maybe it is the eta and they just bumped it. Who knows...

I'll report back if it returns and we actually learn something. I promised the mechanic the same...

@jhodg5ck

Thanks. I think they did. They asked me about the main harness while I was there and seemed to be inspecting all.

I think they were quite thorough. They've put about 10 hours into this thing (they billed me for three, replacing brittle vacuum tubes that cracked, the fuel leaks, etc.).

For what it's worth, I was playing parts swap trying to pin down an ABS issue on the 87 (solved!). To get to the ABS module, the ECU had to be removed/installed. When all was done and car restarted, it idled low, would bog upon giving it throttle, but clear up and run at high RPM. I had installed the electrical connector on the ECU but not all the way (some pins connected, some not). Another 1/4" and latched down and all was well.

That's good.. Sometimes MAF's on these cars Won't throw codes even though they are acting up.. Pays to have good used to swap.

I'd ask if they did an injector test (in SDS)...I'm guessing they checked the fuel pressure reg..

Sometimes it pays just to unplug and reconnect everything, ie wires/modules/relays etc.. A bit of corrosion can cause Strange things to happen!

Jonathan


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Now playing: Dave Matthews Band - Let You Down
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please define the term...
 

"bog"

Were those the 6L6GC's or KT66's? Every 400E has (6) KT66's in the output stage. You need those for maximum distortion :D

Sorry, couldn't resist!! I saw 'vacuum tubes' in your post and my pea brain just switched gears on me... crawling back under my rock now...

@Simon -

Bog - Action: Push accelerator Result: RPM's and vehicle speed reduce.

We'd have to then accelerate very gently to build speed again.

@73E - They pulled them from a Quad II.

Right on! :thumbsup:

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, car got worse soon after this post. We had it looked at again and it was narrowed down to "likely" be the ETA. So, I sent the ETA to 4Mercedes, who had rebuilt it over 3 years ago. They checked it, said the motor was bad, rebuilt it, including new cable/harness and sent it back. Installed today and it runs worse than ever.

Can't do much over 30. If I put my foot into it, it goes into limp home. Barely made it home. 25 MPH on freeway, stalled crossing busy intersection.

So....

Does it need to be reset after installing the ETA? Could the throttle module be bad?

Signed,

Very, very frustrated in Austin

I had something similar and brought it to 2 Mb tech till we found out it was the coils.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/271154-400-sel-breaking-up-around-1500-rpm.html

Prolly easy enough to pull and see if there is white arcing on it before you spend any money

Is this an ASR car? ASR cars get all kinds of funky troubles that are impossible to figure out.
Regards, Eric

Yes, it is.

Can you tell me, where are the coils?

Behind the driver side headlight bucket down low. Just follow the coil wires from the distributors back to the coils.

I think it's gonna turn out to be something caused by the ASR system or something that the ASR interacts with.
Regards, Eric

I hadn't noticed this before, but the asr light came on very briefly when I was accelerating yesterday.

The problem is it could be any of 15 things that all cost alot. I've had the three best shops in town look at it and they can't figure it out, hence my other post - "sell, part out or burn?" (or something like that).

Jkazzoun,

I had similar symptoms with '95 E420 - bogging down during acceleration - symptoms got worse over time. While I don't assume your problem is same as mine was...the solution was easy & inexpensive, so you might want to check.

Fuel Filter. Even though pressure was within spec during idle - measured at fuel rail. Upon acceleration, insufficient "flow" getting to the rail & thus injectors. I even picked up a few codes (I seem to remember...maybe wrong about this though) that led me astray in my diagnosing process.

Anyway, same sypmtoms you're describing. I replaced the fuel filter...and it was like a new car. Interestingly, the filter wasn't old - a baffle/plate inside had dislodged partially blocking the outlet path.

You may have a fuel line restriction. Not necessarily at the filter.

Can you check fuel pressure at the rail - both at idle and then upon acceleration?

They checked fuel line pressure (they even checked the fuel, went into the tank and check for sediment, etc.).

I'm not sure where they checked. Where is 'the rail'? At the injector rail?

Where is the fuel filter on this? Is it easy, hard? I'm not a big DIY guy on this car (though I did change out the ETA myself, main wire harness too...). Not as easy to find things for me as the '85 FJ60 Landcruiser I have...:eek:

Just confirmed, they checked at rail, it was fine.

Joe,

FJ60, huh? A friend of mine has one - it's eating him alive! I have a 2000 Landcruiser - just put a center differential/transfer case, and a half axle in, over the past 2 weeks. Did it all myself. I've been thinking about getting an older Cruiser - cuz I spend time on Ih8mud site. I imagine you go to that forum?

Anyway, about the rails: Yes, you got it. At the fuel rails - the 1/4 SAE connection. But let me tell you my experience: I was checking the fuel pressure at that point, during idle. Pressure was within spec. But the minute I tried to accelerate - the car would bog down. After weeks of trying different diagnoses (what's the plural of diagnosis?)...all to no avail...I decided to change the fuel filter. I'm serious - it was like a different car. It was the problem = a "partial" blockage in the fuel line system. Enough gas was getting to the fuel rail (and thus the injectors) under idle...but when the engine was using more gas...it (gas) wasn't being replenished fast enough.

So, while I'm not saying your problem is the necessarily the filter...it still might be a partial blockage in the fuel line. You're getting enough gas during idle so that the pressure reads fine at the rail - but not enough when accelerating.

The filter on your car is underneath - right in front of the passenger side rear wheel. There's a black plastic cover - protects/covers the fuel pump and the filter. There's about 6 plastic nuts holding the cover on. Between the pump and the filter there is a short run of fuel line - makes a 90 degree bend. You might want to look and make sure it's not kinked or anything.

Like I said, this might not be your problem. But it was definitely my problem and was a cheap fix compared to some of the electronic stuff you've been looking into.

Thanks for that. I'll go a head and replace it, just because. It's cheap and worth a try.

RE: FJ60 - Eating him alive? Is he modifying it? You could buy a new tranny for the thing for the price of a couple of modules for a M119-124. I also have two MB's and a BMW and the 25 YO Landcruiser is the one I know will be reiliable. Plus it's got no power windows, no climate control, no cruise control and a carb. God forbid I should own my 530xiT in 5 years when the warranty is up. Talk about eating someone alive. Wonder what an iDrive costs to replace?

I am betting on Bad Fuel!


El Sea,

Suckin Sludge & Havin a Gas

Mmmm, no. The car has been through multiple tanks with this problem. And, the fuel was tested, fuel sending unit was tested, they went into the tank too and checked it out visually for sludge, etc.

Bad fuel was one of their mechanics first guess, so not a bad one.

Joe,

My friend and the FJ60: No, he's not modifying it - just trying to get it to run for more than 10 miles without breaking down. He lives in an apartment complex and they won't let him work on it in the parking lot - so he's forced to use a shop. And it's been in the shop for more than 8 months now.

Good luck with your E420. Mine frustrated the crap out of me whenever it wouldn't run. But whenever I finally managed to fix it (and I've been through 3 or 4 issues)...I always remember why I like it the minute I drive it. Best driving car I've ever owned. (Better than my Mustang, and it's more than 10 years older than the Mustang).

Oh, and if you can replace your own ETA and wiring harness (you mentioned you did)...then you can change your fuel filter with your eyes closed. Not a real technical job - just a pain in the butt getting under the car.

I'm going to overnight the E-GAS module to 4Mercedes. They say they can test it there. If it's bad, I'll buy a used one.

If it's not bad, I'll change the fuel filter, burn some incense, pray, drink a bottle of tequila in a sitting, eat a cheeseburger, do ten pushups and other things I am sure will bring positive change to my life.

A buddhist approach to car mechanics. I like it.

Buddhists eat cheeseburgers?

Only if the cheeseburger has been soaked in tequila first.

(Something to do with the cow's karma, I think.)

Well, I had the codes pulled again today.

006 - EE/CC/ISC Control Module N4/1

224 - Idle Speed Contact Switch

ETA time...cut open the wire feeding said ETA, see what kind of shape they are in.

Jonathan

See post 13 - ETA just rebuilt (including new wire harness).

Leaning towards the e-gas module. I'll call 4mercedes in the am and see what they say about the codes. I'm thinking either the e-gas is bad or they didn't do a good rebuild on the ETA (or both).

So, 4 mercedes says the eta and the egas module are both fine. bench tested and tested in a car. No problems.

So, they are saying most likely it is the starter harness or less likely the asr module.

Thoughts?

inspecting starter harness should take about 5 min..yes, Very common.

Jonathan

bogged down car
 

I had a 400E I spent thousands on for the same problem. It was the throttle and when it was replaced (part was $1200) it was fine after M/B fixed ait leaks they caused.

Well, after finally getting back my ETA and EGAS module from 4mercedes 9it took 6 weeks for the round trip- ugh!), I went to buy the starter harness from Peach Parts. After looking-up the error codes (above in the thread), I was advised to buy a throtle switch instead (140 545 01 14 ). I figured it was worth a try for $50 (aprox.).

It didn't help, unfortunately. However, if you have to replace yours, check out this incredibly helpful thread - http://http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=142458.

I'll next make another round of calls to gather more ideas. Maybe starter harness next. Have not visually inspected, cannot find. Any tips? A phot would be great. Oh, and maybe I should do a search...

One more thing, can someone confirm that a)the starter harness is the same as the 'lower harness' and b) it does connect to or interacts with the ETA and/or ASR system somewhere?

Thanks,

jk

Yes, starter and lower harness are the same thing, but I don't see how it could have any impact on the ETA or ASR system.

I agree. By the way, I think the prior owner of my E420 was initially sent a bad ETA from 4Mercedes and he had to send it back for a re-do; so I don't know if I would entirely rule out a bad ETA just because it was rebuilt. I don't have any personal experience with the company.

Also, I think there was someone else on this forum who recently had a "bogging" issue with a 124/119 and it turned out to be a clogged catalytic converter.

Another forum member apparently had a bad ignition coil that caused some bogging.

Good luck.

I sent it back to them twice - one for the rebuild, one to recheck and rebuild if necessary. They swear they tested it both on the bench and in a car. They also tested both EGAS modules I have and say both are fine.

I was thinking ignition coils as I read forums tonight. I think they were tested, I'll ask the mechanic who would have tomorrow.

Cats were checked by a muffler shop. They said they are fine.

This all started happening right after the a/c was repaired. Likely nothing to do with it, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Do you hear any valve pinging when you initially accelerate?

If there is any pre-ignition or detonation (valve ping), the computer will retard the timing--I think by as much as over 20 degrees--and this could cause a "bog" under load.

The pinging can be caused by carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (piston tops and valves) that pre-ignite. Detonation can be caused by a low fuel octane, clogged injectors, bad EGR (the EGR introduces relatively cool air into the engine), over-advanced ignition timing (not likely in your case), defective knock sensor, wrong or bad spark plugs, or fuel pressure under load is too low (check the fuel pressure regulator). I'm sure I left some out of this list.

I had a problem with my 400E where it would bog under a load, but I could hear the pre-ignition noise and I backed off, so I never really pushed it into the higher RPM range; but I know it would have really bogged down (or blown up).

The solution for me was to run 2 quarts of Chevron Techron with a full tank of gas (twice). I don't know if it was a clogged injector or a carbon deposit somewhere in the combustion system that was causing it to pre-ignite, but the Techron was like magic. I started to see a difference within 100 miles and after the second tank, it never recurred.

Maybe you've already tried this. If so, disregard. If not, it wouldn't hurt to try. I would recommend changing the engine oil after running 4 quarts of Techron through the engine, though.

Sorry to hear your still having problems...


Keep after it - Jono seems really knowlegable on these M119's. If you ever want to drop it off here in DFW.. I can give a suggested shop.

I absolutely love my wife's e420.

Michael

And you're working another fine testimonial for non-ASR cars.

It' not that. I can get to a high rpm and there is no missing. When I drove it this weekend I was able to put in in 1st and 'cruise' around the neighborhood just fine at 4k-5k RPMs.

As long as I don't 'step' on it and build speed slowly, there is not an issue. It's also easy to get to those high revs in 1st because it requires less throttle than doing it in a higher gear.

Thanks for the lengthy reply, though. May help someone in the future.

Given that it's been a year, I thought I should get after it again. It's still sitting there and I don't know what to do. I hate to trash it or sell it as it's a nice car other than the minor fact that I can't get it to run.

I'm going to give it one more try. Current options:

1. Send ETA to Beckman to diagnose. It's $125 for diagnosis only. I've had 4Mercedes rebuild it and re-test it (sent in twice) and they think it's fine. But, based on my general experience with them, I'm not 100% sure.
2. Take to a local garage that I have not tried.

I'm leaning towards #1, because a)I can rule it out all together if that's not it b)know the issue if it is and c) if I don't do #1 and do #2, I still may not know (or have them spend a couple of hours doing diagnosis that is wasted.

bog
 

after sitting for 10 days or more I have a similar problem as emorydc8 , but it only starts once the engine goes to closed loop i.e. warmed up. then after driving through this situation for about 10 minites it clears up and the engine is great, until it sits again. I'm pretty sure it is the injectors somehow getting partially plugged, are there any service bullitens covering oem injectors?

These are complex cars, but they're still cars!

I think this car is being overanalyzed (I'm guilty of doing it to mine too, in the past)

My car is having the same issue, but only after sitting for 6 months under some trees. In fact, the 6 times I started it and ran it in park over 6 months, and the first time I drove it a few days ago, no problems - but now the fuel gauge is on the last white line, and it's bogging.

Sitting for 6 months, nothing until the car jostled around.....coils and plugs replaced 20k ago.......

It's almost certainly water in gas/trash/clogged filter or injector.

I'm going to be running a big boy bottle of Techron and a fresh tank of VPower. You guys should do the same (and swap fuel filters while you're at it)

Also, don't panic over codes and idiot lights. There are so many contacts to get dirty, and so many low-voltage situations to cause these lights that I would almost never believe what the scan tool or light says until I'd checked all the most basic components first

The airbag light comes on in my SL when I slow to idle speed and have all the accessories running. It's almost certainly not the airbag, rather the car shutting secondary systems down when the voltage isnt sufficient (battery, alternator) as these cars will do - wiring, grounds, contacts, all these things will set your dash lights ablaze and everyone goes screaming "oh those damned ASR cars!"

I second Will's suggestion.

I just went through "bogging" with my '95 E420. Sporadic bogging - usually after the car running OK for a few minutes, if shut off, upon restart the bogging would appear almost mysteriously.

Suspecting water in the gas or clogged fuel filter (which I had had once about 3 years ago)....I replaced the fuel filter. No improvement.

So, I drained the fuel tank (just aft of the fuel pump), and put in a full tank of fresh, high octane (Sunoco), and threw in a bottle of octane boost for the heck of it.

Voila, problem cured. Remains cured for about 3 full tanks now.

So, while not the solution to all M119 engine problems, definitely a solution one should try as it does not require lots of work or replacement of expensive parts.