Smells And Sounds Like Flooding
 

I have been going crazy working on my 93 300e 2.8l after having it overheat from a blown head gasket. Its probably easier to read the links at the bottom, but here is the quick run down. Car is way too hard to start, taking 30-90 seconds of cranking, and even then sometimes doesn't start. I'm not using it because of this problem, but really need it as we are surviving swapping out our other car to get around.

Replaced head gasket, injector o-rings, water pump, thermostat, temp sensor, OVP relay, CMP sensor, and checked everything twice including connection or vacuum line problems. Timing is good, both mechanically and with a timing light, injectors roughly tested, throttle opens when gas pedal depressed, exhaust comes out tailpipes with no out-of-the-ordinary odor. And once the car does start, runs smooth and fast, like there wasn't a thing in the world wrong. But this morning I got it started and took for a drive, came back, parked, turned it off, and same thing, still a pain to start. Checked codes and got a new one this morning.

Pin 14 Code 11 -
Fuel safety shut-off signal to engine control module
Closed throttle recognition signal to engine control module

Any ideas you would be AWESOME, as I have tried all the most common things, and this code is new to me.


http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1509403-93-300e-no-start.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1512326-smells-sounds-like-flooding.html

Bump, this is one for the gurus !!!!

with the engine off & aie intake removed...does the throttle butterfly spring itself partially OPEN?

IF not, that most likely is the problem. Will the engine start if you push very slightly on the throttle?

Have you re-checked the basic cam timing?

Barely any spring to the open, maybe a sixteenth of an inch, and a loud buzzing in that area when key is turned on.

Yes, I have checked the timing twice, and it is less than an eighth out on the cams from lining up with the top of the head, and once it does start runs sweet.

And I so hope you aren't going to say get a new actuator because an OEM one is $1800 and after-market is $900. And if you are suggesting that is the problem, do you have any suggestions on rebuilding one, because those prices aren't even a possibility for us at the moment.

I did get it to start quicker by lightly pressing on the accelerator. Tried again after turning it off and was difficult. I then pulled the intake pipe off to expose the butterfly valve, and had my wife turn the engine over without touching the pedal as I used something to very slightly open the valve, and the car started again. Is there a spring inside it that can be replaced to keep it that little bit more open for startup and idle? Would be awesome instead of replacing the whole thing. Found a couple from salvage suppliers in the south east for $200-$400, but still would rather fix the one I have if it is as simple as a spring.

Spring is internal on the throttle actuator.

Have you tried cleaning (scrubbing) with scotch-brite pad

Could this be a gas pedal cable adjustment thing?

did you by any chance touch the throttle actuator/ or its wiring while doing the headgasket? they are notorious for the same wiring failure as the the wiring harness...

Sure its possible I may have touched the wiring, but not enough to have harmed anything. But I will check the wiring to see if it is the old stuff.

Doc, clean what exactly? The inside of the throttle housing where the butterfly valve is? Or take the whole housing out and take it apart and clean it?

No, removal is NOT required...
Butterfly opens to allow air IN.
Simply scrub out the housing & butterfly with a cleaning pad, remove all of the carbon.
Then use an air intake cleaner to wash off the dust.

Cleaned the inside around the butterfly valve and the valve best
I could without taking it out. No difference, starts easier first time after sitting for a couple hours, but idle in gear is way to low, and turn the car off and ridiculous to start back up. Just like its choking on gas, trying to get air. I checked the external parts to the throttle and there is about a quarter inch or more play before the butterfly valve begins to move. It there something that should be tightened to remove that play. I have never had this kind of an issue on a FI car before, just carb ones, and I never allowed that kind of play. But for all I know, thats how this one is supposed to be. Any idea?

Tried cleaning another time just to make sure, no difference. And yes Doc, I'm aware of how a throttle, butterfly valve, and its actuator work, been working on domestic cars for 15 years, this is just my first Benz and I'm not familiar with Benz specs. Going to pull the throttle housing in the morning and take it apart to check the condition of the actuator. Will let you guys know how it turns out as I have nowhere else to go from here.

I left you some links on the other forum. check them out first....

good luck

Thanks for the link latief. I went through the adjustments and they were pretty dam close to what they are supposed to be, but I also found on that page the way to reset the ASR. The actuator is going out but the throttle body all cleaned up, so I am getting starts in under 10 secs now, major improvement. Cold it starts right away. Once it does go out, I may have to see about finding parts to rebuild it or just buy a used one, but car is finally after 3 months usable again. YAY. Now lets just hope I can go for awhile without messing with it again. I have some work needs to be done to my '88 Camaro I have been putting off because of this one. Thanks for all the help and info.

Glad it is better, big thanks to MBDOC for helping. I pm'ed him to help you and as usual, he nailed the problem immediately!!!

at least now you know where your focus should be......your car has ASR? that is a whole different beast .....

Hard hot starting is due to flooding caused by leaking injectors. Time for new injectors.

I had the same sort of issue with my 1993 E280 - Same engine.

Mine was solved with cleaning the throttle body as mentioned. However, as mentioned by someone else, that year was know for wiring loom failiures.

Mine had this. I would do work like changing spark plugs, and weird things would happen to my idle - only to dissapear for months and run fine.

If you have had a head gasket done then chances are the loom has been disturbed - from my experiences this can cause very weird behaviour and make fault finding very hard.

Injectors have already been tested as was shown in first post, but thanks.

And Kiwi-bloke, checked the wiring, its fine, most of it has been replaced on this car already. And ya, the 93 E280 is the same as the one sold here in the US as a 93 300E. For whatever reason they just changed the badges.

Stuck fuel distributor plunger?

Do you mean the fuel regulator on the fuel rail?

Anyways, latief, I made a mistake.... the car ran fine for me for a day or so, then my wife calls complaining it died on her at a red light and took a couple minutes to get it started again. After she got home, I started it 20 without ever touching the pedal. That sent me searching again as that didn't act like the actuator going out. I had told you the wiring on it was fine because I had checked the wiring on the car side of the connection.... then the thought crossed my mind that this may well be the original throttle body, so I cut back the covering on it.... Son of a *****

So, now to take it out again and see it I can re-wire the dang thing. One more thing for ppl to keep an eye on if they are having starting or idle issues. Thanks again man.

Check for a post by J. M. van Swaay, I think he posted pictures and tips about rewiring a couple of these....

good luck

Checked, all I could find by him was where he sent one off to be rebuilt.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/177440-m104-throttle-actuator-harness-repair.html?highlight=rebuilding+throttle+wiring

It was on the other forum, I swear i've seen it over here though ..maybe not

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1448549-how-rewire-m104-throttle-actuator.html#post3519101

Well, back where I was, hard as hell to start. I pulled the ETA and rewired it as it had nothing left in the harness except for corroded copper wires and crumbled remains of what use to be the plastic insulation. It unfortunately didn't solve my problem. Is there a way to make absolutely sure that the ETA is the cause of my problems before I order one, as they are not cheap at all. Some kind of test to do on it? Once the car starts, it drives like nothing in the world is wrong is the reason I ask, except for the occasional stall at stops. After I put in the rewired ETA, took it for about a 20 min drive and then let it idle in the drive for another 10 mins, drove like it did when I got it. But then I turned it off and tried to start again and it took 30 secs or more to get going. I'm at my wits end with this, and nearest MB shop is about 60 mins from here (I live in a small town in the country).

Any ideas on what else I might check or ways to test the ETA would be awesome. Thanks.

Man, that is bad.....

I would hold-off on buying a new one before making sure it is the problem.....pm MBDOC and ask him what he thinks about this.......I have no clue man......

Check your PM

Haven't found anyone yet to tell me how to test the ETA, but I have another question. The sprocket on the intake cam has the ability to retard timing, so I am wondering if it is possible for this piece to fail in any that would make startup difficult. Or if the sensor for it could in any way cause problems with startup? I know its not supposed to make any adjustments until 1500rpms or somewhere in that range, but if either of those pieces are "broke" and not working properly, could it cause start issues. I'm leaning towards no because once the car is started it runs great, even ran it just over 4k rpms before it shifted out of 3rd going down the road after rewiring the ETA to make sure everything felt good. And I am still getting the error code PIN 14 Code 11 about "Fuel Shut-off Signal sent to Control Module". I so wish someone knew what exactly that means and what can cause it to show on the computer, because fuel is definitely not being shut off. Is it possible I am dealing with a damaged ECM?

I doubt that is your problem, but some of the techs will provide some input on this........

did you see this?

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1510797-94-e420-eta-asr-throttle-actuator.html

Pulled the ECT from the car just for the hell of it to test it out and make sure it couldn't be adding to my problem. Is this the right chart for testing a 2 pin ECT?

32* F 5700-5900 ohm
68* F 2400-2600 ohm
104* F 1100-1300 ohm
140* F 500 - 700 ohm
176* F 300 - 400 ohm
212* F 150 - 200 ohm

That is 20 degree C increments from 0 to 100.

If that's the correct one for a 2 pin, than mine works great. I had found this on an old posting about the 4 pin ones and was hoping they would read the same.

Looking more and more like I'm going to have to sell a body organ or two and replace the throttle body. Lol

Found an ETA at a salvage yard at a decent price off of another year, but the number doesn't match the one I pulled from my car.

My part showed: 000 141 53 25
When I try to find a replacement I come up with number: 000 141 57 25

This car is NOT ASR, just ABS. I had misunderstood and thought if you had one, you had both but found out that is not the case. Is this just the new number for it as the one on mine was the original from '93? Looking at parts places, I keep getting the second number, so I'm fairly sure but would like to know if someone could verify somehow.

Also, what are the possibilities that the ECU had been damaged from the wires in the ETA being bare? They weren't crumbling, they were mostly dirt, and some of the copper had corroded. Found one of those at what I consider a steal, so may grab it also just in case. Still haven't found a way to verify 100% that the ETA is my problem, but most everything has already been done to the car.

Well, got there and the ones they had still had the old crap wiring on them, so it was a bust trying to get the ETA replaced this week.

There is something new I have noticed in the last couple days, the tach shakes most all the time and the speedometer shakes on acceleration and wobbles bad when braking. Could this be tied in with the problems I have been having, or is something new about to happen? I am so hoping that it is a clue to help nail down the persistent starting problem. Thanks for any ideas.