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anyone tried Enviro-safe refrigerant in a 126?
Just installed a new R134 specific expansion valve, and new (rebuilt) A6 compressor in my 85 380SE. Have prevously flushed the entire system, and will be installing a new drier prior to vacuuming the system down. Have added the required PAG 150 that the A6 calls for with R134A,.....was just checking out Enviro-Safe's refrigerant,.....sounds great,....found one video on Youtube with a guy having just installed it in his 86 Monte Carlo,...and he mentions that his evaporator is icing up at idle.
Wondering if anyone has tried this in a 126 chassis car. They claim its 32% more efficient than even R12! Anyone tried it? Brian in Austin |
I run the ES stuff in my 190E. I was getting high 30's at my center vent. I'm pretty pleased with its performance.
I've got R12 in my 420SEL and it only gets maybe into the low 50's on a good day. I gave it a try on the 190E because I knew I had a small leak that would eventually empty the system as it had in the past. It was getting rather hot in the summer and I figured what the hell, its pretty cheap. I'd already paid for R12 once when I first got the car and again when they put a dye in to find the leak. The leak was never found so its possible that its more near the evaporator. I threw the ES stuff in and its still holding a charge a year later and running nice and cold... You'll hear a lot of people speak against stuff like ES-12 because its a butane/propane/isobutane type fluid and as such is flamable. However I don't think its flashpoint is much different than R134A. Freeze-12 is another commonly used refrigerant. I tried this as well, its cooling performance was poor compared to the ES-12 stuff. F-12 is 134A based. |
I had success with Envirosafe in a W124 with a weak compressor. It would barely cool with r134 and with ES it work well enough that I never replaced the compressor.
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I put it in a 126 that has R-12 in it. That was 2 years ago and it has been marvelous ever since. I still have about 9 bottles left. I even put a can in a 124 Diesel I had and it worked perfectly.
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ES-12a is propane. I've used it on a couple of cars and it's hit and miss.
On my old 1991 560SEL, it worked well. On my 88 560SEC, it's hit and miss (past 90 degrees it sucks). On my latest 560SEC purchase, which was converted to R134, it blew cool but not cold. I sucked it out and installed ES-12a, it was not cold at all. So I sucked it out and put R12 in and it blew cold. So on this one car which I suspect has a marginally working A/C system R134 is cool ES-12a is ineffective R12 is cold. I just charged a buddy's 300SD this weekend and it worked quite well. |
wondering if you pulled too much vacuum before charging the system. The guy I spoke to today stated that about -5 was optimum.
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I charged all the cars and all the gases the same way by pulling a vac for at least 40 mins and then charging. I get consistent results with R12 but not with ES-12a which is why I say it's hit and miss.
Being that it's cheap, it's worth trying. But from my findings, it does not work as well as R12 in all applications and if you're going to spend any money on the a/c system, then it may be worthwhile converting to R134. |
Yeah, The customer service rep I spoke with yesterday stressed that only a medium or even NO vacuum whas better than a deep vacuum,....I would call ES about this.
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I've never heard of "too much vacuum" before charging. "No vacuum" is downright silly.
I think HC refrigerants (propane-butane mix) are a good idea. But I wouldn't listen to the rep any further than that. |
Here is a quote from Auto Refrigerants.com (and what I was told yesterday). This regarding their colder industrial variant,.....I'll check with ES to see if it applies to the Regular ES-12a
Introducing our newer "Industrial 12a" in the cans. (pictured here) The picture shows the original 8 oz. cans but these are the new 6 oz. cans. Each 6 oz.can of it is equivalent to 18 oz./Freon or 16 oz./134a. It is even colder than the regular ES-12a! It is a slightly higher pressure product and may be charged into a medium vac, a shallow vac or even zero vac. That makes it virtually mistake-proof, unless you over-charge the system. If you think the regular formula is cold (and it most certainly is), this Industrial 12a will amaze and delight. |
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As I said, I think it depends on the system more then the gas. On marginal systems it does not seem to work well , whereas R12 makes up for the inefficiencies. I don't think this is unusual, some cars which are converted to R134 which worked really well and others that did not. My old 6.9 was like that. It would freeze you out. |
From Enviro-safes web site
Here's cut and paste from Enviro-safes web site. I also just called ES and talked with Zach in customer service. He stated that it is best NOT to pull a vacuum with the regular ES-12a with dye, and further, that the colder industrial product will work with or without pulling a vacuum. Moisture and air apparently are not issues when using this product.
Zach also mentioned that this is NOT a propane or butane product. (but is a Hydrocarbon) and that in 15 years of selling it, they have never had an incident of a fire or explosion. (they have heard the rumors) From the Enviro Safe Web site: (Link: http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/173/t/r134a-replacement-refrigerant-with-dye-can/details.asp) Equivalent Weight Installation Chart Download Chart (266 KB, PDF) For best results, do NOT pull a vacuum on A/C system. (I added the orange color to highlight this statement) (prices do not reflect shipping charges) QUANTITY DISCOUNTS AVAILABLE! Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant with Dye is made of only the Most Pure, Quality, Refined ingredients available today. Because Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant with Dye is so efficient, you use UP TO 60% LESS! Please see EQUIVALENCIES below. Each ounce of Enviro-Safe R134a Replacement Refrigerant with Dye is equivalent to 2.6 ounces of R134a and 3 ounces of R12. |
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Funny that? my ES-12a Cylinder has a sticker on the top saying "liquified petroleum gas" and the highly flammable symbol. Let's not fool ourselves, it is what it is. |
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According to MSDS, ES-12A, the auto-ignition point is 1246 F. Likewise R134A is 1370F. If you're engine bay, engine, or car are near 1250F I'd say you have some more pressing issues to deal with. |
It's propane, a spark will ignite it in the same way that a spark will fire up my grill. But really, i'm not interested in the conversation if it's going this direction.
It's been talked to death in plenty of threads already. |
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Wondering if those who got poor results are using the standard ES-12a AND Pulling a deep vacuum. Envirosafe states clearly, that with the non-industrial ES-12a with dye, that little or no vacuum should be pulled. Pulling a vacuum with the non-industrial ES-12a will make it ineffective. (According to Zach at Enviro-safe.
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Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.
after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote? |
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My first "experiment" was on my 190E where the R12 leaked out less than a year after it was charged (2006, leaked out in early 2007). After that I had my shop charge it with Freeze12 which also leaked out about a year later. Finally I said the hell with it and that I'd give up. I didnt have money at the time to re-build the a/c system. I came across ES-12A and at the time it was $40. I said what the hell, we'll see what happens. I bought a set of manifold gauges to attempt a more proper charge. I figured they'd come in handy on any of the other MB's here too. I charged it up and been working ever since. My center vents output a nice temperature in the high 30's. Its refreshingly cold. |
Just use R12, it is about $10/lb if you know how to shop... cheaper than the street price or 134A which is $10/12oz.
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Happens a lot in this forum. I once had a dork in the vintage section get mad at me for suggesting to chain a coil to avoid it from flying out during rear suspension disassembly. Ya, know, so the operator doesn't get killed by a flying spring? His excuse? - That I've never worked on a Wxxx EDIT: it was a W111 :rolleyes: PS - armchair wrenches: You have NO RIGHT to comment if you've never been dirty working on a car. Yes, regurgitation of popular internet mythology only read and not experienced should not be allowed. Grammar Nazis fall into this same category. |
On a pelican Porsche board, there is mention of always pulling a deep vacuum, even if using ES-12a, and then just slowly charging until vent temps go down... In other words, rely upon temperature, not pressure to ensure that the system is charged, and then you wont be overcharged.
I assume that the starting from deep vacuum bit just implies that the static equilibria of the ES-12a at ambient temperatures when the system was vacuumed is such that too much could actually enter the system. While I can see that this might be the case from the basis of thermodynamics and P1V1=P2V2, where P is the same and V just substantially grew, careful, slow installation of ES-12a should prevent any overcharge. So then the question really becomes one of if it is better for the system to be vacuumed or not. ES says it doenst matter because the HCs dont break down, and their odorant doesnt contain sulfur compounds that will form acids. Still, I prefer the concept of a bone dry system regardless, and would rather see a deep vacuum. Has anyone successfully charged ES-12a from a bone dry, deep vacuum system? Uncle Rico on the Pelican Porsche board has done so and done some tests, but I dont think he contributes there anymore... |
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Enviro-Safe Refrigerants Also found this: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/230960-industrial-es12a%3D-40-degrees-f.html |
As mentioned in a couple of my earlier posts, I pulled down a vacuum for about 40 minutes which should be enough in my case as I did not open my system up.
Again, on some cars, ES-12a worked pretty well while on others, not so much. A/C performance on cars which produced mediocre results with ES-12a improved vastly with R12. I use it now mostly for testing purposes as some leaks appear under pressure. You may get good luck with it in NJ as it doesn't get as hot as it does here in TX. Good luck! |
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They claim its all about overcharging, which is OK, in theory that may be the case, as there is less volume for the refrigerant to go into if there is 14.7psi of air in there... But my question goes back to why, if someone is careful, can they not fill into a vacuum? Notionally these guys are saying its OK because of either liability (propane pressure runaway) or some performance aspect that a layperson may create. But for someone careful and with half decent skill, there is no reason, IMO to not fill from a vacuum. You just dont fill a huge bulk right away, and you dont let the system equilibrate through the gauges... Of course that is why everything is valved, as ANY system can be overcharged, and one should always be monitoring vent temps on a fill. Quote:
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So I got some ES12 for my SDL. The seller on eBay included a nice little note on the top of the box:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-B.../P81405100.jpg Perhaps he was sniffing too much of the stuff :rolleyes: Anyway... I hope to get this charged up today. It will be very hot out so that should work well. I'll report back! -J |
So I worked on getting the system charged... results are disappointing. :(
Pressures: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y.../P85425302.jpg I had a carpet blower and hose misting the condenser. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-f.../P85424800.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S.../P85425001.jpg The suction line is cool to the touch, as is the compressor body. Compressor, condenser, and TX Valve are new... I'm wondering if the "highest quality" URO expansion valve isn't working right? :/ -J |
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If I'm reading your gauges right, 30 PSI Low? 150 PSI high? IIRC you charge ES-12A based on R12 pressures minus 15 psi on high side.. ACKits says for R12 @ 80F, 18 Psi Low, 170-210 Psi High. ES-12A says it will run 15 psi lower on high side so you "real" range is 155-195 Psi. As an FYI, R134A says 80F is 40-50Psi, 175-210 Psi. Did you charge into a vacuum? Did you use the "regular" ES-12A? or the "industrial" ES-12A? |
What was the temp outside?
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Yup, 30/150.
Hm, So it's overcharged? It was 88% humidity. I used the "regular" ES-12A. I did charge into a vacuum, but by weight it should be close (does having air in the system somehow make it perform better :confused: -J |
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I had poor performance from 134 despite all new components. I figured I'd try Enviro-Safe so I tried the industrial version.
Evacuated, flushed and pulled a vacuum. Followed the directions to the letter. No joy. Compressor engaged, low side pressure 25psi, no cool air, 95F ambient, 40% humidity. Added another 6oz can just for the hell of it, 45psi low side, no cool air coming out of vents. Heater is not part of the problem, I pinched it off to be sure. I don't have high side pressures figures. Something blocked like the TXV? |
Heres the results of R134A in my 300D from today:
PO charged it with R134A. I had to add some in the spring. http://i.imgur.com/Ntx1Oztl.png Looks like it meets spec..but thats pretty meh |
So I figured out that my Harbor Freight gauges don't work properly, specifically the low side gauge reads low. (imagine that!) I'll report back when I get a working set...
-J |
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You can open plastic and move that little screw with flat head if your gauges are not set properly. I have same set and have to google proper instructions to set them right. |
Pressures look OK - if the low side gauge was really off and reading too low, then the high side should shoot up like crazy. I think propane gets to a runaway pressure point someplace, which is why they blend with isobutane, ask you to keep some air in there (bad idea IMO), etc.
I think that you might not have any real quantity of working fluid in there. With the vehicle fully cold soaked, and pressure on low and high side equilibrated, what do you get? It might be lower than the actual saturated pressure meaning that youre low by a bit. You may have enough in there that the safeties dont trip, but not enough material to actually flow around and move heat. Im not an HVAC guy, but IIRC, the accumulator or R/D needs to be filled with a quantity of refrigerant in order to work properly. The propane blend is input at a much lower mass than R-12/134a, but I imagine that some still liquifies in there in order to operate properly. How to tell, especially if there is air and all in there, I dont know. |
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