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  #1  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:38 AM
the tenor man's Avatar
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1989 190E 2.6 B3 Replacement Question

Hello all,

I have a 1989 190E 2.6 that has a faulty reverse...I drained the fluid and it is a "nice" shade of dark gray.

My son (armed with his digital camera) and I are going in to do some "surgery".

My question is: Do I need to pull off all of the ancillary items (rear, governor etc.) to replace the B3 frictions?

Any thoughts and thanks,

The Tenor Man

P.S. I've attached a photo of the "patient".

Attached Thumbnails
1989 190E 2.6 B3 Replacement Question-brians-car.jpg  
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:42 AM
david s poole
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: dallas
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no you don't all that can be done through the front after you remove the front pump,but if you have gray fluid it sounds as though aluminum metal parts have been grinding up into powder.there may be more here than the reverse clutches.
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David S Poole
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4696880422

"Fortune favors the prepared mind"
1987 Mercedes Benz 420SEL
1988 Mercedes Benz 300TE (With new evaporator)
2000 Mercedes Benz C280
http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/A...1159.thumb.jpg
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2009, 12:16 PM
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Thanks...

Mr. Poole,

I found no metal of any type...nothing shiny like aluminum particles...just the gray powdery liquid...

I drained all of the old fluid out of the pan and torque converter, changed the filter, refilled the unit. Still no positive reverse, but the fluid had very little gray left.

I then went on a long test drive around the neighborhood...forward is fine with no hesitation or flare...all forward gears seem to be fine.

I am a bit leery about just replacing the reverse frictions. I could hate myself in the morning.

I'll keep you posted and thanks,

The Tenor Man
__________________
Currently Driving.....
1987 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo - Daily Driver.
2004 Buick Rendezvous...Smaller than it looks!
2005 Mitsubishi Galant - Not bad for a tin box...Lousey Seats
Past Vehicles.....
1994 Dodge B-250 Van- GAS HOG..Succumbed to rust!
1989 Mercedes Benz 260E - Totaled but no one injured.
1977 Mercedes Benz 240D - Loved it, but SLOWWW! - Succumbed to RUST!
1976 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above! -
1975 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above!
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  #4  
Old 06-03-2009, 12:51 PM
david s poole
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: dallas
Posts: 1,822
powdered aluminum looks gray not shiny.i think you may have some issues with the reverse piston grinding on the front clutch drum but when you get the front pump out we will know more.
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David S Poole
European Performance
Dallas, TX
4696880422

"Fortune favors the prepared mind"
1987 Mercedes Benz 420SEL
1988 Mercedes Benz 300TE (With new evaporator)
2000 Mercedes Benz C280
http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/A...1159.thumb.jpg
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  #5  
Old 06-08-2009, 12:06 PM
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Still working on the Transmission...

Hello all,

We're still working to remove the transmission from the 1989 190E 2.6...hopefully within a week or so.

I found that Bobby Rahal of Pittsburgh can get the B3 piston for $110.00...I don't think that's too bad...and the four frictions at about $12.00 each. Hopefully, I won't need any of the "steels".

I'm afraid of a "bone yard" unit because it may have the same "no reverse" problems and most are really old and have high mileage.

We'll take photos of the disassembly...and post them here.

I welcome any suggestions and many thanks for all of the help.

The Tenor Man
__________________
Currently Driving.....
1987 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo - Daily Driver.
2004 Buick Rendezvous...Smaller than it looks!
2005 Mitsubishi Galant - Not bad for a tin box...Lousey Seats
Past Vehicles.....
1994 Dodge B-250 Van- GAS HOG..Succumbed to rust!
1989 Mercedes Benz 260E - Totaled but no one injured.
1977 Mercedes Benz 240D - Loved it, but SLOWWW! - Succumbed to RUST!
1976 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above! -
1975 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above!
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  #6  
Old 06-09-2009, 12:38 AM
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Hello Tenor Man;

For what it is worth, here is my experience on a 1989 190e 2.6. Reverse slowly failed, until it would no longer back up even a gentle slope. The fluid was grey, but there were no chunks in it.

The pistons were all fine, B1 and B2. The bands still had the printing on them: zero wear. The steel clutches were fine. The governor was fine.

The problem was a cage that holds a couple of dozen small coil springs, which keep the reverse clutches apart. The cage had blown up, releasing the spring pressure. The reverse clutches had, therefore, been at least partly engaged while going forward. This obviously resulted in wear of the reverse clutches. Fortunately, I took ours apart just as the friction surfaces were about to disappear, so there was no damage to the steel plates.

There was also a large circlip that had broken, but it was not generating any symptoms.

I got a kit with all the o-rings, gaskets and fibre plates, off the internet, for cheap. Most of the parts had Mercedes logos on them. Replacements for the rest of the broken parts. and a set of the little coil springs, came from the dealer, at reasonable prices.

Now it shifts perfectly, and no longer leaks.

I would advise holding off on buying parts (except the seal, gasket and fibre plate kit, which is essential) until you see inside.

By the way, the kit does not include the two large o-rings (size dash-153: 3 1/2 inches inside diameter by 3/32 inches thick) which are inside two of the asemblies. I used inch dimension rather than searching for metric. They were close enough that they might have been designed fro inch o-rings. The procedure for replacing them is set out in a pamphlet on the Transtec/Corteco website, if you are interested in doing the complete job ("K1 and K2 Support O-Ring Replacement", in a pamplet on Mercedes 722.3 and 722.4).

Good luck!

Andrew
1989 190e2.6 and a couple of old Jaguars.
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  #7  
Old 06-09-2009, 01:32 AM
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Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 844
Had exactly the same problem with my W124 260e a couple of months ago. Cost to do complete overhaul was $ 1,600.00 Aus dollars. Bought a low k box and changed over for $ 900.00 Aus dollars.

The W124 260e and w201 190e 2.6 share the same transmission. The W124 300 M103 engine has a different transmission.

The overhaul specialist gave me this opinion. Repairing the reverse gearing components will only delay the forward gear mechanism repair. His opinion was that it probably is good money thrown away just repairing the reverse mechanism.

It probably depends on the age of the car and how many K's you have done whether or not this is a cost effective job.

My transmission pan has this gunk in it. Coloured red from the trans fluid.

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  #8  
Old 06-09-2009, 03:09 PM
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Ivanerol took the other option, which is certainly viable, and even preferable if you do not want to open up the transmission. However, if my transmission is typical, then I think that the risk of other bits failing soon is fairly low.

In my case, except for the bits that has actually failed, the rest of the transmission was like new. Of course, after 19 years and 200,000 miles, the o-rings were as brittle as bakelite and the transmission had a severe leaking problem. After the overhaul, it is as tight as a drum. I am sure that it will now outlast the rest of the car.

If the transmission is coming out anyway, it does no harm to take a look inside to see if the spring container is broken. It is one of the first things that you come to when going in from the torque converter side. It will be really obvious quite soon.

By the way, there are a couple of transmission manuals available on line. The links are buried in the archives somewhere.

There is a manual for the military G-Wagen, with a 722.3 transmission.. This is similar to the 722.4 used on the 190e, but with a stronger, larger case. There are detail inside differences, too. It is an actual Mercedes manual. Some of the tiny bits in the valve housings are a little different, so it cannot be relied on if you forget which bit goes where in the valve housing.

There is a 2000 Mitchell Manual extract for the 722 series transmission as use on a 1996 C220. I did not rely on that one at all.

The Transtec/Corteco site was good for the article on replacing the two hidden large o-rings.

There is also a paper manual available from ATSG (Automatic Transmission Service Group), or Techtran. It was about $45, as I recall, and well worth it. It is hard to read, as the sections are badly titled and in a funny order. It is not always clear which parts refer to the 722.3 and which to the 722.4. The instructions are written frontwards and backwards, so that you go back up the paragraphs when reassembling. However, once you have figured it out it is useful. It contains accurate diagrams specific to the 722.4 transmission used in our cars. It is based on real Mercedes manuals and diagrams. The valve body illustrations are accurate. It shows the changes that were made suring production. I relied on this one the most.

Cheers!

Andrew
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2009, 02:40 PM
the tenor man's Avatar
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Transmission is finally on the floor...

We have removed the transmission...and the torque converter.

I thought the first thing I would do was remove the front cover...

I removed all of the bolts and then threaded two of them into the threaded holes and tried to remove the front cover. I turned them fairly tight but the cover did not move.

I was afraid I would strip the threads if I went any further...is the cover that tight?...or...is there something that I'm doing wrong.

Can the front cover be removed without dismantling the rest of the "beast"? Do I need to turn the bolts tighter?

Thanks in advance...

The Tenor Man
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Currently Driving.....
1987 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo - Daily Driver.
2004 Buick Rendezvous...Smaller than it looks!
2005 Mitsubishi Galant - Not bad for a tin box...Lousey Seats
Past Vehicles.....
1994 Dodge B-250 Van- GAS HOG..Succumbed to rust!
1989 Mercedes Benz 260E - Totaled but no one injured.
1977 Mercedes Benz 240D - Loved it, but SLOWWW! - Succumbed to RUST!
1976 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above! -
1975 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above!
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2009, 10:15 PM
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I cannot remember reliably. However, I think that the two bolts just gave a handhold to pull on, rather than levering the cover off by pushing on the case.

Again, I cannot remember for sure, but a look at my manuals suggests that the front cover and pump assembly should come out without disassembling the rear or the valve body. This should reveal the reverse clutches. At some point, though, it all has to be done in the right order, as there are interlocking bits that stop it from coming apart. For example, the rear shaft comes out the front, as I recall, and is stopped from moving by the governor and other stuff.

Andrew
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  #11  
Old 07-07-2009, 09:33 AM
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Hmmmm!

After giving this a bit more thought and checking the manual, I think that you are CORRECT!

I'm going to try it again and after I get the two bolts back in the cover, merely pull on the two bolts. I really didn't look that closely, but I'm betting that they are blind threads.

I'll keep you posted.

The Tenor Man
__________________
Currently Driving.....
1987 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo - Daily Driver.
2004 Buick Rendezvous...Smaller than it looks!
2005 Mitsubishi Galant - Not bad for a tin box...Lousey Seats
Past Vehicles.....
1994 Dodge B-250 Van- GAS HOG..Succumbed to rust!
1989 Mercedes Benz 260E - Totaled but no one injured.
1977 Mercedes Benz 240D - Loved it, but SLOWWW! - Succumbed to RUST!
1976 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above! -
1975 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above!
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2009, 09:42 AM
david s poole
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: dallas
Posts: 1,822
yes they are blind threads,they just give you something to hang on to .it should pull out unless it is jammed on the front drum in which case it will be harder but will still come out.
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David S Poole
European Performance
Dallas, TX
4696880422

"Fortune favors the prepared mind"
1987 Mercedes Benz 420SEL
1988 Mercedes Benz 300TE (With new evaporator)
2000 Mercedes Benz C280
http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/A...1159.thumb.jpg
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2009, 09:40 AM
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Cover removed....

I've removed the cover and was greeted with a number of parts....



Here's what I found after parts gathering...I found all 20 springs, but missing one of the broken pins...



The small B3 Piston seal is shot...



You can still see the numbers on the B1 Band...



Frictions worn but steels still in good shape...



I'm a bit concerned about the wear on the K1 Housing...any thoughts?



I'll keep posting thoughout the rebuild...and many thanks for all of the help...

The Tenor Man
__________________
Currently Driving.....
1987 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo - Daily Driver.
2004 Buick Rendezvous...Smaller than it looks!
2005 Mitsubishi Galant - Not bad for a tin box...Lousey Seats
Past Vehicles.....
1994 Dodge B-250 Van- GAS HOG..Succumbed to rust!
1989 Mercedes Benz 260E - Totaled but no one injured.
1977 Mercedes Benz 240D - Loved it, but SLOWWW! - Succumbed to RUST!
1976 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above! -
1975 Mercedes Benz 240D - Same as above!
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2009, 09:59 AM
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And that is why I am taking mine to the rebuilder! White magic light inside!
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2009, 10:19 AM
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good luck

Quote:
Originally Posted by the tenor man View Post
I've removed the cover and was greeted with a number of parts....



Here's what I found after parts gathering...I found all 20 springs, but missing one of the broken pins...



The small B3 Piston seal is shot...



You can still see the numbers on the B1 Band...



Frictions worn but steels still in good shape...



I'm a bit concerned about the wear on the K1 Housing...any thoughts?



I'll keep posting thoughout the rebuild...and many thanks for all of the help...

The Tenor Man
Good luck, keep going and I'm flowing this thread until U done.
BTW look like the K1 drum is gone and don't forget to remove the 3 rivets to change the O-ring inside while it already out....cheer

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