moving from Volvo 240 to w124 ('93-'95) wagon

[brockero]

Hello all - I have been lurking here for several weeks while I educate myself about the Mercedes w124 series vehicles. Having spent HOURS on the brickboard diagnosing my Volvo issues, this site seems to be more DIY friendly than some of the other more "elitist" Benz enthusiast forums.

I am looking to upgrade from my 14 year "relationship" with the Volvo 240 series ('84 wagon: 340k miles and a '93 wagon: 175k miles), to a late model ('93-'95) w124 wagon with less than 150k miles. I have done nearly everything that could be done by myself on the Volvos and am pretty comfortable with troubleshooting their quirks, and do all my own basic maintenance. It seems as though the w124 platform is the last of the more basic designs and this is what is appealing to me about this particular series.

I'm wondering what I might be getting myself into by stepping into the MB world as far as ongoing maintenance and cost of parts. I am looking at low miles, well maintained vehicles and know to look out for the common problems (head gasket, wiring harness, etc.) so I feel pretty good about eliminating 90% of the cars available. I am interested in the M104 engines more than the M103. I would have any car that I'm considering inspected by a MB mechanic.

So my questions are these: really, how much more complicated are the w124 cars than the 240? Are the parts that much more costly? I am not one to require that every doo-dad on the vehicle be working at all times, but I'm not interested in spending all my spare time tweaking on another car. I would also NEVER be taking the car to a dealer for service, but rather an independent mechanic for things I couldn't handle myself.

The Volvos, while durable, are not nearly as infallible as their reputation would have you believe. There are continuous little issues and I've been left stranded more than once due to failed relays, or some other "small" but debilitating problem. And one big one - the transaxle on our '93 seized while doing 60mph in traffic... that will get your attention!

This MB would be my wifes daily driver and our "road trip" car, traveling from Texas to the Pacific NW and upper Midwest a few times a year. We love the ride, quietness and general "vibe" of the 124's we have driven and hope that we're not just asking for more trouble. I am posting this here as it seems there is some crossover in the Volvo/MB worlds.

Any opinions and thoughts are much appreciated.

Craig in Austin

[Suped.]

Hey Craig.

I went from Volvo to MBs, having owned a bunch of 240s and one 7 series (I'm shopping around for Volvo's now, so maybe I have a foot in both worlds).

I will say, an MB (especially the later stuff) is much much more complicated than a 240. 240's are dead simple. I mean they have beam axles. They're tractors. Which is the reason I loved them. With an MB you have to be ready for 2 things that you don't really get with a Volvo. 1. Lots and lots of vacuum. 2 (If a gasser). I hope you like K-jet.

I see you had an 83 240, so maybe haven't been through the nightmare that is troubleshooting an old k-jet 240. With the MB you get the K-jet nightmare + a smaller engine bay + a computer (aka black magic, technically the system is KE-jet). LH-jet really is a beautifully designed, dead simple and reliable system (if you can keep the insulation on your wiring harness ). I really wish MB had started using it in 83, just like Volvo.

With MB, you'll start hearing things that you'd never hear around Volvos, like "technology" and "engineering" and "pinnacle." These are all dirty words to a Luddite like myself.....beam axle goood. Technology, of course, means tight tolerances which, of course, means things break. Unlike a Volvo, it really is hard to buy an MB for $700 that has things that work (like a heater).

Parts are also most definitely more expensive. Before I got deep into Volvo, I'd express interest in them and hear regular car guys (blue oval bowtie types) talk about how ungodly expensive the parts would be. It simply wasn't the case. Yes, more expensive than parts for an old F-100, but still not bad. Some MB parts prices are reasonable, some are just stupid. You have to shop around. Example: a timing chain for a Om616 runs anywhere from ~$40 to about $140, depending on where you go.

If you like Volvos and want to get into MB's, I'd really recommend getting an old 240d with a 4 speed and manual everything. It's a cheap option, most everything will work. Best of all, it's a Tractor .

[brockero]

Exactly - they are "born from tractors" in opposition to "born from jets" as my wife and I like to say!

That's my rub - I love the simplicity and solid feeling but am tired of chasing the gremlin of the month - usually electronic. The acceleration is fine, as long as you plan ahead.. But after driving a few cars, the ride and power of the M104 is very appealing.

Chasing vacuum issues doesn't sound like any fun. (But it's great to see the locks drift in and out!) And yes, I've avoided all the K-Jet issues. I also recognize that a lot of those MB systems are more complex and precision dependent, not necessarily conducive to bouncing around in a car.

We're also considering a 2004-07 V70 2.5t, nice and quiet, powerful, good mileage, etc. but a little generic. The Saabs are also really nice but I fear finding any parts, especially if you need help outside of a major city, (where we tend to travel). Volvo is esoteric enough.

Thanks, I appreciate the insight!

[whunter]

to a better forum for feedback.

[suginami]

Originally Posted by Suped.

... 1. Lots and lots of vacuum. 2 (If a gasser). I hope you like K-jet.

Craig is looking for a '93 - '95 with an M104 engine, he won't need to know anything about K-jet.

M104's are full electronic HFM and Sequential Fuel Injection. No fuel distributor/accumulator/eha system needed.

Another big change is no more distributor/rotor ignition system. Full Electronic/ DIS distributor less Ignition.

And HFM/SFI systems have variable intake runner length system.

[brockero]

Perfect - just the kind of stuff I'm looking to learn. I had pretty much decided against venturing in at this point, but I've been tempted again as the price of the car has just dropped considerably...

It seems as if now would be a good time to get into this era before they really get old!

Can anyone comment on how the bushings and rubber bits hold up? Are worn rubber vacuum issues something to give much weight?

[gatorblue92]

One item to be aware of on the W124 wagon is the hydraulic rear suspension. Parts can be pricy but it seems that once you have changed everything out you are good for a very long time. I own two M103 powered W124's so I'm a bit biased toward them. How much is the car you are looking at? Are there any service records available?

[liquiddog]

Originally Posted by brockero

It seems as if now would be a good time to get into this era before they really get old!

Can anyone comment on how the bushings and rubber bits hold up? Are worn rubber vacuum issues something to give much weight?

The market in my local areas already is drying up. It's hard to find decent samples in the Austin/Dallas/Houston areas. Especially if you want stock "rims". (Lol)

The rubber on my 1990 was terrible all around. But had over 150k on it, and probably hasn't been garage kept in a long, long time. The steering is easy and cheap to work on. The ball joints are a difficult repair. I haven't tackled the rear subframe bushings yet, but it looks like it's going to need a $300 tool and a few hundred $ in parts.

I like my car. My wife hates it.

[porkface]

it's easy-price out ball joints, bushings on both cars. then do the same with ac evaporators. you WILL have evap issues with the mb. include the labor. then, remember the harness issues, 81-87 on Volvos? mb had the same problem, using the same vendor, 92-96. working on both since 85, i'd stick with the 240s. pound for pound a 245 will do better, longer and cheaper, than any mb wagon. much LESS planned obsolescence with Volvo. good luck, chuck.

[brockero]

The car I'm focusing on is a 93 300te with 112k. The owner is asking $5500 obo.

1993 Mercedes Benz 300 TE

The car was his mothers originally. California car, no rust, service records nearly complete and all work done at a MB dealer up to about 90k. He has already done most of the big things, wiring harness, suspension all around, head gasket. I've driven the car it's very nice, but still has a few issues. Passenger seat back is dead, broken antenna - relatively small stuff. Perfect interior and exterior.

I didn't know enough to ask about the evaporator, but will try and find out.

I do know about the wiring harness mess - having to replace my old wagons' a few years back. Incredible the problems it solved!

And I'm having the opposite problem - my wife has a romantic attachment to the Benz and is pushing for it - but she won't be the one that has to mainain it!

Thanks for all the advice - very helpful.

[Zulfiqar]

Originally Posted by liquiddog

The market in my local areas already is drying up. It's hard to find decent samples in the Austin/Dallas/Houston areas. Especially if you want stock "rims". (Lol)

The rubber on my 1990 was terrible all around. But had over 150k on it, and probably hasn't been garage kept in a long, long time. The steering is easy and cheap to work on. The ball joints are a difficult repair. I haven't tackled the rear subframe bushings yet, but it looks like it's going to need a $300 tool and a few hundred $ in parts.

I like my car. My wife hates it.

My wife hated my E300D until I repaired the entire undercarriage, now she always sneaks away with it, Her reason - it drives amazing.

The undercarriage repair.

front control arm bushings + ball joints (lemforder)
front roll bar bushings (MB)
Bilsteins all around
rear link kit (meyle)
pushing like (genuine MB updated part)
new subframe bushings (collapse them with chisel and use a jack to remove them)
new diff mounts (I used a threaded rod setup (pain + cussing job)
new general tires.

By comparison - a worn out W124 drives like a new Honda Accord, a well sorted W124 drives like its suspended on elastic rubber and the road is incredibly insulated from the cabin - its taut yet supple. Her car is a 13 Altima - driving it after driving my sorted out W124 is like wheeling yourself on a red wagon.

Personally I have experienced that owning a MB W124 is a good car even by today's standards, its very solid built and is a real workhorse - The american definition of workhorse usually is a beat up Ford f100 pickup truck with jiffy lube/walmart maintenance. a MB cannot survive like that in USA - its got a great deal more parts in it than the F100 - or in this case your volvo. So before you buy one ask yourself - are you upto owning this sort of car?

They are very durable - meaning they will run pretty nice even in bad service condition, but then repairs would not be a 20 dollar part. The good thing is that you can get it to 100% service spec again, I have never had any car that could do that.

[MAVA]

Craig,

I'd get a W210 from 2000-2002...The bug-eyed look

All modern, no distributor cap to deal with. Wires... Mechanical injection, reverse seal on the automatic transmission, non-OBD, and wiring issues..

I have a W210 wagon- it is just gas it up and go...No BS....

I work on cars. I have four Mercedes-all running, and two with M104'. I rebuild transmissions. The second generation transmissions(2000 to 2002) on the W21O's are bullet proof. A W210 is a woman's car. Just watch for spilled drinks on the shifter...The little V6 M112 is a great little engine...

My woman drives mine all over, and modern. The shifts are silky smooth for those years. Tough car to beat for service and usage.

Do not be afraid of the SLS on these(124 or w210) cars, but do roll on ramps to look for this nasty rust that builds on the SLS fittings near in-front of differential on the uni-body of the car. Also, look for oily dips on the lower half of each rear shocks. Move up the springy coily plastic upper cover for each bottom rear shock for wet leaks
The ride height can be adjusted on these cars..To protect the SLS do a fluid exchange from the front, but then when you get any car change all the fluids, thermostat, overflow tank cap, coolant hoses, fuel filter, and raditaor petcock, so you have a solid reliable car...

Just change all the fluids on a timely bases..

MArtin

[brockero]

Mava - yes, that generation was also on my short list. But kind of skipped over it for fear of even less self service-ability. But you can get into them cheap around here! I'll reconsider them...

Zulfiquar - that is exactly the question I'm trying to resolve. I am getting great feedback here from folks with more experience than me. I'll admit that I can look the other way while one of my Volvos needs attention, knowing I can get by for a little while ignoring it... But this may not be the best tack for Mercedes?

[suginami]

Originally Posted by MAVA

Craig,

I'd get a W210 from 2000-2002...The bug-eyed look

All modern, no distributor cap to deal with. Wires... Mechanical injection, reverse seal on the automatic transmission, non-OBD, and wiring issues..

I have a W210 wagon- it is just gas it up and go...No BS....

I work on cars. I have four Mercedes-all running, and two with M104'. I rebuild transmissions. The second generation transmissions(2000 to 2002) on the W21O's are bullet proof. A W210 is a woman's car. Just watch for spilled drinks on the shifter...The little V6 M112 is a great little engine...

My woman drives mine all over, and modern. The shifts are silky smooth for those years. Tough car to beat for service and usage.

Do not be afraid of the SLS on these(124 or w210) cars, but do roll on ramps to look for this nasty rust that builds on the SLS fittings near in-front of differential on the uni-body of the car. Also, look for oily dips on the lower half of each rear shocks. Move up the springy coily plastic upper cover for each bottom rear shock for wet leaks
The ride height can be adjusted on these cars..To protect the SLS do a fluid exchange from the front, but then when you get any car change all the fluids, thermostat, overflow tank cap, coolant hoses, fuel filter, and raditaor petcock, so you have a solid reliable car...

Just change all the fluids on a timely bases..

MArtin

I think the W210 are great cars, as well, and I whole heartedly recommend them.

The only thing I have issue with in your comments above is that with the M104, they are also "all modern" with no distributor cap and rotor to deal with, so that is a non-issue between the W124 and W210. They are both all electronic with a separate coil wire for each cylinder, so they are no different than than the V6 in the W210's.....also, it goes without saying that the 1996-1997 W210's also had the M104 engine.

[Zulfiqar]

Originally Posted by brockero

Mava - yes, that generation was also on my short list. But kind of skipped over it for fear of even less self service-ability. But you can get into them cheap around here! I'll reconsider them...

Zulfiquar - that is exactly the question I'm trying to resolve. I am getting great feedback here from folks with more experience than me. I'll admit that I can look the other way while one of my Volvos needs attention, knowing I can get by for a little while ignoring it... But this may not be the best tack for Mercedes?

The MB can also take a lot of neglect - just like your volvo.