First B service this week. Anything special I should ask them to do?
 

It for a MY01 E430 with near 25k on the odo. I plan to ask them to pull the oil out the drain plug instead of fro the top. I also want them to give me a saple of the oil for analysis - to find out how much "protectability' the oil has left. First A service was at 13,060. Frankly, I'm impressed.

Hi:
I moved this from the ML forum as it isn't an ML question.
On your Eclass, they should be able to change the oil like this no problem, on an ML it would present a small problem (big mess, soft bushings, etc). Of course they wouldn't "pull" the oil from the drain plug, they would just drain it.
Other than the possiblity that the car is over 2 years old (2001 built in late 2000 would now be 2 years old) and would then need a brake flush, you should be fine.

Gilly

Thakks Jilly. I didn't know where to put that post
 

The car will be 2 years in September 2003 (based on purchase date, not built date), and I actually meant "drain" from the plug. Do they perform brake flush/coolant change after 2yrs, based on anufactured date or ownership date?

Also, do the brake pads start to go at 24K miles?

It's supposed to be by ownership date (warranty start date), but I go from the build date and never have a problem. The brake flush is every 2 years, the coolant is every 3 years.
Some dealers will tell you it's not included, this is FALSE, it is regularly scheduled maintenance and is included in the maintenance commitment plan. I wouldn't expect them to do the brake flush at this service, amybe the next service. You CAN'T bring it in at the "exact" 2 year interval just to have this done, it is done only with an FSS service, not on a seperate ticket, so you may run over on time just a bit.
The brake pads at 24K? maybe, varies alot depending on how the car is used.

Gilly

As to draining the oil on a ML, my guys have found a neat trick. One can take an old anitfreeze plastic container and cut it at about a 45deg angle. Place the bottle spout upside down and place the whole thing into the suspension about 5-10inches from the drain plug. When the plug is removed the oil jets almost horizontally into the side of the bottle and runs out the bottle's spout below the suspension vertically into a drain pan.

I was shown this when I decided to change my wifes oil myself. The tech sliced up the bottle in about ten seconds and not a drop got on the vehicle.

If you are servicing this car for yourself (not the owner it will have from 100k onward) I would suggest paying for an unrecorded oil change at half intervals. MB has already got in trouble for telling people they could drive that far with dino oil. The problems they were having are just put off by only changing to synthetic.

and... If you would like the transmission to go into the second k or beyond you better service it at some time also.

Since its highly unlikely that you will own the car that long, its risk free to use MB intervals.

Hi Gilly,
I have 2000 E430, When I had my car in for B service last April, the service advisor at Fletcher Jones Motor Car in Newport Beach CA said that brake flush is recommended to be done every 2 years, but it is not part of the "FSS Service", therefore it is not paid for by MBUSA. I called MBUSA and the answear I got is the same "MBUSA does not pay for brake flush and coolant change".
Free schedule services means only items included in the "FSS Service". Other MB dealers service managers may be able to talk to MBUSA to pay for these 2 services, but not Fletcher Jones in Newport Beach CA. When I bought this car for my wife in April 2000, the sale rep said that ALL schedule maintenances for 4 years/50k miles are covered by MBUSA. Only when I brought the car in for Service B 2 years later I found that was not true. Gilly, Do you have info that you can share so that I can contact to confirm that brake flush and coolant change are part of schedule maintenances and are covered by MBUSA. Your dealer may have better customer service and works harder to please your customers, but not my dealer.

Darkmann, I changed front brake pads twice at 22K miles, first front pads are changed at 10 K with Pagid, second pads with ATE at 22K, my car is about 31K miles now and I am going to change both front and rear nest week along with front rotors, front pads will be Axxis Deluxe Plus which is very low dust according to some experts in this forum, rear pads will be Pagid. Avoid ATE pads, specially the front, ATE pads generate a lot of dust and it eats rotors like Gremlin.

Have a good day.:)

I would say that a dealer who does not see that these services (coolant and brake flushes) are part of the FSS service are not able to read the FSS sheets. It is all plain English that the Maintenance Commitment plan pays for all "regularly scheduled maintenance" during the warranty period. The brake and coolant flushes are "regular scheduled maintenance", but is based on TIME not mileage. If a FSS equipped car indicates that a FSS service is done, and a small "clock" emblem also appears, and the vehicle has gone very low amounts of miles, this is also based on TIME. The dealer should have no problem doing the entire A or B service based on TIME (it's 18 months, BTW). Then WHY don't they understand the basic concept that some services, such as the brake and coolant flushes, are included in Maintenance Commitment? In the labor time guide, they even have seperate entries for "brake fluid, repl, with maintenance work". That should be proof enough for them, WHY would they list a brake fluid replacement in the time guide WITH a warranty op code, stating "with maintenance work"? Because all Maintenance Commitment maintenance work is submitted as a warranty claim, and the brake and coolant flushes are part of it.
We have NO problem getting paid for these services by MB, the dealers in question should have their warranty clerks talk to their district rep (SPOM) about this. They are cheating their customers.
I'd like to add, as I have mentioned before, that the individual items can not be carried out seperately, in other word, you can't bring the car in JUST for a brake or fluid flush. It HAS to be done with an A or B service, so you may have to get it done a little late, I will sometimes jump ahead a month or two if it is "that" close to needing it done.
And a brief note: ALL work that is called for on the FSS maintenance sheet is paid for under warranty, including the brake and coolant flush. "Inspection" work that actually needs to be done is NOT, so if for example the sheet says to "check brake pads", the inspection of the pads is included. IF they are worn out, then it falls upon the owner to pay for the replacement of the pads.

Maintenance work that needs to be done at an interval of greater than 4yrs/50,000 miles is also obviously not included, for example the fuel and air filters at 60,000 miles is not included by the Maintenance Commitment plan as the car is out of warranty at 50,000 miles.

Gilly

Hi Gilly,
Thank you for your fast respond. You are right as ever. Everything you said in your post makes sense to me, but convincing my dealer, Fletcher Jones, that these two services, Brake Flushes with B servives at about 2 and 4 years, Coolant Flush with second A service at about 3 years are covered under regular scheduled maintenance during the 4 years and 50 K miles warranty, was not easy. Fletcher Jones service rep said only items in FSS section are covered, Coolant and Brake Flushes are in other recommended scheduled maintenance section, that are based on TIME, are not covered by MBUSA. I agree that they want to get paid for their services either by MBUSA or car owner. I will print your post and show them when I bring my wife 2000 E430 in next month for second A service, that these two services are covered under Maintenance Commitment plan, and MBUSA should pay for it and they should talk to their District Rep about this matter. I agreed that some wear items such as Brake Pads, Brake Disc, Tires, Headlight Bulbs ... are not covered under regular scheduled maintenance, and I paid for 2 Brake Pads at 10K and 22K and 4tires at 14K miles. The cost for these services, two Brake Flushes and one Coolant Flush in 4 years are not much, about $300 or less, but the feeling of being ripp-off is really bother me.

Again, thank you for your help and have a nice day.
:)

I would also asked to have the transmission fluid changed, not a requirement, but just good maintenace. timreid, enjoy your drive

Hi Timreid,
Thank you for your suggestion about Transmission Fluid change. But this Transmission is maintenance free for life, MBUSA does not pay for the fluid change. I will pay for changing Transmission Fluid every 50K miles and the first change will be in about a year and half.

I am allowed to enjoy the car only on weekend, my wife enjoys it on weekday. Sleeping in garage is not very enjoyable in the winter.

Have a nice day.

Well, I found 2 pieces of evidence that the brake and coolant flushes are included in the Maintenance Commitment plan.
The most important is from the MB Warrany Policy and Procedures Manual. Have the dealer look at page 3-33, in chapter 3-26.
It states:
"Any authorized Mercedes-Benz Center, passenger or light truck as applicable, in the United States and Puerto Rico will perform the maintenance services specified in the Mercedes-Benz Service Booklet (A and B maintenance services plus additional work required) at no expense to the owner."

To further clarify it, i also found an MB-NET administrative message, dated Nov. 10 1999, in regards to the Maintenance Commitment for model year 2000, it's message #00618, and states, in part:
"Additional work" performed as defined in the client's Service Booklet or the Service (Maintenance) Sheet for Flexible Service System should be included with the appropriate A or B Service as required. The additional work performed should not be submitted as a seperate claim(s) but included with the claim for the respective A or B service."

What that all means is the "additional work" is included, but you can't bring the car in for just the additional work, it has to be done at the same time as an A or B service, just as I said.

This message goes on to outline the coverage of the Maintenance Commitment plan, which is too lengthy to write out here. It lists what is done on an A and B service, and also lists "Additional Work to be performed together with Respective Service"
It lists:
Every 2 years:
-Replace brake fluid

Every 3 years:
-Replace coolant-water/anticorrosion/antifreeze mixture.

If I had a 2000 or newer Mercedes and paid for a brake or coolant flush (while the car was under warranty, assuming the dealer said "you need a brake or coolant flush, it's time for it"), I think I'd be asking for a refund.

Gilly

Thanks Gilly,
I will print your suggestions and show it to service manager at my dealer next month when I bring my wife 00 E430 in for second A service. I will insist that the service manager looks at MB Warrany Policy and Procedures Manual page 3-33 in chapter 3-26. Hope that this will clear up the confussion of who pay for these two services. I hate to argue about small change, but I hate it even more feeling about being cheated. I should stand my ground this time. I expected Used and/or low end car dealers cheat their customers whenever they have a change, but not MB dealer or MBUSA.

On second thought, I may contact other authorized MB dealers in Orange County to find out if they will do Brake Flush and Coolant change and charge these works to MBUSA for the 2000 car with less than 50K miles. If they do, I will buy my next car there.

Again, thanks for your help and have a nice weekend.

HTN

FJ is my local dealer too, try a different service writer! I have been doing business with them since they were Jim Selmons and I know that all advisors are NOT the same. Some are definitely more customer service oriented and will fight to make it right for you.

Keep us posted, my coolant system is giving me trouble after my first A service at 2years and 11K miles. I'll back you up on a brake flush and coolant flush with the service mangers at FJ.

My family goes to Fletcher Jones as well. Most car repairs are done at an independent shop, however.

Who is your service advisor??

It is true, much of the problem may be within the "advisor."

Good luck.

htn-430
 

you don't think they're double-dippin' do ya?naaaaaaa!they wouldn't charge you and then bill mbusa for the same work.......... would they?sometimes i'm too cynical.sometimes i'm not too far of the mark.

My suburban Philadelphia dealer (Devon) includes the brake flush at two year intervals and the 3 year coolant change was just completed at a B service under warranty. My service writer originally told me it was not included, but I went back with a print out of Gilly's prior writings on this subject, they researched it and from then on it was covered.
However, when my service writer was out, another service writer looked at me like he had never heard of the policy. It was my impression that all customers are not receiving this service under warranty unless they specifically request it.

For me it will be a moot issue as I am at the 47,900 mile mark.

Any idea how much I will be paying for these services when they become due again?

Glenn

Daddio,

I'm a conspiracy guy too... I have seen some questionable things going on!

But, if DC is as mismanaged as they have been, perhaps the dealers realized they could get away with it.

JMHO

I think the problem with "Free Schedule Maintenance" for 2000 and newer cars is MBUSA does not very clear about Brake Flush and Coolant Change are free of charge to the owner and should only performed with either A or B service. Fletcher Jones and other MB dealers want to get paid for their works, warranty or not. If they think MBUSA does not pay for these two services then they demands we pay for it.

I do NOT think FJ would double charge, car owners and MBUSA, for the same work, specially for such small amount. I had different service writer each time I brought the car in for service. I will try to talk to service manager next time when I bring my wife car in for second A service in about 2 months. I will show him Gilly's comments to see how it will be. I had Gilly's opinion about these services and showed it to service writer on April 2001 when I had the car in for B service, but he said "No, MBUSA only pay for items specified in FSS A and B services. Brake Flush and Coolant Change are not part of A and B services, therefore not covered by MBUSA". I did not press further because I felt "cheap" to fight for such small change. But I will press harder the next time because I do not want to be cheated.

When I bought the car in April 2000, I thought that if we drive 12,000 miles a year, we will have 2 brake flushes and 1 coolant change within 4 years and 50,000 warranty paid for by MBUSA. Actually, the car is priced to includes these cost and we pay for it when we bought the car. The problem of who pays for these two services is clearly with MBUSA, that is my opinion.

I am thinking about buying Motive power bleeder and ATE super blue to flush the brake one a year myself.

HTN,

I had to replace the brake pads on my ML at 10K miles. They had started to squeak and FJ told me the pads were gone. I said to them that based on my driving habit and how the truck was used that there must be some malfunction for my pads to be 80% gone!

Since these are not warranty items but the vehicle was under 2yrs old and only 10K, they did a good will for me 75/25. When I came in to get my truck, I expected a nominal charge $50-75. After all this was pads only with R&R, no rotors no fluid(I'll check on that). My bill was $196, when I questioned them on this being an accurate 25% charge, they said yes. That means they would charge $695 for a brake pad replacement, wow! Was that some double dipping or just pricey service?

I could tell you about an electrical problem that they believed was my battery. I saw MBUSA billed three times for a new battery and I'm certain that one time, they left my old one in. Who am I to question what they can get away with....

Check Larry Bible's website, he has an interesting option for you for doing your brake fluid....sounds like the DIY route might be best but both fluids in question are toxic so be careful.

I disagree, MB is very clear in the warranty P&P manual that these additional items are included in the Maintenance Commitment plan. It took me less than 15 minutes to find documentation to support this, and in fact could have been substantiated by looking in your own owners packet (Maintenance Book and Warranty Book).
The service advisor(s) in question need to pull their head out of, um, the sand, and check the facts.

I can't "make" him understand. If he would check the supporting documents, he will see he is wrong. I would encourage you to contact his supervisor and get this straightened out. He is probably doing this on a daily basis. Please let me know if you are willing to do this. If not I will try to contact this dealership myself. Maybe you can just forward this entire thread to the dealership.

Gilly

Hi Gilly,
Thank you for your time in clarifying this matter. It may be clear to you that these two services are included in the Maintenance Commitment Plan and paid for by MBUSA because you are customer oriented and willing to spend some minutes to do reseach. The service writers at FJ do not want to spend any extra minute to read these manuals or contact District Rep for these small changes.
If NOT all customers who purchase 2000 or newer car are receiving these services under warranty, then whose fault is it? Most buyers of $50K+ car
do not like to argue about $50 brake fluid change, myself included, if we do not 100% sure that these charges would be paid by MBUSA.

NOW, I am 100% sure that these services are cover under "Regular Recommended Maintenant". I WILL talk to service manager at FJ to straighten this thing, I will print this entire thread and bring with me when I talk to him. I will post the result later.

MLDude, I agree that all car's fluids are toxic, I am alway very careful when I do anything under the hood and I always dispose those fluids at recycle centers. I have warranty works at FJ, all other works are done by myself if I have time and if it is easy DIY jobs. Otherwise, I bring all my cars to an independent shop in Garden Grove. I saw Larry Bible's website about brake bleeder, it is too complicated for me to duplicate it, and the price of Motive Power Bleeder is only about $45 and has very good reviews by someone in this forum.

It is sunny and warm in Southern California.

Thanks all.

The new service advisor at FJ agreed to do brake flush and colant change on my '00 E430 without charging me for the works, he said these works are covered by 4years/50k miles maintenance commitment plan by MBUSA.

ML Dude,
The service advisor also quote me the cost for both front and rear pads and front rotors at $560,
tax included. He name is Larry Crecelius, he is better than all other service advisors I had seen at FJ the last 3 years.
I am thinking about buying all parts at FastLane and do it myself or have my indy do it, this way I will save $250 or more.:)

That Brake Flush Service Controversy
 

Gilly, I called MBUSA today to clarify this. They told me clearly that the brake flush is not included in the 4yr/50K MB warranty service - at least in the US. It's probably different elsewhere. I see you have gone in details to show that it's included. Do you know if there's a clause regarding US registered MB cars?

Hi Darkmann,
I had the same answear from MBUSA when I called them last year before I had service B done at FJ dealer in Newport Beach, CA. This time I did not bother to call MBUSA for clarification. I print Gilly writting in this topic to bring with me to show to service advisor. But I did not need to show the new guy any of Gilly opinions, he told me MB pays for these brake and coolant flushes at 2-3 years interval as recommented if the car is in for either service A or B when I asked him who will pay for it.
The best way for you is to print Gilly writing in this topic to show to your service advisor at your dealer along with Maintenance and Warranty Booklets in your owner packet. You should read these 2 books, then you will have a good understanding about MB Maintenance Commitment plan.
If you like to have a copy of my receipt that shows no charge for brake flush and coolant change, give me your fax number by PM, I will fax it to you to show it to your dealer. I am supporting you in demanding that MB should stand behind their commitment.

Darkmann
The rep you talked to at MBUSA is dead WRONG about this.
As a matter of fact, I can't talk knowledgeably about all the countries MB sells vehicles in, but I do know that there is NO Maintenance Commitment Plan in Canada (MB Canada).
We had one customer who lives here in the US, but bought an ML that was originally sold in Canada, and we could NOT do any free services to the truck, even though we could do normal warranty repairs on it, because the Maintenance Commitment Plan wasn't part of the deal in Canada.

Gilly

Well,

This is getting interesting....the answer you get depends on who you call...hmmm.

If calling MBUSA means calling 1800FORMERC then I know for myself that is a waste of time. They are not only uninformative but curt and rude, it left me with a bad taste and I'm a loyal customer. If I was thinking about Japanese alternatives that would have pushed me toward sushi!

Now I'm curious why one service writer says a complete brake job is $565 when I'm quoted $695 for pad replacement alone.

Sounds fishy doesn't it? Anyway, I told FJ they would not be seeing any brake work from me at those prices. I concur with going to an indy or diy

All the best!

Thanks HTN-E430 for the information. Also, thanks Gilly. You're right and when I'm due for service, I'll use your reference document and my maintenance manual as HTN suggests. ML Dude, I did call the 1-800-FOR-MERC, and like you noted, their knowledge is quite limited. Now I'm armed to the teeth about this.

Interesting Gilly. Remember when I started this thread I was asking for suggestions on what xtras to ask during the "B" service on my E Class. The service was done mid January at 24,490 miles with 1000 left on the FSS schedule. The car will be two years (based on ownership) in September 2003. I hadn't looked at the work order until earlier today. Turns out that the brake fluid flush was done as part of the "B" service. You were absolutely correct. What was surprising is that they did the coolant service and replaced the air and fuel filters also. The biggest surprise of all is that they replaced the spark plugs also. I thought that was mighty generous - unless they found codes that directed them to do so.

But to your point, the brake flush and cooland service ar part of the MB commitment and are free (US only) as long as they are performed as part of either the "A or "B" service.

Hi Darkmann,

Your dealer was very generous in doing all these services way ahead of recommended maintenance schedule by MB. Air and fuel filters are scheduled to be replaced at 4 years, spark plugs at 100k miles. Unless the code(s) tells them to do so, they may have to pay for all those extra services to make you happy. I will ask my dealer to change air and fuel filters at the second B service next year, they might do it without charging me if I ask them nicely :D

Absolutely!!! Unless they just checked every box in my service
 

manual as a force of habit. I doubt that though. The car drove extremely well - but like you said, there could've been some code or something else. But they've been quite generous to me in other respects also.

Hi Darkmann,
You need to look at your works invoice, not the service booklet, to find out what works had been done to your car when you had it in for the last B service. They may have a habit of check off all the yes columns in the service booklet, because they should not change spark plugs at 25k miles. You need to know what works will need to be done for your car at the next A service. It seems that you are driving much more than 12k miles a year, this way you will only have 1 brake and coolant flush during the 4 years/50k miles warranty. You need to be sure that you will have your brake flush at least once before your car warranty expired.

I agree with you. I did look at the work order. Unfortunately, my dealer doesn't
 

itemize warranty work. They itemize only customer requests. So all I have is "Completed B servicing per manual". However, the tech who works on my car is a pretty nice and friendly guy and I'm in there tomorrow for a different matter. I plan to ask him what exactly was done. Then I'll let you all know.