Mercedes: No More Superfluous Electronics
 

In some ways Mercedes is trying to copy the Toyota model, in working with the suppliers but it is also taking a step backwards by having less electronics than Lexus. Lexus has more electronics and is more reliable at the same time. Below is what Mercedes has done or is planning to do:

MERCEDES: NO MORE SUPERFLUOUS ELECTRONICS
In a move aimed at reducing “needless” functions and boosting quality, DaimlerChrysler
AG’s Mercedes arm eliminated some 600 electronic features from its vehicles last year.
And it vows to be more discerning in the future in terms of adding new technology, and to
rigorously test those that it does.
The automaker has been plagued by a string of electronics-related glitches in recent
years that dropped it into the second tier among brands on recent quality surveys. It
reasons that one way to minimize the risk of such problems is to limit the number and
complexity of in-vehicle gadgets.
In a speech at DCX’s Innovation Symposium last month, Stephan Wolfsried,
Mercedes’ vice president for electrical and electronics and chassis development, outlined
the brand’s plans to better focus vehicle content and improve the reliability of onboard
electronics. He says future vehicles will be designed more for normal users rather than
techies, with the amount of adjustable controls and memory settings confined to those
that are used regularly. One casualty of the new strategy: multi-person memory settings
on individual key fobs that get used only if a driver borrows another person’s set of keys.
At the same time, Mercedes is adopting a “zero error” policy that strives to make the
reliability of electronic features at least equal to that of comparable mechanical systems
for both safety and non-safety functions. Standardized software tools will be used whenever
possible, and suppliers will be required to test and certify all software—including
how individual components interact with other systems.
To help suppliers improve quality, Mercedes promises to provide them with more
precise specifications—and stick to them throughout the development process—that
detail functionality and durability in measurable terms. Semiconductors will be sourced
from fewer suppliers, which Wolfsried says will allow Mercedes engineers to work more
closely with each one to meet tight specifications such as those for temperature and
vibration-resistance.
Mercedes also has asked its semiconductor suppliers not to add new functions or
continually reduce component size during a vehicle’s life cycle. It says it would rather use
the same system throughout the life of a vehicle than have to re-integrate and retest
slightly upgraded units every few years.
In coming years, the automaker expects to revert from plastic fibers to copper for the
MOST (Media Oriented Systems Transport) communications bus to minimize dispersion
losses that can occur when plastic units are bent into tight spaces. But it plans to switch
from conventional CDs and DVDs to emerging HD, Smart Media and PCMCIA cards for
future telematic and multimedia applications other than music systems, due to the
temperature sensitivities of CDs/DVDs.
JUNE 2, 2004

F I N A L L Y !
 

It's about time!

I thought my '92 201 was the last Benz I would ever own. I just couldn't see myself buying one of their newer cars. They're loaded with unnecessarily complex "gizmos" that serve no real function.

They added these "features" in the name of convenience. Do you know what I consider convenient? Having a car that runs properly! Do I really need my car to be able to differentiate between my key and my wife's key so that I don't have to push a button to adjust a seat, or move a lever to adjust a mirror? C'mon... how lazy do you think I am?

American car companies have relied for years on cup holders, nonsensical "trip computers", and puffy cheap velour to sell their second-rate cars to the mindless masses. Mercedes used to be above that. Hopefully they're getting back to their roots.

Jeff Pierce

The fact that 600 features could be removed shows how rediculous MB has gotten in pandering to the gizmo-hungry first time buyers!!!

What's sad is the statement "Lexus has more electronics and is more reliable at the same time".

I find it insulting and ironic that MB thinks I'm so lazy that I need to push a button for something I can reach and use a lever, yet thinks I don't mind bringing in and paying for repair of these convenience items. Where's the "convenience"?

"Zero error policy"..."improve funtion"..."improve durability"..."improve reliability" --- it's all palaver. We hear it from manufacturers all the time.

It's all too little too late for my wallet. Kind of reminds me a certain space vehicle program. "We've learned from our mistakes and intend to not make any more mistakes in the future." Well, if the company is built in such a way as to allow the mistakes in the first place, how do we trust the formulation of the fix?

'82 300D turbo..... 'nuff said.

Cheers,
Wes

I'm with Kestas on this. I'm sure that many people who know me would take issue with this, but I really am indeed smart enough to turn the knob colder when I get hot and turn it hotter when I get cold.

I also have enough strength to crank up my own windows and enough driving experience to handle a car that is in a slide without a gyro and computer to do it for me.

When all this stuff is working it's great, but when it's not you are completely at the mercy of the dealer. I am an electrical engineer with many years of electronics, computer hardware and software experience, but without the guarded dealer software tools and other technical information I am at almost a total loss to fix the kind of gizmo gremlins that creep into these cars.

My C240 probably was one of the greatest all around driving cars I ever had. It was quiet, smooth, powerful, handled predictably and mechanically was as solid as any MB or any other car I've ever had.

Back in January I had to jump start it and a few days after that many Gremlins occurred that involved TWO DAYS of actual work by the tech to get it straightened out. Then on the way home from the dealer it flashed a bunch of crazy messages and then seemed to be okay.

Two weeks ago an electric window mechanism broke causing me to haul my family 150 miles on a hot day with the windows down. Then on the way to the dealer I stopped for gas and it didn't want to start. It then out of the blue decided to start and then all sorts of crazy messages flashed starting with Instrument Cluster Failure. Then it flashed a bunch of stuff again before I could get to the dealer.

I got a chance to get rid of it and I dumped it. The thought of paying for two days of technicians work plus who knows what in parts after it goes out of warranty was too much for me.

My 300E is still on the road and up in good shape. It is now my long distance car.

I worked myself to death to pay for that car for it to end like this. Things like this operate like a pendulum. I expect that in 6 or 8 years they will have corrected the mistakes that they are now realizing. Meanwhile I have a great 300E and a Euro 123 car that I expect to put back on the road in due time. I also have a stick shift Vette and the car that I replaced the C240 with (I'll never tell.) It's small, relatively simple and a hoot to drive on short hauls.

I sincerely hope that MB gets their gadget/technology act together.

Have a great day,

Yeah, I work in the 'quality industry' breaking stuff.

We just laugh when executives say things like "zero error".

The old addage is that 3 things are of utmost importance when developing a product:

1) Time to market
2) Quality
3) Content

Then we say, "pick any 2", because one of them is going to have to slip.

If you ask an engineer, they will generally say "Content" is the top thing.

If you ask a marketing executive, they will generally be fixated on "Time to Market" and "Content". Gotta meet those quarterly targets, and match the competition feature for feature. Dealers are going to be demanding the same. Repairs are a profit center, afterall.

If you ask a customer, they will generally say "Quality" is the top thing.

Would consumers really trade bells and whistles for reliability? In the long run, quality does seem to drive sales in a significant way. It's just less tangible and hand-to-mouth than the other 2.

One more note comparing MB's "new" approach to that of Toyota: Toyota makes an exceptionally good car. Where Toyota vehicles shine is in their quality control when it comes to parts -- particularly electrical parts. It is unmatched by ANY carmaker -- at any price. Go find a 20 year old Toyota in a junk yard; hook up a battery to it, and there's an excellent chance all the power windows, locks, interior switches, and motors still work. There's probably a good chance that the engine would start as well. The problem would be that everything else on the car would be completely worn out -- especially the body.

If MB has learned some lessons about electrical systems from Toyota, that could be a VERY good thing.

Jeff Pierce

Remember when the press used to rag Mercedes about the manually adjustable LH outside mirror back in the eighties. Mercedes said that a manual adjustment worked just fine, and they were right. Ironically, the mechanism on mine was alway stiff and it finally broke. It may not have been lubricated properly when assembled.

I found a mirror from a wreck for nothing, removed the adjusting mechanism, cleaned and lubricated it, and installed in in my mirror. It's worked fine ever since.

Back then Mercedes motto was "engineered like no other car in the world", and I think it was a valid claim.

Now they show ads with dragons jumping out of the engine compartment. Who are they trying to sell these cars to? Go figure!

Duke

Does this mean MB is going back to pneumatic and hydraulic systems?

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL

I think you reach an age...I'm 40something...where you are just sick and tired of every new gadget you get causing additional headaches and problems you somehow didn't have before. I look at some 20 something people I work with and they have to have "the latest thing"...even if they have no use for it! The only things I see as actually useful recent(post-1985) improvements have been reliable ABS and maybe on star and similar telematic systems, especially if you live in a sparsely populated area or are "senior"...

My grandfather his thinking along these lines, bought what must have been one of the last US passenger cars made without power steering or brakes, a brand new at the time strippo 1975 Maverick!

$1000 GPS ----> an $8.00 atlas, some planning, and some common sense. Map goes out of date - another $8.00 vs $200 for the new CD's...

$400 Dual climate controls ---->conversation and negotiation with everyone else (free)

5000 way Power Seats---->move your butt and a few levers


In the late 1990's(?) Alan Greenspan (about 70(?) at the time) was wondering what a $200 PDA did that a 50 cent pencil, a notebook, and some common sense couldn't do...

One other point: all electronics (automotive and otherwise) is now disposable and essentially unrepairable. The standardized transistors chips of the 70-80 era with numerous second sources that you could actually replace with a $3.00 Radio Shack soldering iron is now replaced with glob technology, ASIC's, and surface mount that essentially cannot be repaired by hand with any tools, even surface mount tools of the 1990's. No one - and I mean, no one - will ever be able to repair the elctronic modules made today 20 years from now, probably not even the original manufacturer. I bring this up because I've looked over the modules in my 86 SL and they actually ARE repairable and can be reverse engineered for the most part. This might make the most expensive and valuable part of a 2004 car the electronics package in 2024, not the engine or transmission.

Here's my 2 cents...

What disappoints me more than the fact that MB launch a sub standard product is their attitude to fixing known problems. There are always issues that crop up in manufacturing; the difference is how they are handled. Anyone at MB could research model weaknesses on this forum, for the W210 there's the clicking seats, window regulators, ac evaporators, cracking dashes, etc. They don't need BS laden management edicts like "zero errors" they need someone to give a damn.

On a recent motoring show they said that a seven year old Lexus LS 400 is more reliable than a brand new BMW 7 series! It isn't just MB who seem to have lost the plot.


I feel better after that!

Peter

My aunt has a C240, and it's been an excellent car, except for, wait for it, some electronic problems. When I compare the W203 and my W202, I am surprised at the increase in "technology" over my car. I USED to think my car too complex...

Some things I like about my "old" (6.5 years and not getting younger) C230...

1. Manual seats (sorry Yanks, we got 'em). They do everything the power seats do, except stop working.

2. Uncluttered engine bay and lots of DIY stuff like belts, brakes, filters, etc.

3. No traction aids at all. (sorry Yanks, we could get 'em without until 1999MY) Geez, half the posts have something to do with ESP and ASR.

4. Old-style wired-in radio. If my OE radio goes south, a very simple job to tie a new system into the OE wiring.

5. Manual day/night mirror. I find the automatic one annoying, always flipping when I don't want it to. one thing I sure don't miss from our W210.

6. Manual wiper controls. I can do it, and I like saving bucks on windscreen replacements.

Some things I DO NOT like...

1. Drive by wire. Okay, the cruise works like a damn with DBW, but that little motor is north of $1K. Sheesh, 100 years and the throttle cable suddenly is no good. Gimme a break.

2. Sensors. To meet OBD-II we have about 100 O2 sensors and the rotten AAM. MB needs to come up with an OBD-II and emissions legal system that is either simpler or cheaper to repair.

3. FSS. Whatever happened to the neat "schedule of maintenance" book? Oh, yeah, it's BACK. Guess they wised up.

4. The 722.6 tranny should have been ironed out BEFORE being put into 1997 and 1998, and some 1999 cars. Cripes. "Adaptive" sounds like "we're not sure what it'll do, it has a mind of it's own." I love having five "cogs" in an automatic, but make it work.

All told, this is good news. Let's hope it works.

I've personally experienced similar down fall of once great outfit.
Everything we did was of the highest standard and quality. After the founders retired/passed away, the coorporation lost it's soul. The "professional" CEOs moved in and things started going down hill. The once inspiring motto "in search of excellence" got canned too! I guess the motto is now "in search of CEO bonus".

I hope someone at Mercedes reads this forum(as well as other MB sites) and I'll bet they do.

Now! so Larry has a secret car hmmmmm . With all the clever minds at work here there must be a way we can figure out what it is. Anyone have access to satellite photos?

William Rogers.........

Conclusion to a long and boring thread:

The W124, and not a newer model, was dubbed "Best Post-War Sedan from Mercedes-Benz":D :p ;) :cool:

~Good luck and keep yours on road

Nautilus

William,

I will say this, I did not replace my C240 with another road car. My 300E now serves as my road car for my occasional trips to Kansas City (Over 400 mile trip.)

The car that I got is just another toy and not the kind of car that would be at all appreciated by most MB owners/drivers.

I probably won't have it long anyway because my daughter and wife both have gone bonkers over it and want it for their own.

Have a great day,

Awe, c'mon Larry. We're an open-minded group here -- with very diverse tastes and views. I for one have an appreciation for a wide range of vehicles. For instance, my daily driver is my beloved 201 -- a well appointed, well made automobile. My "hobby" vehicle is an '85 Jeep CJ-7 -- it doesn't get any less refined than this thing. It's like driving a motorized wheel barrel with an umbrella for a roof. But you know what, I love it! The thing is a hoot. The Jeep came from the factory as a piece of crap. But over its 18 years, it's been modified/upgraded so extensively, that it's almost a decent truck now.

Additionally, your opinion and input are highly valued on this forum. I’d be much more interested in what you have to say about a car than the knuckleheads who write car columns for newspapers and magazines.

So do tell… what’s this little car that’s captured the hearts of you and your family?

The anticipation is killing me.

Jeff Pierce

You know what this reminds me of......MICROSOFT. Lots of useless features that most people don't even know exist and yet the software crashed frequently and the security stinks!

Larry, sorry to read of the demise of your C240. I remember when you were thinking of buying it. It was a very difficult decision.

It’s a shame Mercedes betrayed so many long term customers. Sad that it took buying POS Chrysler and then POS Mitsubishi for them to even start to pay lip service to the effects of building and selling failure prone cars and trucks to well intended folks. Yet another reflection of our times, where the quest for the all mighty dollar encourages some to betray their own mothers. And everyone else that comes along......

Mini Cooper



William Rogers.........

Today's Detroit Free Press announced a new car coming into the market -- Renault Logan for $6100. It comes WITHOUT power steering, ABS, a/c, or radio.

I'm sure it's built without a lot of other stuff. It sounds a lot like my 85 Omni I bought new.

Renault is targeting emerging markets and has no plans on selling this car in the US or western Europe.

Larry, I remember your posts praising the W203, including the electronics (ESP in particular):
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/featured-cars/91604-1991-300e-vs-2001-c320.html

What made you change your mind so drastically ?

[[What made you change your mind so drastically ?]]

Ownership ..
;) ;) ;)

cil254,

I went and reread the thread you linked. I STILL believe that the 203 blows the 124 completely away when sitting in the drivers seat, just as the 124 blows away the 123 sitting in the drivers seat.

There is just NO COMPARISON. The problem was the nightmarish things that started going wrong and the thought of trying to pay a dealer to keep it going after it's out of warranty in a few months.

The car is just too complex. I think if I had waited a year after they were out instead of buying the first one off the boat, my experience might have been different. Notice I said MIGHT. The complexity is just too much.

It makes me sick to think about being in a position of having to give up such a great driving car.

William,

What leads you to believe Mini Cooper?

Have a great day,

Not just MB
 

My wife had a 2001 BMW 320i and our list of repairs/problems almost exactly mirrors the problems LarryBible has described with his W203.

After they replaced the rear differential twice to get the clunk to go away (which it never did...) we decided that we couldn't afford the labor/parts cost when this thing drops out of warranty.

Solution? We dumped it and bought a 1987 560SL for a lot less money. I can fix it in my garage, parts are readily available and not outrageously expensive, and gas mileage is only slightly worse. Best of all, it *always* starts and *never* breaks compared to the BMW!

We've been trying to steer others away from these newer "unrepairable" cars. Of course we weren't able to stop one friend from selling his "old worn out car" (1998 Acura 3.2TL in PERFECT shape that ran really well) to buy a "new" car (2004 BMW 545i) with the latest in electronic toys .. AND he's able to brag that he got one of the first ones around! (when did that become a *good* thing???)

Neal

New vs. Old
 

On many levels I hate to admit this (and I'll likely neve tell my wife this outright as the ML is hers) but I love driving my old '90 300E more than our (once-new) ML 320. It just feels like a real Benz.. the ML does not (built in TN, right?). Aside from a mysterious power-drop on Tuesday she's still sticking over at 15 years old and 190k mi. on the clock.

If I could find a good older MB with AWD I might consider selling the ML and buying that. Unfortunatly we need at least AWD vehicle due to snow (they don't plow our streets).

Well Tennessee is at least a border state. The ML is built in Alabama.

Have a great day,

What source was this article from?

Thanks

Re: New vs. Old
 

Oh, come on! I grew up in Seattle - Magnolia Bluff, and I don't recall a plow ever coming down 40th Ave. West. Some years it doesn't even snow, and when it does, it doesn't last long.

I drove a '63 Corvette up and down the hills between Magnolia and Queen Ann - no chains either. They wouldn't clear the fenderwells.

I did "cheat" a bit - the Corvette had Michelin X radials and Positraction, and maybe the 3.08 axle and close ratio T-10 that yielded 76 MPH in first gear at 6500 helped, too. ;) With that combination it was like a snow cat compared to most cars.

Duke

This is what our neighborhood looke like for 4 days this past winter. It was not until the 5th day the plow finally showed up to clear it, and then we still live another 1/10 mile further up a steep private drive.. :)

http://demo2.marlinmedia.com/winter_pictures/

I maybe have been born up there but now we live in the boonies.. :D

Ah.. :) I thought it was in TN...

Today after changing the brakes (which adds so much more feel back to the pedal its great) I go to adjust my seatback in my w220 s500 and the left mirror adjusts. I sat there blankly for a couple seconds and then laughed.

First glitch I've had with the car in 4 months that I've had it.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/x0rr0/benz1.jpg

Larry, Perhaps a little bird told me(doubtful as we live very far apart) . I could be psychic. Or could it be that we lean a lot about members on this forum ,let's see you like stick shifts,you belive in the kiss factor,you already have a Corvette and a 124, the car is small and fun to drive but not a traveling car, Mini Cooper fits perfectly! what color is it I'd love one for these Mt. roads...........

William Rogers........

William,

Alright already! It's a standard MINI Cooper, the cheapest one you can get. That means manual a/c, no sunroof, great sounding stereo with in dash CD, tire pressure monitor, five speed, 8 spoke wheels that look like the Cooper S wheels, front, side and window curtain airbags, ABS, multi link suspension, etc.

I was amazed at how well the "stripper" model is equipped. The only feature that it does not have that I would like to have is a cruise control and maybe the sport suspension. The sport suspension I am adding, someone even gave me a set of springs. The cruise is not practical to retrofit. I drove my last 240D a half million miles without cruise control, so I guess I'll manage.

After selling my C I stumbled across this car on the showroom, so I couldn't be picky about color. All of the cars I've seen at the dealers are optioned out to an unreal price tag and with that comes all the gadgetry that led to the tragic demise of my C Class. Since the gas prices went up there are just almost none except the demonstrators at the dealerships. I would have had to wait three months to order one. They put this one on the showroom the day before. It is Red with a white top, white rear view mirrors, white 8 spoke wheels and a hand painted pinstripe and hand painted MINI wing logo in the pinstripe.

These cars have been out three years or so now and it seems that the bugs are worked out. I won't ever be first in line to get the first new model off the boat again.

What might happen now is that my wife or daughter will take it and I will drive it long enough to order a Cooper S and wait for it to come in. The car is a blast to drive around here and for short hops to Dallas and such. My trips to Kansas City will now be in my 300E.

Your clairvoyancy is unreal. Have you helped the police solve any crimes lately?

Have a great day,

Larry, Too cool I think they are the smartest overall design in a decade.I remember watching the original M.C's autocross very exciting car ,made fools out of some very serious expensive sportcars
of the day both in pro rally and autocross.
It is very hard too get either a new or used one on the west coast at least where we are. The lucky owners I've talked to could not say enough good things about them. sort of like when the 55 Chevy Belair hardtop first hit the streets there was an immediate consensus that GM had done it right and had a winner.History proved that conclusion correct.With the overwhelming number of car models I think the new M.C. stands out with the best of them...........

William Rogers..........

Dear Mr. LarryBible:

Sorry to hear about your troublesome c240. However, I believe
you will now at least agree with me that newer Mercedes cars are like junk in terms of reliability. They may drive very well, but
they may also be gone bad AT ANY TIME, with all stupid problems.

I had driven several Japanese cars in the past (Nissan Sentra, Honda Accord, Toyota Corolla), and now have a 300SD as well as a 1994 c220. I've had so many crazy problems with the c220 and
have to keep fixing it all the time.

Remember that the number of Japanese cars being sold in the US is MUCH larger than that of Mercedes cars. Nevertheless, the Japanese have still been able to stay at or near the top of other
car manufacturers in terms of reliability, despite the fact that their cars have all kinds of electronics stuff just like Mercedes ones. Yes, Japanese cars may not drive as well as a Mercedes, but you need to keep in mind that a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla is less than 1/2 of a CHEAPEST Mercedes car.

You once said that your daughter had a very troublesome Honda Civic (new), but that might be only one of a few exceptions. The majority of people have great experience with Japanese cars.
Most people just need a car for transportation from point A to point B, so reliability is a very important factor for them. We (Mercedesshop forum members) are just a tiny minority who love the great driving feeling of a Mercedes car. Most people don't care much about that.

I'm happy the American manufacturers (especially GM) have been doing much better and even exceeding the German ones in terms of reliability. I hope we will be able to knock down the Japanese car manufacturers in the near future too.

For me, the 5 major criteria of choosing and owning a car (not a SUV or mini VAN) are:

- Reliability
- Safety
- Spacious and roomy
- Great gas mileage
- Very low cost of maintenance


The (cheap) Japanese cars actually satisfy 4 these criteria (except the #3). I'm 5'11" and I think Civic/Sentra/Corolla are kind of small for me. I finally found out that only OLD Mercedes diesel cars satisfy all of these criteria. They seem to run forever, drive very safely like a tank, are very spacious and it's very cheap to maintain them while getting great mileage. However, the newer Mercedes gas cars are too troublesome IMHO. Owning and maintaining them is like throwing money out of a window.

Eric

ericnguyen,
What kind of problems did you have with your '94 C220.
I drive one and I love it. Knock on wood, I have'nt had any issue
with it. It drives like a charm and the power train is rock solid.
I don't think you can say the W202 is loaded with electonic gyzmos...

Looking at new MBs today and I get the impression the 'elimination of some 600 electronic features' never happened.

I was in the thick of it back then, and I still am today. MB has increased the "user-friendliness" of many systems, but overall I'd have to say the cars are far more complex now than they were in 2004.

Tech
 

Lest we forget. This is the same company that adopted that clap trap Rube Goldberg KE Jetronics fuel injection system.
As a Mechanical Engineer I doubt that my colleagues and I could have even envisioned a more complicated way of delivering fuel to an internal combustion engine than that.
The dealers must have made a mint fixing that system.

CIS just exchanges electronic complexity (D-Jet) for mechanical precision. In many ways CIS works like a hydraulically operated automatic transmission. And in that regard newer cars are somewhat simpler... the maze of springs and spool valves has been replaced with a few solenoid valves. Now instead of revisions in spring kits the car gets new software loaded over the OBD port when it's in for an oil change...

-J

MB has fallen into the trap of trying to appeal to the lease/short term buyer market. That's where the money is. I have known a few people who buy or lease a new one every two years - what do they care of reliability? Assuming of course that the car is built well enough to last for two years - and most of them are.

I am beginning to think that the short term option is a good one and made the decision to lease a new Ford last year. I will spend $11,000 on that car over two years. No surprises. It's not an MB, that would have been $22,000 for the same size/type over two years.

Point is, I've got a lease on a decent vehicle that meets my needs and I am going to walk away from it when the two years is up - I don't care much about how its built or whether the transmission is well made. Ford is going to cover it front to back during my time with the vehicle which will last around 30,000 miles. I figure around 55 cents per mile with fuel. I estimated that buying the vehicle and keeping it for 6 years including fuel and repairs and my per mile cost would have been around 75-80 cents per mile.

That per mile number could go down over the years if the car is well engineered and has few problems - but I can't know that now. I had to make a decision with the information at hand.

The paradigm is shifting for a lot of people and some makers are shifting with it and MB is right out there in front.

Years ago they made cars that would last for years. Those days are over.

Edit: I just did a back of the envelop calc on the cost of ownership of my 99 E320 including fuel and repairs. It is about 26 cents per mile, so far over 130,000 miles and 6 years.

I agree with the idea that Mercedes tries to cater to new car buyser who only own the car through warranty. But even these people are now paying attention to the car's reliability. They are now wondering why the value of the car drops like a rock after the warranty period and are asking why the residual value is so low.

There was a time where Mercedes kept 80% of its value even after a couple years ownership. Those days are long gone.