Car Titles...this is why you need to have one... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

nhdoc · #1 10-19-2005, 01:21 PM

OK, now I am the high bidder for a '64 finny on ebay. I asked the seller for a copy of the title and he faxes a copy of the registration which is stamped "transferable". He's in NY and in NY cars prior to '72 don't need or have titles. Unfortunately not all states are like this. I know because last year I sold a '73 Mustang to a guy in PA and in PA you need a title for everything which is driven on the roads. It was a huge hassle for me to obtain a title since in NH, like NY we don't need titles to older cars (in NH it is over 16 years). Now, the problem is, I can buy this NY car and register it in NH but without title cannot easily sell it to anyone in a "title only" state like PA. When I sold my Mustang NH would issue an "antique title" but they no longer do that. The alternative is to use a "title service" which exists in states that will issue titles based upon afidavits of ownership and VIN verification but they can be costly (a few hundred dollars) and time consuming (weeks) as well as a pain in the butt (you need to have the VIN verified by a notary or JOP in most cases).

So here's my question: Anyone have any advice about buying an old car without a title?

I swore after the Mustang experience I would never do so again so my gut tells me to tell the NY seller to either provide a title or I walk. In his ebay listing he has the field "title" marked "clear" not "other" and nowhere in the listing does he say the car is untitled.

There are several articles online from Hemming warning against buying untitled cars. Some are for the reason I outlined above (you simply cannot sell it to anyone in a state that requires a title). Also, a title not only proves legal ownership it is a way of assuring the vehicle has no liens against it (unlikely with my finny, but ironically my '72 280SEL had a lien on the title when I bought it that had to be cleared!).

My gut tells me I should tell the seller to get me a title or its "no sale"...anyone else's opinion???

PagodaLover · #2 10-19-2005, 02:20 PM

I would agree with you. You have to weigh how much you like the car, how good a vehicle is it, how good of a deal you're getting, and how much of a hassle it is having the vehicle without a title. It's another aspect of buying an older vehicle. Not having the title only means you need to obtain one, which is a headache, I guess from what you are saying. Having a title is nice because it shows that the previous owner is definitely transferring ownership to you. This aspect is more important with newer cars, I guess. But you never know.

PagodaLover · #3 10-19-2005, 02:21 PM

It goes along with the that in all things used, buyer beware. It is your responsibility to make sure everything is to your satisfaction before making the deal, because once done it is done.

page62 · #4 10-19-2005, 02:30 PM

If the car is worth it, do the title service thing. A few hundred bucks doesn't sound like the end of the world.

nhdoc · #5 10-19-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by page62

If the car is worth it, do the title service thing. A few hundred bucks doesn't sound like the end of the world.

Not the end of the world, no, but if the seller represents the car as having a title and it does not I am going to ask him to get one, so he can waste his time and money and not mine.

He's a dealer in old cars and knows better I think. He knows the difference between a title and a registration (don't most people?) but when I asked for a copy of the title he didn't say a word but sent the registration - don't you think he was simply trying to slide one by me? Maybe I am too synical and untrusting.

boneheaddoctor · #6 10-19-2005, 03:35 PM

When I bought my '79 300SD seller overnighted the title to me.....not a bill of sale....not the registration...

nhdoc · #7 10-19-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

When I bought my '79 300SD seller overnighted the title to me.....not a bill of sale....not the registration...

Precisely! Everyone knows what a title is...it says TITLE right on it. Even if it had been an oversight in the listing, when I asked SPECIFICALLY for the title the seller didn't say "I don't have a title" he just sent the registration, as though it was the same thing.

I've bought more cars than I can remember and never had a problem until the 'stang...then I heard about a friend who bought a Vintage T-Bird on a bill of sale and spent a ton of money restoring it...when he went in to register it it showed up on a list of stolen vehicles...guess what happened next? The insurance company which had paid off when the car had been stolen from one of its previous owners got a nice, restored T-Bird which it then offered to resell back to my friend if he wanted it. He landed up buying it from them because they (fairly) priced it at what they paid the P.O. for it not what it was really worth in the restored condition. Lesson learned, the hard way. Get a title!

page62 · #8 10-19-2005, 06:10 PM

OK, let's try it this way. Can the seller obtain a title for the car in NY? Or does NY simply not issue titles for pre-72 cars.

Heck, I didn't even know what a title was until I moved to Texas...

blueranger · #9 10-19-2005, 07:09 PM

without a title its not even a car...
its a parts car....out here in the mid west
you could not even drive it... becasue you could
never tag it....a junk yard wont even take it without
the title...

boneheaddoctor · #10 10-19-2005, 08:05 PM

you can probably get a title....but until you try how do you know he legally owned the car? You could find out it was stolen while trying to get a title...then you are out the car AND the money.

Thats my opinion anyway for what its worth.

nhdoc · #11 10-19-2005, 10:18 PM

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/articles.tips/id/25

This is one of the articles I elluded to earlier...read it and particularly read the summary at the very end. This is good stuff for all of us buying vintage cars to know about.

cth350 · #12 10-19-2005, 10:28 PM

guys, relax. No, you don't need a title. More importantly, in NY you can't get a title. NY will "eat" the title on a pre-1973 car. If a car from PA or TN is registered in NY, kiss the title goodbye. I know, I've done it.

If a buyer in PA insists on a title, he doesn't need it. Tell him to hit the road, because he's just wasting your time. The NY registration paperwork that says "transferrable" is all that's needed. Otherwise PA would be sued in Federal court for restraining interstate trade.

The opposite end of the spectrum are great states like GA and AL where you don't even need a registration, just a bill of sale for old timers. GA has a more reasonable approach than NY. If a car comes in titled, it stays titled. If it comes in with just a bill of sale, they won't generate a title.

To bring a car from a state like GA to NY or PA, you need paperwork from the GA DMV that says you own the car. A bill of sale is not sufficient. Which is where those wonderful title acquisition companies come in. If you are in NY with nothing but a bill of sale, you go to a title acquisition company who sends a flunky to the DMV in a state that only takes a bill of sale. From there, they get the necessary DMV paperwork. You then take that paperwork to your local DMV.

Buy the car if it's the car you want, as long as you have sufficient paperwork to register it in your state. If somebody in PA has some time to kill, confirm what I said with the DMV there. As them specifically about a 1960s car coming from NY.

-CTH

wbain5280 · #13 10-20-2005, 02:39 AM

I Ga, you don't even need temporary tags. All they have is a paper plate that reads "License Plate Applied For".

nhdoc · #14 10-20-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cth350

guys, relax. No, you don't need a title. More importantly, in NY you can't get a title. NY will "eat" the title on a pre-1973 car. If a car from PA or TN is registered in NY, kiss the title goodbye. I know, I've done it.

If a buyer in PA insists on a title, he doesn't need it. Tell him to hit the road, because he's just wasting your time. The NY registration paperwork that says "transferrable" is all that's needed. Otherwise PA would be sued in Federal court for restraining interstate trade.

The opposite end of the spectrum are great states like GA and AL where you don't even need a registration, just a bill of sale for old timers. GA has a more reasonable approach than NY. If a car comes in titled, it stays titled. If it comes in with just a bill of sale, they won't generate a title.

To bring a car from a state like GA to NY or PA, you need paperwork from the GA DMV that says you own the car. A bill of sale is not sufficient. Which is where those wonderful title acquisition companies come in. If you are in NY with nothing but a bill of sale, you go to a title acquisition company who sends a flunky to the DMV in a state that only takes a bill of sale. From there, they get the necessary DMV paperwork. You then take that paperwork to your local DMV.

Buy the car if it's the car you want, as long as you have sufficient paperwork to register it in your state. If somebody in PA has some time to kill, confirm what I said with the DMV there. As them specifically about a 1960s car coming from NY.

-CTH

With all due respect CTH, I personally have been through hell with PA just last year and I know from that experience 2 things about that state's laws:

1) In order to register a car in the state of PA you must have a PA title issued for it. There is no age of car for which PA does not require a title, NONE.

2) In order to get a title for a car in PA you must present a proper title from another state or country or they will simply not accept the application for title. Even with a title from another state or country the application must be accompanied by a tracing of the VIN from the VIN plate to verify that VINs match.

I have heard that many other states have the same requirements and also have been warned by other people that their cars are "unsalable" in some states because they simply have no title for them.

I don't have experience in NY, but in NH if you present an application for registration on a car older than 16 years they simply examine the prior title, make a photocopy of it and return it to you so you can use it if/when you sell the car to a "title law" state. I suspect if all you do is trade cars in NY or between "non-title" states then you will not have a problem, but having a title allows you to sell a car to anyone in ANY state and lets them legally register it. Not having one limits you to only be able to sell cars to people in states that have title exceptions like NY and others.

Also, after knowing what I have been through there is NO WAY I would allow NY to "eat my title" to a pre '73 MY car if I lived there. It makes no sense to give them a title if they don't require one or won't issue a replacement. Why not just hold the title and register the car in NY using a Bill of Sale and prior registration from another state? Then you can always use the title when you resell the car. A title is valuable, don't give it up!

Bottom line is this: Don't let a seller who doesn't know the laws in other states tell you it's OK...you may just be stuck with a car that is unregisterable. Check with your state before you buy any car and make sure you know what documents are required to register it and make sure the seller can provide them BEFORE you pay for it. E

Even if your state doesn't require a title to an old car it is better to have one than not because some states DO require one.

GlennCraven · #15 10-20-2005, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueranger

without a title its not even a car...
its a parts car....out here in the mid west
you could not even drive it... becasue you could
never tag it....a junk yard wont even take it without
the title...

Not sure where you live in the Midwest, but I grew up in Kansas and you can get a car re-titled there. You might have to jump through a couple of flaming hoops at the tag office, but we managed.

My first car was a 1978 280Z bought from an Arabic guy living in Kansas City (with or without his green card). The car had expired Missouri plates and -- somehow -- only an Oklahoma title that was NOT in the seller's name! It took several phone calls and I think an extra fee to "originate" a title in Kansas, but with a bill-of-sale for the car of that VIN to prove it was now mine, the deal got done.

Of course, that was 1986, and the car DID have SOME kind of title that came with it. But it clearly was the wrong one.

Also, I'm pretty sure Kansas at least used to issue what they called "salvage titles." Those were intended to cover the possibility of pulling a car from the graveyard, fixing up, and putting it back on the road. Many such cars no longer had a title with them, but if you had proof of the important stuff -- make, model, year, VIN where applicable -- you could get one of those salvage titles and then when you resold it, the buyer's new title transfer would be just like anybody else's.

I also have heard from a friend who grew up there (though things might've changed) that you can get darned-near anything titled in Louisiana if you have a bill-of-sale. So an alternative might be to purchase a car without title in another state, have a resident (if you know one) title it in Louisiana, then have them transfer that Louisiana title to you so you can get a new title in your own state.

I just bought a 1983 300D yesterday in Virginia and will be jumping through the title hoops today in North Carolina. Every state is different, but as Mick has sung a million times, maybe you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you might find you get what you need.