1969 220D manual Transmission

[dpl]

Hi there Guys,
My mechanic just told me that it will cost me $418 just to look at my 220D manual tranny because after he installed a brand new slave & master clutch cylinder he said that the clutch is not going down far enough. He said he will need to take out the transmission just to see whats's the problem ($418 just for that plus $$$$$+++++ if he need to fix any part or problem).
Does anyone have a DIY DVD or orginal picture manual on how to rebuild a 1969 220D manual trans. benz? Or even a DIY free download on 220D Trans. repair-wire harnes bushing in trans.?
My mechanic said it might be a problem in the transmission wire harnes and bushing plate this might by why the clutch will not go down far enough but he is not sure.
This mechanic was recomanded to me the shop forum G & G ******** after spending over $1,800 with them the last 3 months it about time I take control as a DIY mechanic. I think that they are a ripoff!!!!
Your help on this matter will be highly appreaciated.
Thanks
and praying for an answer from you guys soon.
dpl peace

[sjefke]

Welcome, you definitely came to a good group of folks who have been there and done it. I had a similar problem with my clutch. If your mechanic has replaced both slave and master cylinder, make sure he has bled it correctly. Air can cause problems and hydraulic clutches are real finnicky.

Not sure what you original problem was, but if your clutch was slipping before you brought it in, it probably needs a new disk. A broken pressure plate can also cause problems. If you hear grinding noises, your release bearing may be broken which also causes clutch problems. To repair this, transmission has to come out. If you don't hear any noises when depressing clutch while car is running, but clutch will not allow you to engage gears, I suggest you rebleed the system and check whether the correct slave cylinder was installed (I have had my share of wrongly supplied parts to suspect everything). I have no clue what the harness is what you are referring to. Anything electrical should not interfere with a hydraulic clutch.

Others my have differenty opinions/help.

Good luck,

Bert

[300SDog]

What were the symptoms before replacing the slave and mc? Is this new problem or old problem reoccurring?

Hope ye held onto the old slave cyl too. MB mixed and matched slave cyls throughout the years. 1970's 123's for example used coupla different slaves with differing throws. Common mistake is wrong slave cyl installed because all of em bolt right up the same.

If the problem is new then maybe reinstall the old slave yerself, "reverse bleed" the system by pumping the brakes with left front bleed nipple routed to slave cyl bleed nipple with rubber hose to push air UP into the reservoir thats how its done.

My mechanic said it might be a problem in the transmission wire harnes and bushing plate this might by why the clutch will not go down far enough but he is not sure.

This sounds like gibberish..... what in the world "wire harness" is he talkin about? And "bushing plate" sounds like gobble-dee-gook too. Maybe what all this lingo means is new slave cyl travel doesnt match throwout bearing arm, meaning he installed the wrong slave cyl as I've said.

C'mon back and tell us exactly the history of symptoms. Entire new clutch plate, disc, bearings etc oughta be fewer than 5 hrs labor installed. His estimate of $418 sounds like he bills at $100 per hour. Oughta be no more than 4hrs total for tranny in and out.

[dpl]

Thanks guys for giving me some lead way on this problem. I will be going to him on wednesday morning. He told me some mess about the transmission bushing and wire harnes that when I finally realize that he was a ripoff. I will follow your advice and do the work myself.
Is there any information on how to DIY on clutch and tanny for the 220D? Please help if you can.
thanks
dpl

[t walgamuth]

Please tell us what it was doing to prompt the work.

Tom W

[wbain5280]

These things are adjustable. Check the clutch pedal ecentric and the slave cyl pin adjustment. Also, make sure the hose isn't kinked.

[sjefke]

Transmission bushing issue could be true, depending on your original problem. If bushing has seized onto the transmission input shaft, then pressing clutch will not disengage transmission from engine rpm.

And 300sdog is right: they could have easily ordered the wrong parts. I still have a OEM master and slave for a 280SE/c here that were supposed to fit in my car according to the parts supplier, but they were wrong too (for 6 cyl instead of V8).

The harness statement does not make sense unless you misunderstood the mechanic. Do you have a column shifter by any chance?

You need to let us know what your original problem is.

Bert

[Mike D]

$100 an hour is about the going rate for a new customer depending on the location.

Here in the land of cheap labor the rate is still $75+ an hour depending on technical difficulty.

Go to a "big rig" truck repair shop if you want your heart to stop. I've seen $250 an hour charges for "road repairs" (travel time NOT included).

[300SDog]

Originally Posted by sjefke

Transmission bushing issue could be true, depending on your original problem. If bushing has seized onto the transmission input shaft, then pressing clutch will not disengage transmission from engine rpm.

Bert

Ahh, now i understand "bushing plate" refers to clutch disc that could be stickin on splines of the shaft..... Dummy that i am, never heard clutch disc called a bushing before. Yep, that could specially be true if car's spent a few years off the road. Oughta free itself up though even with brisk 2 hour highspeed trip heatin it up and pumping the clutch pedal a few times while feathering the accelerator at 75mph or so.

Meanwhile maybe by "wiring harness" the tech's talkin about wiring harness junk under the dash interfering with the pedal? But hell that dont make much sense if he installed the MC located there himself, shoulda tucked away wiring harness interference.

And thats a good question askin if its column shift linkage. Famous problem there is folks treatin the column shift lever like handrest and then wondering why trans shift linkage tree and socket bushings die an early death. Course we never know how these cars been driven by previous owners.

dpl, ye gotta provide summary and timeline of symptoms for us to help ye. Like is the car recently waked up from hibernation undriven several years? Then plates stickin is nothin weird and can work themselves lose specially if ye take yer '69 220D on high speed 'italian tune-up' to loosen it up, as I've said.

Also as emergency measure try "double clutching" if yer grinding gears. This means feathering the clutch at neutral in between shifts to help match transmission gear speeds with flywheel rpm's for smoother shifting.

(edit: something else to consider is cracked/porous clutch hydraulic line that could be letting in air leading to the slave. MB is notorious for their fabric wrapped hoses secretly concealing cracked worn out rubber underneath. Probly the rubber hydraulic clutch hose should be replaced on all 4-spd 115's as cheap inexpensive, easy to replace item of routine/preventive maintenance. This simple item could *easily* be major contributing factor to whatever probs ye been having with clutch and/or shifting gears.

[sjefke]

Nope, bushing is not the clutch disk. It's a bushing that is inside the end of the crankshaft and the transmission shaft fits into it. It should be a loose fit. If not, crankshaft and transmission shaft are connected always. Clutch friction disk is irrelevant then.

I must say I have never had a problem with that in any of my cars. Big thing is to always put some grease in the bushing whenever you have the tranny separated from the engine before putting it all together.

Bert

[ja17]

Hello,

Sounds like the transmission may be ok but you need to replace the mechanic!

[300SDog]

Aha, the plot thickens...... tech's term "bushing plate" aint the clutch disc but it's now what I'd call the pilot bearing. Yet if that bit's crunched then the shaft must be makin helluva spinning racket even in neutral. And gotta be diagnosable with stethoscope to bell housing at least.

I guess there haint no chance in the world that "dpl" author of this thread will return and come clean about whats really going on. Anyhow if somebody searches *220D manual transmission* or *220D clutch* this thread oughta be helpful to find in our archives - so wasnt complete waste of time i guess.

[dpl]

Ok guys I'm Back to give you guys a follow-up on the the car. Mr. 300sDog please stop dogging me. I am Very new to this the whole comcept. I bought my 1969 220D in 2005 and paid $1,000. At the time I did not know a dam thing about cars. just wanted a affordable transportation that could get me to school and back. A DIY friend of mine help to fix the clutch in CA where I did live at the time and all was fine. when I move to Las Vegas in 06. I would not go into gear. I had it park for over a year but will start it every day and I make sure that the oil was change etc. etc. December of 07 my friend came to visit me and he fix the clutch and we bought a new break pad. The old maid was up and running again.
March of 2008 it refuse to get in gear again broke down on the street. tow it to a recommanded mechanic from a friend. This mechanic told me that the slave & master clutch were very bad/woun out. I said that is impossible because I had just replace the clutch slave and master cylinder just before I came to Vegas and the car has not been driven very often only 3x a week at very short distance. Well he fixed it for $336.43. He claim that he change both brand new clutches which he bought himself for $198.62. And when he call me to pick up the car he left the lights on and the baratry was dead after I told him to disconect the bartr. I was so piss-off I left and forgot to get my old parts from him. I put a new brt. in the car. after 3 days Car will not go into gear again. took it to Amco. They said the the gear was fine but the fuel tank was leaking. Than I did some research on the web and join the mercedesshop forum. They recomanded G & G ********-Iram & Austin. Well I took my car from AAmco and told them they were full of BS. G & G mechanic told me it needed new clutch He charge me $555 all was well. 2nd time just in june clutch problem again. This time I bought the clutches both slave & master Clynder. He charge me $418.
Well after I got the all the positive answers from all you guys (thanks a million again to everyone that help me) I re asked G & G- Iram the mechanic about the wire harnes BS and bushing that he told me about on monday he said the same BS to me. Today I ready got ugly with him and told him that there was no wire harnes in the transmission.
Well I have my car in my appartment parking place. Yes 300sdog the car made a lot of nois in nutural, you were very right on it. You are not a dummy we all learn some thing new everyday tomorow I will start more research on it and order some parts for the transmission such as the Preasure plate, clutch disk, release bearing, and take Sjefke advice and order a new bushing for the end of the crankshaft and transmission shaft.
Thanks a million
dpl
P.S. This is a very good forum club on benz I'm getting my DIY mechanic Education 101 Now you know the whole story will send pic after the work is done/and how to step by step.

[sjefke]

If you have lots of noise in neutral, what happens if you depress the clutch pedal? More noise? Or less noise?

From what you tell us, it sounds to me like the release bearing ($50 something part). If I understand correctly, you have replaced the clutch (friction) disk, pressure plate, master cylinder and slave cylinder a couple of times already. But what about the release bearing? That's the one thing that wears out too and can cause noises when balls in its ball bearing have a nick. I don't know about the 220D transmissions, but check if there is a guide sleeve installed on it. If it is supposed to be there and is not there or not tightened correctly, it can also cause problems. It was a $20 part on mine that had gotten in the release bearing's ways because it had gotten loose (bolts were missing).

If you take the tranny out, also check the radial and axial play of the input shaft. If the main transmission bearing is worn out, you may get a lot of play as well causing rattling. Personally, I am betting on release bearing (failed on some of my MGs as well as MB before). if tranny is out, make sure to put some grease in pilot bearing/crankshaft bushing. If bushing is not loose, I suggest leaving it in there but make sure there are no burrs anywhere in it or on the transmission shaft.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Bert

[Mike D]

Let me save you some grief. Do NOT put grease on the pilot bearing! You might as well smear it all over the flywheel and pressure plate because that is where it will end up. The centrifical force will sling it and the pressure plate is the perfect "catcher's mitt" for the grease.

You can smear a small, and I mean SMALL, dab of brake lube onto the frontmost portion of the transmission input shaft . You can also put a minute amount between the splines of the input shaft where the clutch rides.

Make sure your input bearing retainer (the cast metal piece that looks like a funnel bolted to the front of the transmission) is smooth and not ridged.

You can clean up most of the scuff marks and slight ridges with emery cloth.