Need advice: Has anyone installed a generic/MB AC system in an older car?

[strelnik]

I have several cars which are in great shape or soon will be. NONE of them have AC because of their age.

The MBs:

1949 170 4 door
1958 180D
1959 220 S
1972 220D

The others:

1953 Citroen 11CV Limousine de Ville
1972 Citroen DS21
1982 Dodge Power Wagon 318 4WD stick

I'm leaving Groucho's 220 4 door Webasto stock because I'm selling it afterwards.

I tried to take a course in auto AC but the schools here don't want to accept a certified mechanic, they want you to take a series of course, like 45 hours, and get an associate's degree. More money for them.

So I'll use correspondence courses, get a state AC cert and install them myself.

The question:

Has anyone installed a generic AC kit or made their own?

The main questions for me:

1. Where to get kits or non-kit components? What's worked for you?

2. R-12 vs R 134, which is better?

3. What tools, gauges, etc are needed? Which make life easier? Which are frills?

After this, I ought to be able to do my own no problemo.

Especially interested in comments IF you have done this, versus just opinions. I need info here from people who have experience and / or suggestions. If you have gone to school for auto AC: was it worth it?

Need to know that too.

Thanks!

[thorsen]

Here are the sources I frequent

http://rayeveritt.com/ - Perfect for hoses, fittings, and misc parts.
http://www.nostalgicairparts.com/ - Receiver/Driers and mount kits. Check out their underdash evap units.
http://www.ackits.com/ - Condensers and Seltec compressors, although lately I have been buying them from eBay in December and paying $50 for new Sandens.

There are plenty more sites out there but I always fall back on these.

[daw_two]

I have two brand new York compressors

and
(there's always an "and" when I post, right? )

I might be in a similiar situation soon.

I'm liking this one:
http://www.nostalgicairparts.com/air-conditioning/big-truck-floor-mount-evaporator-ac-system-453.php
if there is room on the transmission tunnel.

[GGR]

For the Citroen DS you may want to make sure the compressor does not engage too harshly. I think now they are better but in the old days compessors were putting a lot of strain on the camshaft when they engaged, considering it is already driving all the other ancillaries.

[winecountryone]

Modern aftermarket systems all use R134.There are a number of advertisers in places like Hemmings motor news who could design a system for most any vehicle.There are commonly used in kit cars and other custom cars.
The hardest part would probably be fabricating brackets for a specific model.
I don't believe you need special certifications to handle R134,only R12.

[alabbasi]

Check out vintageair, they make aftermarket under dash kits which i'm sure can be adapted to meet your needs.

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by GGR

For the Citroen DS you may want to make sure the compressor does not engage too harshly. I think now they are better but in the old days compessors were putting a lot of strain on the camshaft when they engaged, considering it is already driving all the other ancillaries.

The AC runs off the crank in this case.

[GGR]

Originally Posted by strelnik

The AC runs off the crank in this case.

On the DS? Are you running a stock engine? If yes, how do you plan to run the compressor from the crank? (I'm a big fan of the DS, I have two).

I saw that among the in-dash units they sell some making air, heat and defrost. I did not see any fittings for coolant hoses. How do they generate heat? Is it electrical? If yes, is it reliable, durable, and effective? If yes I would be interested in replacing the heater unit in my W111 Coupe and use the original levers and ducts, to keep the look of the dash sans the stock evaporator under it.

[Mark DiSilvestro]

Originally Posted by strelnik

I have several cars which are in great shape or soon will be. NONE of them have AC because of their age.

The MBs:

1949 170 4 door
1958 180D
1959 220 S
1972 220D

The others:

1953 Citroen 11CV Limousine de Ville
1972 Citroen DS21
1982 Dodge Power Wagon 318 4WD stick

I'm leaving Groucho's 220 4 door Webasto stock because I'm selling it afterwards.

I tried to take a course in auto AC but the schools here don't want to accept a certified mechanic, they want you to take a series of course, like 45 hours, and get an associate's degree. More money for them.

So I'll use correspondence courses, get a state AC cert and install them myself.

The question:

Has anyone installed a generic AC kit or made their own?

The main questions for me:

1. Where to get kits or non-kit components? What's worked for you?

2. R-12 vs R 134, which is better?

3. What tools, gauges, etc are needed? Which make life easier? Which are frills?

After this, I ought to be able to do my own no problemo.

Especially interested in comments IF you have done this, versus just opinions. I need info here from people who have experience and / or suggestions. If you have gone to school for auto AC: was it worth it?

Need to know that too.

Thanks!

The DS, 220D and Powerwagon were all availible with AC, so I'd look into whatever original hardware may be availible in salvage yards, club-sources, online or elsewhere.
Most 220Ds came with a Behr semi-integated AC unit mounted in the center-console.
For all your other candidates, you'll need to custom fabricate something.

Earliest common Mercedes AC were the Kuhlmeister hang on units on the Fintails.
Many years ago, I adapted a salvage-yard Fintail Kuhlmeister to my '61 Ponton 180b.
Modifications included, rotating the Kuhlmeister blower 180 degrees, as the Ponton lower dash had no cavity behind the glovebox to accomodate the blower motor. To drive the AC belt, I adapted a Honda waterpump pulley to the engine balancer, as there was no room for the bulky Fintail AC pulley. Also, my Ponton's limited engine-space and passenger-side cooling system plumbing, prevented using the Fintail's York compressor & brackets, so I made up custom brackets to mount a Sankyo (Sanden) compressor on the distributor-side of my engine.
Compressor and condenser were salvaged from two different '70s Mazdas. My cobbled-up Kuhlmeister looked good and cooled well enough using R12, but took alot of engine power. Prolonged AC operation also made my car run hot.
If I had to do it over today, one big change I'd make with the Sanden compressor, would be to fit a much smaller drive pulley to the engine, This would reduce power usage and load on the cooling-system.

Unfortunately, the old Kuhlmeisters have now become quite pricey on eBay, but you may still luck onto one in a salvage-yard somewhere, or pick up one with a cheap, rusty Fintail parts-car.
But any of those old AC systems may not work that well with R134.
Adapting one of the Vintage-Air kits may be your best chooce for most of your candidates.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by GGR

On the DS? Are you running a stock engine? If yes, how do you plan to run the compressor from the crank? (I'm a big fan of the DS, I have two).

I saw that among the in-dash units they sell some making air, heat and defrost. I did not see any fittings for coolant hoses. How do they generate heat? Is it electrical? If yes, is it reliable, durable, and effective? If yes I would be interested in replacing the heater unit in my W111 Coupe and use the original levers and ducts, to keep the look of the dash sans the stock evaporator under it.

Where do you live? We should talk

[GGR]

Originally Posted by strelnik

Where do you live? We should talk

I live in Washington DC, but my two DS are still in France.

[pchbreeze]

It's no longer legal to install R12 systems (EPA). The gas is very expensive anyways.

The type of gas you install doesn't matter if you're putting in a completely new system but to answer your question, 134a is your only option. There's nothing else for new systems.

You will not want to do this yourself. It's one of those things that, if you screw up installation, it'll be a very expensive fix...it could easily be the same price as the installation you tried to avoid by doing it yourself.

I highly recommend you take it to a shop that does them regularly. I'm in the HVAC/R business and from your questions alone I can tell you don't have the familiarity to do it yourself. You won't even have the equipment, such as a vacuum pump or gauges, scale, ect.

[pchbreeze]

btw, automotive a/c and residential a/c's are like the mcdonalds of the hvac/r industry. just because someones been doing it for years, doesn't make them an expert. if anything, the opposite is more likely.

[thorsen]

Originally Posted by pchbreeze

It's no longer legal to install R12 systems (EPA). The gas is very expensive anyways.

I find that erroneous and comical at the same time. In the last 12 months I have bought 45 pounds of R-12 and it cost less than R-134.

[pchbreeze]

Comical? I find it comical you can actually buy r12 considering that it's not even legal for public purchase. If you were in the HVAC/R business, you'd know that. Since you aren't, you're buying some drop-in replacement for r12 and mocking a person who deals with refrigerants for a living.

That's your err. Why don't you take a picture of your "r12" that's supposed to be cheaper than R134a and post it here, and prove hundreds of thousands of Americans in the HVAC/R world wrong.