repaint: over old paint or bare metal ? single stage or base/clear ?

[GGR]

Hi all,

this is for my W111 Coupe. It is a daily driver and is non metallic maroon. It had an older single stage respray 10 to 15 years ago. Paint is faded but is holding well. It is still very nice when I buff it but it does not stay shiny very long. I want to repaint the car because I have a few rust spots and dings I need to repair. I don't want a show quality finish as I would like the paint work to blend with the nice patina of the interior. I would like the car to look like a nice 3 to 5 years old used car when I'm done, not like a car coming out of the factory with a used interior. In short, I would like the paint to have some "patina" as well.

I've read and asked around and some say I need to go back to bare metal to do a quality job, some say I can respray over the old paint if it's holding welll. It will save some work and potentially some problems due to flash rust. They say nothing holds better than original factory paint so no need to remove it. Just use a good sealer first to avoid chemical reactions. I'm tempted to go that way over the bare metal option.

I also read that single stage paint looks more like the original finish and is easier to touch up in case I get some dings. But the paint is a bit more difficult to buff and maintain over time. Base coat / clear coat has a better shine and is easier to maintain. I'm tempted to go single stage as it sounds to me the look will be closer to original and it may be easier to obtain some patina than wiith bc/cc.

Thanks all in advance for advice and for sharing experience!

[tram]

Any paint you lay down will only be as good as the paint or "surprises" underneath. I recommend getting the car soda blasted. Soda blasting won't harm rubber or glass, and leaves a slight coating behind that helps prevent flash rust. Wash the car down before painting, of course. Ask your soda blast person what they recommend.

Then, follow up with a coat of 'Slick Sand' or similar high build polyester primer/ sealer/ filler. Sand the surface roughness down a bit, spray your guide coat, and sand/ refill as necessary.

Follow up with 3-4 coats of single stage. I have an HVLP turbine setup, and I love it. Let it dry, then color sand with 1500, 2000, then 3000, sanding done wet (with water). Then buff to a shine with heavy cut, medium cut, swirl remover, then glaze.

I know you say you don't want a "showroom" paint job, but unless you do it this way, you may as well just take it to Maaco and let the goons do it.

[t walgamuth]

When I am doing a driver quality repaint I always want to retain the old paint wherever possible. I expect people going for concours quality want bare metal to start with.

[sjefke]

From my personal experience, a lot depends on the painter as well. Back to metal is great, if possible, but I have one car where the "professional" painter waited too long and moisture and rust got apparently on the bare metal before they got to painting it. Of course, you only find out years later... I would sand it down to bare metal if I suspected heavy bondo and or rust that needed to be repaired. On any part that looks straight and clean, I would keep the layers intact.

The ultimate for restoration is stripping the entire car and dipping it in acid or complete sandblast. Too much for our daily drivers.

Bert

[meltedpanda]

I have done both , bare metal needs to be BARE as stated, good primer and then paint , Old paint needs to be preped so new can adhear, that is the biggest source of failure for painting over what is there.
Sand, remove contaminats, use correct strippers , ect . Both methods when the prep work is done correctly will yield good results/ Notice GOOD results, not concours results...

[GGR]

Thanks. This is useful info. I will show the car to some professionals around and see what they say.

[uprightfan]

GGR:

I have done several bare metal restorations. My primary reason for going to that extreme is to repair unknown damage and have 100% piece of mind for a perfect job. But, if you are comfortable of the underlying condition of your car (and you know it is not all Bondo), then you can get stunning results painting over the old paint, as long as it is properly prepped and sealed with a good primer.

Taking it down to bare metal will make it a much more expensive job. You also have to decide how far back you want to go with the paint removal, like do you you really want to do it in all door jambs and tricky areas?

Personally, I would paint on top of old paint on a "trusted" car, and spend the money and energy saved by doing a great job painting in places that most would not (like in gas cap areas).

If you the paint yourself, an HLVP turbine is a must. It is will do a MUCH better job than an air compressor and gun, and saves paint, and produces a lot less overspray. In tight areas like gas filler areas, it does a much better job than typical compressor based systems.

Single stage vs base/clear: I love single stage. It does look old school and will make your vintage car look truly vintage. But, it does not have the always wet look of clear coat. I do not like the look of clear on vintage cars. It looks fake. If you like the authentic look, go with a great single stage. I use Glasurit all the time, works perfectly. I find it easy to apply, and also easy to wet sand so you get a perfectly flat finish. But, with single stage, you will need to polish more often to keep it really really shiny, as this is the primary advantage of the base/clear systems.

[wbain5280]

Your car will look stunning with base coat, clear coat. You need to remove all the trim as well.

[uprightfan]

I do agree that a base/clear is a good way to go, as it is more durable and it is easier to find painters to do this method as it is now the standard. The modern paints are really good. My only complaint is "the look" of being always wet, while the single stage paints look more like a vintage car.

And as Warren said, remove all trim. There is nothing worse than looking at a door latch (or even a screw holding on the door striker) that has paint all over it. I always mumble a mantra of "How did the factory do it" and then follow that. Remove all trim, door strikers, etc.. Can you imagine going to all the work of a major paint job, and then painting over a door striker? It really is an indicator that the rest of the job may be not as good as it looks, if someone can't spend 20 minutes to remove these strikers and do a perfect job.

Some of the trim is VERY tricky to get off around the windows (for example), so you may have to actually leave it on if you are on a budget and cannot afford to replace damaged trim. A good painter can tape a car very well so you cannot see any issue regarding taped window trim. But, lower your painters workload by taking off as much as possible yourself, and really going over the car of items that you want them to take special care when getting in close and painting around tough places (door jams and fuel filling areas).

Obviously, all bumpers have to come off.

I would also find a painter that may allow you to see the car at various stages, so you can take pictures. This is a Trojan horse tactic, so you can actually give the painter feedback like "I see it is still a little rough in the fuel filler area, I am sure you are going to get to that", and "I noticed you painted over a rubber buffer for the hood. Perhaps you can remove that and clean it up with thinner, as I do not want to see things painted over". Of course, charm and a case of beer will help get these little things done.

And lastly, do not put the trim back on the next day. You will need to wait a week or so for the paint to get really hard. If you take trim off, and then put it back on with the proper amount of torque, on really fresh paint, you will be amazed at how the trim can sink into the paint a little bit. Just be patient and let the paint cure for a week.

Good luck with this. I have a 280SE I also want to painter at some point (probably 2 years away), so I too am looking for a good painter in the area. So GGR, if you find one, let us all know!

[GGR]

Yes, I will take all the trim out, including front and rear glass as i want to replace them with tinted ones. I will also take all the interior out including ceiling as I need to repair a sunroof leak. I will then treat all interior panels the way I did the underside, with Por-15.

The only trim I may leave are on the gutters, on each side of the roof around the windows, and may be also the chrome on the front pilars on each side of the windshield. I will see how it goes once the glass is out. The reason is that they may get damaged in the process, so it's a compromise.

One more question: this is a driver, so it gets exposed to road chips etc. Apart from the shine, which is more resistant to road chips? single stage or bc/cc?

[tram]

There is such a thing as "over- restoring" a vehicle, and doing a base/ clear in place of an original single stage is, in my opinion, one of the worst offenses. If you do four good coats of single- stage, you'll have enough paint to color- sand- "sculpt out" all the orange peel. Then, buffing with the 3M three or four (depending on color) stages of compound will give it a really nice mirror shine without being obnoxious about it. My personal joke is that I'm a lousy painter, but great with sandpaper, water, and a buffer.

People who look at the work my partner and I turn out of here will often ask if it's "base/ clear", but it's not (unless it's a metallic, of course).

As far as being resistant to chips, you can add a "flex additive" to your paint for rock chip in vulnerable areas. Single- stage is a lot easier to touch up and blend.

[wbain5280]

Tyson's MB body shop used PPG paint. It's water based due to new EPA rules for VOC's. The club had a tour last year around this time.

Where are you going to get it painted? Paint jobs can be $4,000 and up.

[GGR]

Flex additive is a good info. thanks. That's the thing: I don't want to over restore the car because there is a point where work and expenses go exponential for any little added value/improvement. What I'm looking for is the best compromise between amount of work, expenses, quality and durability. That car is not original (Euro 5.0L M117) and is a driver. So it will never have the value of a concours vehicle, and I want to keep it a driver. If I overdo it, I know I won't enjoy driving it due to the potential damage this may cause to it. The other thing is I want it to be homogenous. An over the top paint on a nicely worn interior is not right. So I'm looking for that fine balance among all these elements. In the end I think I'm going to paint over the old paint apart from the repair areas, and go single stage.

Originally Posted by wbain5280

Tyson's MB body shop used PPG paint. It's water based due to new EPA rules for VOC's. The club had a tour last year around this time.

Where are you going to get it painted? Paint jobs can be $4,000 and up.

I don't know yet. Dimitri will do the metal work. Then I need to find a place where they do a good job and understand what I'm after, for a reasonable price. I wouldn't mind working on the car like sanding etc. as long as it is under supervision as this will be new to me. There is a young guy in Potomac who strated an older MB repair and maintenance business. He also does some painting for himself or on cars he is reselling. I think he would do a reasonable job. The problem is that he doesn't have a proper boot and he sometimes ends up with dust particules on the fresh paint and getting them out by buffing is quite some work. He painted a W114 single stage as his personal project and it looks good though. I shall see.

[alabbasi]

There you go Gael, I trust that you have all the information that you need to make the right decision

On a serious note, you may want to decide what your budget will look like before determining the scope of the work. You can have a very nice job done without going to bare metal, but if you decide to do that, you need to expect the scope to increase considerably.

Don't worry too much about the brand of paint, every company has a high end and a low end line. For the most part this has more to do with color matching then it does with the actual quality of paint and as you're painting a whole car, color matching is not an issue.

If you're going to paint it yourself, try to use an activated primer instead of a lacquer primer as lacquer primers are prone to shrinking. If you're going to find a shop to do the work for you, then just talk to the owners and spend a few days going back and forth in checking their shop out so that you get an idea of the end to end process that they use to paint a car, along with the finished product. DONT MAKE A PAINTER SWITCH BRANDS! If you are more partial to PPG, then find a shop that paints PPG or let the guy paint what he's most familiar with.

I really want to try a HVLP turbine setup, i've heard all kinds of good things about them. It may be the way to go if you don't own a compressor and are limited in space.