This has just got to be valve stem seal week. I just purchased a set for a 130 gas engine and two sets for our friends the 616 diesel engines off ebay tonite.
I have a spare 130 block that ran like glass when I pulled it out of the car it was in. It needed valve seals though. Between all this talk on our site and the price on those seals it activated my buying mode.
The two 616 sets have no home to go to at this point but they were basically free and a friend sometime may need some. Or I will rob one kit for the extra cylinder and do a 617 with them. Two kits where mercedes and one erihig or some simular aftermarket name. Sounds to me like my self justification game again.
Funny I was going to send that 130 engine to the junkyard. I only wanted the automatic transmission. I pulled the valve cover pan to get a lift point. Saw the cam towers, cam and rockers were virtually brand new so I changed my mind. I am at a loss to understand why I keep some of this stuff. I just cannot seem to force myself to send it to a junkyard when it is really good. Yet locally there is no demand. Where is the logic here?
I also tell myself they are good spare engines for what I own. I have a rebuilt flathead ford engine and transmission just inside the garage door for example. I do not even own a flathead car. I just no longer know at all.
My engines are so terrified of me working on them they never usually act up at all. Mind develop a serious problem. I understand their fear is rational. It is just the way I approach mechanical things.

The liquid nitrogen might cause the guide to shatter when you drove it. On the otherhand it might just about fall in if that cold. In my opinion to have a good chance at all with the head on it might have to be the nitrogen.
I know you want to leave the head on to install the new guide if the old one was loose.
Just running the engine up to temperature would probably get the head warm enough. Then using the halogen lights to sustain the temperature might work just using the dash gauge with someone to watch the head temp. You would have to move pretty fast though when you shut the engine down. Since you have the valve stem to contend with an outside driver would have to be fabricated for the new guide as well. Pre measuring of the stem and guide for proper clearance at room temperature would have to proceed this. Interesting concept installing a guide with the head on and valve in. Worse senario if the valve did not seat properly after the installation is removal of the head I guess. For all I know some working mechanics might have mastered this.
You would want to put quite a pressure in that cylinder to hold the valve up and no misteaks. Not much to really loose though come to think of it. As you said it is somewhat the cart ahead of the horse at this point. I just thought it worth expanding and examining myself out of curiosity.
I guess as a preliminary step you might pull the valve spring and check your new guide over the valve stem for fit. Put the spring and rocker back on if fit was good run the engine up to temperature and try it. I really hope this is an academic kind of discussion.
You will also have to find the interference fit between the new guide and hole for it. That may mean removal of the old guide and measuring plus reinstalling the old guide to run and warm up the engine. Rather than puting the valve spring back you might use a drill stop screwed onto the guide to prevent the valve from falling in and warm the engine on five cylinders just leaving that spark plug out. I suspect an oversize guide would be required as well. The spark plug out would speed up the application of air when the engine was shut down as you could quickly recouple the air feed with the adapter left in. I would also want that piston at top dead centre just in case. Another better option might be to stuff small rope in the cylinder to support the valve. Stuff quite a bit in the spark plug hole. Raise the piston. With the drill bit depth thing still on the stem make sure the rope is keeping the valve up and if so take the stop off the stem. All the above is just speculation about how a guide could be changed out with the head still on. The ability to pull it off is going to be an individual thing. I personally would not recomend it to anyone myself. That does not mean it cannot be done. It could theoretically work but you would have to pay attention to all the details. Much would also depend on your abilities. I can hardly believe I just typed this whole note.

I advise removing the head to change a guide. The chances of the new guide locating the valve concentric with its' former location are just about zip. That means no compression in that cylinder and the head will need to come off to grind and reposition the valve seat. Plus it's not a given that a guide loose enough to slide up and down a few mm will be loose enough to remove. Changing seals without removing the head is a very do-able task. Attempting to change a guide is a waste of time.

Thanks barry for the dialouge... I too like the forte in the relm of the unknown. I dont believe the "runnung engine" to heat head option would be feasable in the scenario that you described. A better option may be a pump hooked up to the cooling system and hot water ran in the loop. Again just some idle thought.

Chas.... You seem to be right on track with the grinding etc. Plus all that effort to fix a guide and who is to say that another fails and I am back in the same spot. Dont worry, I will yank the head if I find any loose guides.

These are some of my concerns well expressed. The other was If some one actually pulled it off and someone else said there is no way it could be attempted what then? I myself am not aware of anyone trying this before. Mind failing or succeding.
Also how much damage would result if any from the attempt except the loss of some time? I also thought at this point the whole issue was kind of academic. He is taking a lot of oil into that cylinder from his description. If it is a guide I would think it is pretty loose.
The chance of the valve not hitting the seat enough to seal after installation of the guide was one I really could not calculate. The worse senario was off with the head then. I truthfully would have removed the head initially as well if I did find a loose guide, It probably looks very challenging the first time. It is what I would automatically do but on the otherhand since I have done it enough times years ago it is familiar ground to me and I expect you. This approach would just not have entered my mind.
I also looked at his compression numbers as well. They did not really indicate a full valve job was imperative. I take it for granted unless I know a head was done in the last ten thousand or so or there is no amount of wear in the guides. It is going to get everything required when off the engine.
Valve work on the head sent out was a pretty reasonable proposition years ago compared to the prices that I see now. On the otherhand it does give peace of mind. If by any chance I live long enough to install another set of guides I will use your approach with my hydralic press. I think I remember sodium filled exaust valves at 8-10.00 per valve the last time I really did some of these engines in canada. We generally paid more for parts than you did as well. Seems they have increased in price even a little more since then.

i seem to remember they cost more than that 33 years ago when i was buying them for my 62 190c.

tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I looked at a dozen places that sell parts for our 130. engine (on the net) and quite a few sold exhaust valves and had them listed for under $9 but they were "out of stock". I ended up buying an exhaust valve for $25 from ******** AZ because they had it, and their prices on everything else were about the lowest I'd seen.

My valve guides are sitting since Monday afternoon in the post office, which is so close I can throw a rock and hit it from my front yard, yet I haven't been able to get there before 5 pm when it closes!

Tomorrow, I plan to heat my head in a little makeshift hot air oven. The grocery store has dry ice at $1 a pound so that's where the guide will lose its heat. I will probably press it in with an old screw press I have. I almost have finished a mandrel made from a set screw collar and the old burned exhaust valve from the next cylinder over. I'm kind of curious what will happen when/if I expose the sodium while I finish giving that valve its last grind (got to clear that cam tower). If its elemental sodium I'd expect it to react with the atmospheric oxygen. The question is how violent of a reaction?
Will it gently smoke? Flare? Take off like a rocket? Maybe it will just change color. Darned if I know. Tomorrow.... :fork_off:

Basil

Just to throw my .02 in here,

Sounds like you have a good plan, and all I know about the valves is what is printed in the owners manual for my '59 220SE. It says that a possible explosion will result if valves are melted for scrap, or ground too far.

If it's any consolation, I paid $30.00, 14 years ago, for the last sodium filled MB exhaust valve, so $25.00 is a pretty good price.

Good luck, I'm sure it will run like a champ.

Since the head is off, why are you working around a cam tower. Take it off.
Don't cut an exhaust valve open while it's in the engine.
On the other hand, call the folks from The Red Green Show before you start. You could make some money and get on TV.

My manual says to avoid removing the cam towers if possible, but is a little vague on the rational.

It would fulfill a lifelong dream to be on the Red Green Show, or would if it had started many years earlier. To protect myself from the explosion, I'll duct tape a phone directory to my chest, etc etc...

When I think back to all the many explosions that have occurred in my immediate vicinity, since I have never been harmed I might rationalize that explosions are relatively harmless, merely disorientating. On the other hand, the next one could be the bad one. I think I'll avoid grinding the stem until I get my contract signed.

I think the sodium is in the stem and not the flat part. I know it's supposed to help dissipate heat, but whether it's just a better thermal conductor or develops tiny convection currents, I dont know. It is a pretty fat stem...

The thing is, is that it's smooth, difficult to burr, and the perfect size for the mandrel!

Basil

Mr Basil, my understanding is also that it is in the stem. I was informed the sodium worked by moving the heat by sliding up and down in the stem with the valve motion.
Could just as easily be an old wifes tale as well. I think the chemical action is much greater with water. Again I am not really positive of that either.

You guys are correct. The sodium is in the stem. It melts at temperature and moves heat away from the head/face of the valve and up the stem.
The factory recommends cutting the valve stem in two and disposing in a bucket of water. I've never done, but it might be a show.

I installed my valve guide today. I used the "1rst repair" size. Heated the head in a hot air oven in two turkey oven bags ( to keep out dirt in the swirling wind) and froze the guide and mandrel in dry ice. I tapped it in with a drift to the mandrel without problems or deformities.

If I was replacing seals and discovered a loose valve guide, now, after removing the head and replacing a valve and seals and that guide, I think I would try to replace it without removing the head. I'd just run the engine up to temp and take off the valve cover, pop the rocker arm, springs,etc and gently drop the valve in the cylinder, after hitting the keeper groove with a stone to take off the burr, and pop in the guide, cold like today, and then try to fish the valve out with a rod shaped magnet on a string, manipulating it into the guide. Failing that I could take off the head, which significantly raises the cost, time, and possibility of finding more stuff to fix. It would be worth it to spend some time with the magnet. Of course, that's now, after I am quite familiar with the components and operations...and I had an extra valve, no good for anything else, that was easy to adapt to be an installation mandrel.

It looks like I won't be on the Red Green Show afterall. I cut into the old sodium filled valve today. I treated it like cutting into a incendiary pipe bomb with many precautions. My initial cut exposed sodium with no apparent reaction. The second cut heated it and it turned into bubbly frothy molten sodium mess. I worried about distorting the stem and tossed some water on it; the loose sodium was carried away with the water and burst into quiet balls of flame, soon extinguished. The half I wasn't using for a mandrel, I sat upright and put some water in. This produced a vigorous foaming action which I lit on fire to demonstrate that it was indeed hydrogen. The dry half, which I used for a mandrel, slowly developed a white powder, without producing discernable heat, unlike the much faster reaction with water,which got quite hot even before I lit the foam.

Blue... I am hoping you'll have an easy fix!

Basil

Wow- thanks for the mr. Wizzard information on fun with sodium. Kinda reminds me of "playing" with carbide and water... or a magnesium vw engine case in a bond fire.

I am hoping for an easy fix also.... I went to start her up lastnight to see how much oil had entered into the #1 while she sat and .... I am now without spark.

I wonder if the extra load on the coil from the fouled plug caused it to fail.

I tested the coil and got 3.8 ohm across the lt side and 90k (or 9k not sure) ohm across the ht side. Any ideas??

Sure, to test the coil disconnect the point side of it. Of course making sure the 12v side has 12v as well. Take a wire from ground and brush contact the negative terminal of the coil while holding the coil to distributor wire say about 3/16 from your block. You should get a nice spark if coil is good. Kind of an absolute go no go test. Basically you are just duplicating the points in the distributor and your electronic switching module if you have one. I do not think you have one though. I like simple tests myself. Chances are high it is not the coil but sometimes they do go bad.