Going with keeping the stock head unit and adding some Focal speakers up front w/ a large Orion amp which according to the installer, will be able to run both the speakers upfront and some subs in the back. Don't know what to do about adding subs in the back. Dealer is wanting to build an enclosure for 4 subs which will take up the front portion of the trunk. Not sure if I want to lose that space and most importantly lose the benefit of the fold down seats. Not looking for any huge base response, just want a tight an accurate sound. Any suggestions?

If you are not looking for huge booming bass, but tight, accurate bass, consider this option:

The factory speakers are about 8" in the rear deck. Put a set of free air subs (I happened to find the Sony Xplod 10" work great) mounted from the bottom on a TIGHT FITTING mouting board (of 1/2" MDF) firing through the stock holes (a 10" sub has roughly a 8" cone)
The mount board must be securely fastened to the rear deck from the bottom.
The trunk of the CLK is very well sealed and the seats are solid so there is very little lost sound to resonance cancellations.
There are several small holes that should be sealed (around the trunk hinge mounts, etc) but do not seal the vent holes at the very back edge (by the glass).

This way you don't lose trunk space, and it is a very clean install.
If you get the right free air driver, you (and everyone else, trust me) will be amazed with the bass.
Also, if the dealer intends to fire subs against the back of the rear seats, I suggest you tap your knuckles on the rear side of those seats. You will find they are very solid. Difficult to pass sound through, and if the subs face them, that will alter the bass (perhaps in a negative fashion)

By the way, how do you like your Yamaha ? What year is it?


[This message has been edited by trent (edited 10-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by trent (edited 10-17-2000).]

i would REALLY like to know how your installer is going to do what you say he is. i have a CLK also and i have been trying to solve problems with my stereo for awhile. i must say that using an ORION amp with a factory deck is what i would expect a shop to suggest. that amp (i assume not the entry level) will NEVER see its potential because of the signal limitations of the factory unit and speakers (the triangle speaker is made by NOKIA), especially "trying" to get a low level signal to the ORION. are they going to wire directly from the pre-amp board in the deck for the low level signal? do they suggest taking the high level signal from the factory amp, use a line level converter to run the RCAs off of , and connect to the amp? are they aware of the "load" of the speakers and how and where they are wired? keep in mind that there are 4 channels that drive 8 speakers. the factory speakers have VERY odd ohm ratings. i am in the process now of trying to figure out the easiset way to improve the sound in my CLK and believe me, it is NOT easy and very few "experts" have experience with this problem. if you are going to spend big bucks on an ORION, spend more big bucks to do it right or you will be very upset.
i like the idea of free air subs. i have used them in the past and they sound great. the problem is finding them.
i know this is alot of information/opinion, but, really, i would pay to know how this installer is going to do this. if you have more concerns/questions, e-mail me.

trent, the sonys work well in free air?? do you have any vibration problems comming from the deck? is this on a CLK?? i have a civic with 2 12s facing directly into the seats and it hits very hard. a friend with the same car faced them to the rear with no other mods with the seats up and it hits harder! i can put the seats down and i cant notice the difference. thanks for the info..

one more wr400f, if they are going to replace all of the speakers, they WILL need to replace the wiring. if you are going to go through all of that expense (and it will be), find a way to use a high end aftermarket deck, even if you have to bypass the factory unit. the reason that i want to use the factory HU is the phone. please let me know the details as they come. thanks

Don't have all the details on the install yet but will keep you guys posted. Thanks for the free air suggestion...I'll see what the installer thinks. By the way, I've had this installer do all the work on my previous cars (BMWs) and he is very good. Says he has done this upgrade before on several Mercedes models and the sound was incredible. Don't know the details on all the wiring yet but am pretty sure it's going to be complex. I do remember him saying something about a line level converter and RCA's and seemed very confident that the sound quality would only be slightly less using the stock head unit with the converter. Focal speakers would go in the front and the high end Orion amp would run both the speakers and the rear subs. He said something about creating some custom porting for the sub enclosure in the trunk. Quoted $2K for everything including labor....yikes!!!
I'm far from being an expert on this so I'll try to get some more detailed info and see what you guys think.

Trent, the WR is a '98 model that has a Baja Designs street legal kit. Love seeing the reaction of people as I come blasting down the road. Great way to get you to the track/trail without having to load up the bike.

For Blokdok, yes this is one a CLK ('99 coupe)

No problems with vibrations (as I said, a very solid mounting plate for the subs)
Though the Sony Xplod's do not come with a free air spec (they are rated for small sealed) and in most computer programs it will give you some crazy numbers if you input free air type parameters, the proof is in the end result.
I run 240 watts per driver (2 10") with the Sony XESZ50 reference system as source provider, and the XES M50 midbass drivers in the front doors (240 watts each)
This system is very demanding, and the subs do it justice.
If you would have told me that before I tried it, it would have laughed.
Not laughing now.
The reason I did it was to reduce install complexity, to be able to keep my trunk space and spare tire, and to have a "stealth install"
I am extremely fussy when it comes to cars and stereos (Sound Quality is very important) as well as a vehicle that is not all chopped up when you are done.
This type of subwoofer setup is perfect for those goals.
Also, I agree that the line level converter is a last resort, only to be used if there is no other choice at all. They really degrade the sound quality, and can introduce noise.

[This message has been edited by trent (edited 10-19-2000).]

trent, it is good to hear that you can use "non-free air speced" speakers in free air. i totally agree with your logic (space saving, ease of installation, ect.)i used free air 12s (pyles) in the rear deck of a '79 trans am. the package tray was cut out , .75" MDF was placed in there, and they sounded great. did you do the install on your CLK? i assume that you rewired all of the speakers. the factory wiring diagram shows "speaker division points", which i have no idea where they are. this is important if you are going to use the factory wiring because of the way they wired them (parallel, series, combo..). i have measured the resistance in the trunk (speaker outputs from the factory amp) and have come up with some very strange readings. this makes sense when you discover that the fact speakers have very odd ohm ratings. my point is that if you are going to upgrade the speakers, they will need to be rewired. has that been your experience? without running 4 channels off the OEM HU, the fader will not work for sure, as you know. it may not be possible to get fader function from the OEM deck with an aftermarket amp at all. i dont know. having the battery in the trunk does make things alot easier.

questions:

what did you put in the triangles? how are they wired?
does your car have factory phone and or steering wheel controls? if so, did you have a problem with the phone??
do you know where the "speaker division points" are located??

thanks for sharing your experience. when (if) i get my new CLK, i am going to try to find a way to use an after market amp, use custom plugs, consider free air vs an 8" sealed (very small enclosure), and keep OEM HU. the amp will be the "entry level" MTX 4 channel. the trick will be good, cheap components that far out perform the OEM system without splicing into OEM wiring. ill keep you posted if you are interested..

A friend (a VERY talented and experienced installer)and myself did the install. These Benzes are built extremely well, and have some very good engineering, something your realize when taking them apart and putting together.

I use 1" soft domes in the factory tweeter "triangles", with a slight change in mounting angle.
They run off of their own amp (each speaker does, as this is the design of the XES system)
I have removed the factory HU, and do not have any wheel controls. IF I did have the wheel controls, I may have modified them to run the aftermarket controls.
There are "speaker division points" in the doors, which splits the signal to mids, tweeters and rear door locations.
I used new wire for everything. Too much power for stock wiring to handle. Also, factory wiring probably does not have a great spec (non OFC etc)
Your odd impedance readings are likely due to that fact your are measuring several speakers through passive crossover networks.

I would not recommend going with cheap aftermarket components (that goes double for the install). Do the car justice (it is a Mercedes afterall) and go for quality. In the long run, you will be glad you did.

These can be a great sounding car if done properly. Good luck.



[This message has been edited by trent (edited 10-20-2000).]

Got the car back this weekend. Went with the free air suggestion and installed two 10" free air Orion subs in the back firing through the stock 8" opennings. Subs and front Focal speakers are being powered by an Orion amp (65 watts to the Focals and 130 watts to the subs)with the subs at 2 ohms. Installer went with the converter and kept the stock head unit. Mids in the rear of front door remained stock.
Biggest change is the volume especially the bass response. System is VERY loud but I find myself turning down the volume after a short while...it seems to be too bright and the bass seems too much at times; however, if I do turn down the bass, the mid bass disappears dramatically. If I turn the treble down, seems that the vocals drop off.
According to the installer, the Focals take about a week to break in and I should notice an improvement in the vocals and a little in the mid bass. One suggestion he did have is to put in an EQ and tweak the sound somewhat. I have a feeling however that the short falls are mainly due to the converter.
All in all the system sounds great and is much better than stock. I did turn the fader a little towards the stock rear mids in the front door and it did help to take out some of the brightness.

One strange thing, I noticed that the bass response is much greater if you crack the windows of the car....not sure why.
Also, am noticing some vibration at particular bass notes but not much.

One final thing. The automatic volume control is very apparent now. Installer says there is no way to disable it.

wr400f, here is what i think they did (confirm if you could). i have thought of trying this myself. the line level converters are connected to the OEM speaker outputs from the OEM amp. the signal output from the OEM HU is low level (i measured it to confirm my suspicion). this is the only way to "step down" a signal (line level converters step down the voltage). to use the output from the deck would require a "line driver" to step up the voltage for use with an aftermarket amp. doing it the way i think they did negates the need to run RCAs from the HU (which would require the plugs from the deck to be wired directly to the preamp board in the deck)to the trunk, which obviously is alot less work.

this is an interesting question/comment. you can fade the rear/front doors speakers only, not the woofers/front. the brightness and midbass loss that you described tells me that they DID NOT rewire the speakers. you are using Focals for the front door and OEM triangle and rear door? 2 channels are driving all of the front speakers. what load does the amp see (not including the woofers, you know that)? it, i am sure, would surprise you and your installer. are the focals full range (coax/triax)? try disconnecting the rear door speaker. what i would have explored is what additional expense would it have been to use a 2 way speaker system for the front door (mid bass/mid range) and tweeter for the triangle (passive X-over) and ignore the rear door speaker (not much good to the driver and passenger).rewiring would be necessary.

i think an EQ is a good idea, one that accepts 4 channels. you could fade the woofers from that.

break in period for speakers?? really....your ears might, but that doesnt make any sense to me.

trent, what do you think?? the odd speaker resistance is not because of a passive X-over somewhere in the car (to my knowledge, with lots of research). each speaker's rating is odd so that the amp will see an acceptable load, through creative wiring, while driving 8 speakers from 4 channels. i dont know how they are wired (parallel/series/combo), but i do know that disconnecting one speaker (like a rear) will change the load and the front speakers will not sound the same, which is to be expected. how long did it take you to rewire the car?? the "division points" will tell the truth (parallel, ect..) how many wires enter the door? "cheap" is obviously relative. to me, to use a high spec amp and retain the OEM HU is wasteful; the weakest link is the HU and the performance will be limited by the "weakest link". an entry level amp from a reputable company has, actually, quite impressive specs, and even those will exceed the capacity of an OEM deck. my point is that if the goal is to greatly improve on the OEM sound, using the OEM HU, it can be done relatively inexpensively. this is an issue for me because the car is leased (i would never plan on keeping a car for a long time, better ones come out) and i wouldnt go through the expense only to turn it in. this is an interesting challenge, that is, how much better can it sound with minimal work and expense? i plan on surprising alot of doubters. any additional details/comments about your system that you share is very appreciated...

My experience has been the less complicated you make it, the better it will be.
There are many ways to get better than OEM sound from these cars. I just would not go through all the upconverting/downconverting, using part stock / part aftermarket etc.
You are inviting trouble (noise, impedance mismatch etc.) with every extra piece you add.
Re-wiring and installing of new gear should not be done in such a way as to damage to car, lease especially. Even if you own the car, if you ever sell it, most likely the buyers will not appreciate a hacked up car. This is obviously up to the owner. If he wants to chop, let him chop.
In a CLK, intalling aftermarket gear is relatively easy, and needs to cause no damage.
Just my 2c's.

trent, now i am really curious. i totally agree with your chop comments, lease or not. after all, this is a benz. my biggest problem is how the factory wiring is done. this, to me, is not simple at all. of course, if the car was rewired, this is not an issue. by using custom plugs in the trunk, no splicing of OEM wiring would be necessary. also, keeping the OEM HU would also negate the need to run RCAs to the trunk (less work and chance for damage). if there is a factory phone, it would be difficult to use an aftermarket HU because "some" of the phone functions through the OEM deck. so, if one decides to use the OEM HU, the options are line converters, line drivers ($$$$), or use a good amp that accepts high level input (they are out there). the next challenge is the wiring. i personally like the ability to have control of woofer volume. this would be possible if two of the channels from the OEM HU are dedicated front/rear. i dont know this to be true yet. this would require the line driver if it is true. this way the OEM fader would fade the woofer channels. the front channels ideally would drive aftermarket tweet (triangle) and mid bass/midrange (front door) using a passive X-over. to do this, the speaker wires entering the door (i suspect one set where it is then "split up") could be used and connected to the front channel outputs in the trunk. the rear door speaker would be disconnected, the rear deck speakers removed, and a small sealed enclosure vs infinate baffle used for the bass.

are the door panels easy to remove and replace?? if they are, half the battle is over.

if it is true that the OEM HU 4 channel output is front rear, then that question is answered. i will find out. if you know, share it with me..thanks for the input..

BlokDok, can't confirm exactly what was done with the wiring. I'm taking the car back in to get the problems tweaked and will try to get more info then. My main objective with this install was to keep it simple and use top of the line components since I am planning to take the system out next fall and transfer to a new car which is on order. The 430 is on lease and I don't want to get into any type of install that is not easy to reverse. Bottom line is this system is a HUGE improvement over OEM. Parts and labor came out to $1500.

Just to clarify, the tweeter (triangle?) and driver in the door are Focal. The mid in the rear part of the front door is stock and is running off of the stock amp.

Do you think the EQ will help the vocals and take out some of the harshness that I find in the highs at loud volumes?

yes on the EQ question. good to hear of the dramatic improvement. ask your installer if he would be interested in describing in detail what exactly they did. i would happily pay him for this information (within reason of course). let me know. thanks

To disable the speed sensing volume, cut the green wire with black stripe. I did this a LONG time ago!

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1998 E320
1969 280SE
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