Fill up / Gas prices are going up by 24 cents a gallon
 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2005-03-03-gas-usat_x.htm

The place where I get diesel went up 14 cents a gallon two days ago!!
(they are charging the same for gas)

You know, on a personal note, I know you guys are used to me ranting about biodiesel, so I'll tell you a slightly embarassing little story.

I read the above article just now, and when I turned to tell my girlfriend about it she grinned, and said, "Yeeesss?" I started to tell her about the article, and she just had this huge smile on her face, and said, "continue..." and then I finally said something to the effect of, "Yay, biodiesel" and she said, "AH HA!!! I read that same article this morning, and when I read it I thought to myself, 'Sam is gonna read the article then make a comment about biodiesel'." And she was right.. So you aren't the only ones who hear it from me all the time.

peace,
Sam

Bring it on.
 

I have over 250 gallons of WVO stockpiled.

i've only got 25. but its a start!!



btw my wife paid 2.46 for b20!! d2 45c.

Spread the word Sam. Personally I can’t wait until fuel gets to the $5.00 a gallon range. It’s completely insane that in the age of computers we are still burning fossil fuels. The only reason for this is it’s cheaper to do this (with low fuel prices) than it is to change technology. Even as much as I hate the damage it does to the economy and how the wrong people get rich off of oil, these high gas prices are going to lead us to the right direction.

FYI seven out of the ten largest companies in the world either sell oil or cars. You think this has anything to do with it?

Sam and others you might like this video I made a while back for a school project. Some of the stuff on nuclear power has to do with my local area, but with 210 nuclear power plants on mainland US I am sure we can all relate.

matt's video

SORRY TO THOSE WITH DIAL-UP IT WONT WORK ON YOUR COMPUTER

I was paying $2.18 and that wasn't to bad, yesterday it was up to $2.22. I will fill up today even though I still have 1/2 a tank, before it hits $2.50. Spending $50 a week on fuel is going to be lots of fun. :rolleyes:

$3 a gallon is my breaking point, I will get a grease car kit when it hits $3 a gallon. Not to mention drive a 30mpg+ gas car such as a Honda Civic in the winter.

If that article is true, we'll be paying $3.00 for diesel since the stations around here are already at $2.75. :eek:

It's going to be here very soon! Diesel went from $1.96 to $2.19 here!

Today, BD is over 3.50 a gal. How is that any better? Sure, it is easy to say "change technology". How to do it is totally different. Look at Germany where the fuel prices are so high and diesel is lower. Yet with all that, they are only at 40% for passenger vehicles. Even there, diesel is not the answer to every question. Now, with diesel the way it is over here, how would you implement it short of outlawing everything that uses fossil fuels and having something that is practical and economical in place.

I wouldn't worry about the right direction. If it goes to $5 a gal this summer, we will probably have an economic collapse. Now, if it slowly goes up, I wouldn't worry about it. Back in 91, I got gas for about $1 a gal. In 98 it was closer to $1.50. That with all the squealing. However, I don't know about you but I was paid $5 more in 98 than 91 too. When you get a raise, do you scream about it too? IOW, it falls under "What's your's is mine and what's mine is mine." doesn't it? You expect to get paid more each year or you look for a diffrernt job. However when the seller expects to get more, it is a crime onto humanity itself, right? Nice double standard. I expect to make more money this year than the last and more next year than this year. So does the worker involved in the gasoline chain. As such, costs go up and we pay more. What's your point? Would you accept the same pay as you did 20 years ago? I wouldn't. Why should they?

And before you say it, I don't work for any oil company nor do I have any affiliations with them other than as a consumer.

I agree with you for the most part. Now that we have a government who is not putting pressure on OPEC to keep fuel prices down they are adjusting it to the market (or a raise). The truth is gas is worth $3.00 a gallon because that is what annalist say consumers will pay. In the free market that is what it ends up costing, but the educated consumer is going to reject this and you will see more diesels converted to vegetable oil/biodiesl and gasoline powered cars converted to natural gas.

Also, when the supply and demand curve adjusts those unwilling to pay the new $3.00 price do not fall off of the face of the earth or move to Canada. They simply adjust their spending habits. These spending habits increase the demand for alternative goods, thus creating a market and demand for newer non-fossil fuel powered technology.

Before you worry about what spices go best with the meat and what the other dishes should be and what wine you should serve, perhaps it would be better if you actually got the game. IOW, don't count your chickens before they hatch. Like I said, even with high gasoline taxes in europe they are still over 60% gasoline. What makes you think that it will be that easy to convert people over here to diesel when diesel automobiles are almost a dirty word? Yes, on a diesel forum we tend to think that if everyone went diesel the world would be a better place. Fact of the matter is that not everyone will go to diesel.

If europe with their high gas taxes can only muster about 40%, what do you think it will tke for us to get to that level? Neither gas nor diesel is THE answer. They are answers but not THE answer. It all depends on what you intend to do. If all I was doing was comuting to and from work, I wouldn't even bother with a diesel. As a beginning, I have to carry disposable gloves in the car for fueling up, it is harder to find a diesel station as opposed to a gas station, foams a lot when filling up, needs to glow befire ignition, lower gel point and has a strong smell that lingers on. At this time, because my wife does a lot of out of town driving and I want her in a 3000# or so car, (her previous gas model got 25 mpg and this one got 31 mpg) it became profitable for me to get one. However, if all I did was short distance city driving, I wouldn't have gone diesel.

That said, going biodiesel at over $3.50 a gal today is a hard sell. What makes you think that they will sell it for less when gas prices go up? If gas went to $5 a gal, you bet I'll sell B100 for over $5 because there will be someone that wants to save the world. Now, that is commercial B100. I won't even mention what it would take to convert people to homebrew. As I understand it, 50 cents per gal goes to the federal and state, etc, etc so you are actually paying $2 a gal (at $2.50 a gal) for gas.

You may have misread what I wrote. I never claimed that people are going to switch to diesel. All I am saying is that higher prices cause some people to be “priced out” or unwilling to pay the $3.00 a gallon.

This will drive an increase in alternative goods.

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

If biodiesel were cheaper than regular diesel, your two business strategies would be to raise the price of biodiesel to just over regular diesel and capitalize on the people who want to save the world, or you could set the price at just under diesel, and capitalize on the people who want to save the world and everyone else. Even with the lower margin you'd make it all back and more on volume.

Trust me, biodiesel producers are working to lower costs, its only in their best interest.

Europe may be at about 40% diesel now, but over 50% of the cars sold there in 2004 were diesel, and 56% of Mercedes sold there were diesel. Change is slow because people aren't usually going to throw away a 'perfectly good' gas car, even if diesel is a better choice for them, but when choosing a new one, they are more likely to choose diesel. The change is happening now.

The cost of commodities always increases along with inflation, but as commodities become more scarce, or demand exceeds supply, the price change is going to be more than just following inflation. Every country has certain energy costs, and they get a certain intensity out of it (energy intensity being the amount of energy required to generate 1$ of wealth). However, energy costs are increasing faster than energy intensity is increasing. Hence, more money is being spent to generate the same amount of product. That is not sustainable, from an economic standpoint.

Eventually petroleum will not be feasable, and other sources will be looked to, biodiesel is probably one of them. There are some people who feel that now is the time to look to those things, as opposed to later, when conversion could be more expensive than it is now.

Our fuel prices are going up, and will probably continue to do so, but we still aren't at all time highs. However, once we hit 3$ a gallon (2005 dollars) that would be an all time high price record (adjusted dollars).

Everytime the cost goes up, people gripe, and then it comes down and they forget about it, then back up and they gripe, and back down and they forget about it. But the trend has been generally upward for a while, and there is nothing to suggest it won't be generally upward for years to come.

peace,
sam

This is going to hit those of us in the marine industry hard. :( I bet gas is $3-$3.50 a gallon this summer. That means my grandfathers boat for example will cost, $750-$875 to fill up. :eek: On a trip we can burn through 2-4 tanks. :eek:

The powerboat industry is going to be hit hard, some people don't care and can afford it but a large % can't. I guess sailboats will become the in thing, and diesel boats will have even higher resale.

It is going to cost people $30k in fuel to bring a boat from CT to FL! :eek:

It's $3.60 per U.S. Gallon here. Any looming near term increases will send it over $4.00. We're use to it! Still plenty of SUV's and big pickups on the roads too.

Dave from the north country

Bring on the gas prices. I'm tired of being surrounded by massive SUV's and pickups. This may sound funny, but I think high gas prices and the eventual depletion of fossil fuels are the only way humanity will be saved from self-destruction.

And with it, goes the prices of everything else. That sounds like the "Lets nuke the backyard to get rid of the gopher" approach. You do realize thta diesel also goes up and so does the cost of everything else. But sounds like a plan to me. :rolleyes: If you think that solving the issue of fossil fuels will solve the problem of humanity's self destruction, please put down the pipe. We have had 2 world wars and then gas was not so much an issue. Before that, we had wars but not on so large a scale because it was logistically impossible.

Speaking of being tired of surrounded by SUVs and trucks because of their gas mileage, I notice that you have NOTHING to crow about either. Tell me about your fantastic gas mileage and what it is compared to the top 10 of cars. I think my diesel gets better mileage than yours and I wouldn't dare crow about it because I am not even in the top 10 list. What was that saying about people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? Yes, I know you can switch to biodiesel or WVO. However those are not practicval solutions for most people. And lets say for the sake of arguement we did switch. Well, the new hot comodity to fight over will be WVO. Oh yes, today it is free because it costs the company money to dispose. You bet that if they thought they could, they would sell it to you and then we will be back at square one again.

I driving my pick up now because it's cheaper for me to drive it than my 300D.

IMO, the way things are going now, there's nothing that'll save humanity from its eventual self destruction. :musicbooh :hanged:

Solve the fossil fuel issue and guess what, you'll still have someone that will come up with something else that will cause self destructive behavior. Besides, if humanity is that screwed up, maybe it doesn't deserve to be around.

Aklim, WWII will be nothing in comparison to what may happen if we have a run-away climate. The only thing that can do more damage is a big asteroid hit or the death of our sun (which isn't due for another billion years or so). Already glaciers in Alaska are losing 1.8 meters of ice each year, sea levels are rising and so is the average global temperature, and this is an exponential process. If you think that continuing to use fossil fuels as our primary source of energy is the way to go just because it takes too much effort to switch to something cleaner or because you're afraid things might get more expensive, then you're the one who needs to put down the pipe. As a side note, I do not control gas prices (you sounded like I do), and I personally don't mind paying more for everything if it means people will start wasting fuel a little less and trust me, they will when gas prices hit $4 a gallon.

I don't brag about the fuel mileage of my cars unless someone who drives a gas guzzler attacks me with "your diesels are filthy". I know my cars don't have spectacular fuel mileage but they are better than average. In the near future, it may not be the fuel mileage that's most important, but the fuel that's used. I use B5 and as soon as something more concentrated is available (which may be soon), I'll be the first one to start using it.

It is all fine to say switch. So far nothing has even come close to being an alternative. Like I said before, Every year I want to get paid more and so do employees of the gas companies. Price of things go up every year. So does the cost of your services or do you keep the same wage every year? If there is a viable alternative, I'd love to see it. I do mind paying more to ensure that people waste less. I am not the self-sacrificing type. I am the selfish type. If gas hits $5 a gal but my wages are up there, I can live with it.

What would you do if say we eliminated all the gas guzzler trucks and SUVs and someone comes tapping you on the shoulder saying "I'm getting 65 mpg. We need to get your old junks off the road and into the recycle bin so they don't waste gas for the rest of us."? So far, I am not impressed with my B2 experiment. It gets the same mileage as regular diesel IF I use cetane booster to raise it up by at least 3 points on the cetane scale.

Currently the biofuels and SVO can definately support the little demand we have. If we became a 40% diesel community like Europe, you think it will still be viable? I don't know that it will. Besides, not everyone loves the diesels. If it wasn't for the fact that I get over 6 mpg more and totaled my car I wouldn't even have bought a diesel. Since those circumcisions were met, I tried a diesel even though I have wondere about them for years.

Unfortunately, some of us don't get paid more each year. Working in a small town doesn't always offer alternative employment either.
Hence, increased fuel costs relative to previous years has a negative effect to one's personal economy, and thusly the fuel companies can bite me.
At $3.51 for diesel here in US gallons, I'm gearing up for WVO.
So the oil companies can bite me again. :D

Not to sound heartless but have you thought about moving out somewhere else or changing vocation? If it was that way for me I would certainly be looking at another workplace first, another town or another vocation.

I think there are lots of people in his situation. It's not that easy to just pick up everything and move to where the grass is greener or change vocations. It took an me additional two years of my life to be able to advance my degree to where I could change what I was doing and I 'm still not seeing such a big increase in my salary. I don't know what the employment situation is like in Canada but it's still not that great here in the US. There are still too many companies here downsizing or cutting benifits in order to stay in business. The problem is that we get used to a certain price of a comodity and when it makes a sharp climb in price, we're not bugeting enough money toward anticipating such increases.
I think it's rediculous to say that it's not following inflation. Petroleum is a volitile comodity and has gone up and down in price. It is something that is driven by supply and demand. So when the price falls should we get a cut in our wages, I don't think so.

Lietuviai--if you think Gas/Diesel is expensive now-imagine what it would be like if Venezuela pulls out of the US market and we lose that vital 20% we now get from Venezuela. It will make today's prices look like firesale bargains.Our gas/diesel would shoot up past $4/gal should this transpire ans it is looking more every day that will transpire. Glad I have that VW-TDI that gets 40/50mpg.

Posted on Sat, Feb. 12, 2005




VENEZUELA


Venezuelan refinery sale increasingly likely


Question: Recent comments by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez have aroused speculation that Venezuela may sell its U.S. oil-refining operations. Do you see the sale of Venezuela's U.S. refinery operations as a realistic possibility? How would such a sale affect U.S.-Venezuela oil ties?

Answer from Luis Giusti, senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a former chairman and CEO of Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA): Petroleos de Venezuela currently sells some 1.4 million barrels per day to the U.S. market, over 60 percent of that country's total oil exports that go to dozens of clients along the Gulf of Mexico and on the east coast. That market offers the best economic returns for those exports, but more importantly many of its refineries, with their technological complexity, offer a niche for processing the mostly sour and heavy Venezuelan crudes. Citgo is the most important piece of that marketing platform. Selling it would mean a great loss of PDVSA's marketing flexibility and no doubt would eventually translate into important economic losses. Behind the Citgo announcement lies the anti-U.S. rhetoric, with the noisiest threat being the suspension of oil supplies to the U.S. in order to ship them to China.

Answer from Beatrice Rangel, president of AMLA Consulting: I believe that Venezuela's U.S. refinery operations will most probably be sold with geopolitics attached to the price tag. From President Chávez's viewpoint, the sale is both a defensive move against any potential retaliatory action by the U.S. against these assets as well as a welcomed cash infusion. The former suggests that the sale could be partial, seeking to bring in a partner from another oil-producing nation. The U.S. would be left with two options: to prevent the partnership from taking place or undertake retaliatory action knowing that the partner will be less than complimented by the action.

Answer from Bryan Caviness, lead analyst for Citgo for Fitch Ratings: It is quite obvious what the strategic importance has been and continues to be for Citgo as the No. 1 outlet of Venezuelan crude oil. So in terms of the likelihood of selling it, I think they will continue to look at it and see what the options are. Any future analyses will take into account that there is a lot of value in those refineries, particularly in this market right now versus what there maybe was five years ago -- even three years ago in 2002 when U.S. refining margins plummetted. Given the high price of crude today and the big light-heavy deferential, even more value is placed on them. The relationship is obviously very important to both countries as far as the crude oil supply -- the U.S. being the major offtaker and Venezuela being a very big U.S. supplier.

Portions of Inter-American Dialogue's

Anyone have any ideas why Aklim is so pro-fossil fuels?

Is he working for the Saudi Prince, Halliburton, or just watches too much Fox News?

It sounds like he's got money to burn and doesn't care what fuel costs.

I am pro fossil fuels because I don't see anything else in the horizon that is not experimental or does not cost an arm and a leg or costs too much when everything is counted in. When you say alternative, first off I am a skeptic because proponents of a system tend to be like used car salesmen. They only tell you their side of the story and how wonderful it is. Secondly, to me, an alternative has to be a true alternative. For instance, if biodiesel is next to a regular diesel pump and costs the same with about the same properties, it is an alternative. However, if it costs significantly more and/or has some other drawbacks in terms of say gelling at a much lower point, then that is not an alternative. So far, the alternatives have been nothing more than a PITA one way or the other. Properties are different and cost is higher, etc, etc.

I wish, I wish and I don't in that order.

Perhaps we could start utilizing our own oil supply and become self-sufficent. I've heard that we sell almost all of the oil we get in Alaska to Japan...Then we turn around and buy it from other countries? doesnt make any sense to me!
"alternative" fuels sound all well and good - but there isnt a biodiesel pump anywhere around me and I've heard good and bad about WVO. I'd hardly consider WVO an "alternative" if it gels and plugs filters.. why are people turning this into a political thing? I like fox news..I'd rather watch it than the Communist News Network or any of the other left wing BS. Although most disagree, I think Fox News is fair and neutral. But what do I know :P

Just speculating here but if we can sell it (different oil from different regions have different properties and maybe someone wants that specific one) at say $55 a barrel and buy it at $54 a barrel, it might make sense?

At close to $4 a gal, I'd hardly consider biodiesel an alternative, would you?Last time I checked B100 was over $3.75 a gal and diesel was about $1.99 a gal. How is that an alternative? An expensive option, yes. Now, if they can get it to within say a few cents of regular diesel without any gimicks and add some anti-gel stuff that keeps it stable to the level of regular diesel, that would be an alternative and one I would buy into.

Look no one is ever going to directly force somebody to get rid of his or her gas guzzler. But with $4 a gallon, most SUV and pickup owners will have to take a hard look at their fuel consumption and decide whether it's worth to keep their vehicles. I think in the end this will be good because these vehicles will finally be used for what they were intended: hauling cargo or off roading. I see far too many Ford Super Duties and such vehicles with only one or two people inside just cruising in the city, going to the mall or idling in a drive-thru for a long time.

I already told you B2 will not give you better fuel economy. In fact not even B100 will. That is not the purpose of biodiesel. The purpose of biodiesel is to provide better lubrication, vastly lower emissions, and to be an alternative fuel that doesn't have to be imported and can support the local economy.

I'm not sure if this country could grow enough biodiesel for all its diesel vehicles, but I know we can do a lot better. Europe has many more diesel vehicles, yet biodiesel is quite easy to find over there. For example, last I heard France has B5 at every diesel station and it's not uncommon to find B30 throughout the Czech Republic. As diesels become more popular in the US and the demand for biodiesel continues to grow as it has over the past few years, I'm optimistic biodiesel will become increasingly more available, and with increasing petrolleum prices, even B100 may one day be cheaper than diesel.

Perhaps so. But like a nuke, it will take out more than just that one spot. If it goes to $4 a gal, maybe some of the SUV and truck owners would be hurt. HOWEVER, so would the rest of us who drive cars. People hoping that would happen are the ones that would make it easier for the prices to go up either by the oil companies or the government taxes. It would be easier to ram down a price increase if the public was more accepting because they think it will get rid of a problem. IOW, to get this "good thing" you speak of, many others migh have to suffer too. Kinda like a "Cut the face to spite the nose" thing. I don't know but once Hitler got to show the German population that the Jew was evil and the cause of problems, it became much easier to send troops to round them up into concentration camps. Do you think that might happen to our case? I don't know.

So far, B2 goes 1 mpg LESS than regular diesel. Maybe it is that shop only but until I can get my hands on another supplier, that is all I have to base my opinion on. I'd like a few more suppliers so I can run a test on all of them to see whether it is just that one or others. I know that Woodman's sells diesel that SUCKS. Car feels more sluggish and mpg goes down. That is regular diesel. The only reason I am continuing with the B2 experiment is that the only other station within 5 miles that sells gas the cheapest is next to this Cenex station that sells B2 and is selling B2 for the same price as regular diesel. The one by my house is 10 cents more a gal. So it is worth the trip for me to do the experiments.

I don't know if diesel will become more popular here in the US. Most poeple here don't seem to care for diesels in general. Would it be easy to overcome? Probably not. You'd have to give some massive breaks for diesel fuel for it to work. That break would have to be carried by everyone else who isn't into diesels since if you give a tax break somewhere, it has to be made up elsewhere. That I am against. If biodiesel is going to work, it has to stand for itself and not be borne on the backs of others. Like I said before, the only reason I went diesel is the 20-25% increase in mileage since the wife was doing a lot of out of town driving. In town, I know that given my druthers, I'd take the gas cars. Now, if B100 can be a true alternative (ie, very slight difference between it and petrodiesel) and be cheaper without gimmicks like tax cuts and what not, I would go for it.

Don't forget that gas and diesel are subsidized, biodiesel is not. It is the petro-based fuel that is borne on the backs of others. So is beef. I don't like subsidies at all and I firmly believe in free and fair market.

Diesels are clearly getting more popular in the US, that's a fact. One good example is the Jeep Liberty CDI. The demand for it is much higher than what Daimler-Chrysler expected, and I think to a lower extent the same is true for the MB 320CDI. I like the VW TDI's and I'm considering to buy one.

You can say people get "hurt" when gas prices go up, but I think people just whine too much and are spoiled. They don't really get hurt, they may just have to adjust their wasteful lifestyles. Europeans pay twice as much for their gas, and I don't see them grieving and suffering, they just adapt, for example by using public transportation more and buying more fuel-efficient cars. The Hitler thing is a bad analogy, though I see your point. The truth is, our government doesn't just pick gas prices out of a hat, it's mainly based on global supply and demand. If people mind increasing fuel prices, they would actually do good by using less fuel (my suggestion) and thus help keep prices under control.

Without getting into an argument about petro molecules, I am just glad that I have a diesel. If indeed there ever was a catastrophic cut in supply, we diesel drivers have options. This is contrary to gas gusslers.

Case in point, after Hurricane Jean, parts of Florida had a one weekend fuel shortage - many gasoline pumps were shutdown with panicked drivers driving around like the world was coming to an end. Saw this back in 73,'79. I just pulled up to my local station and filled up with diesel. Hypothetically, even if there was limited diesel for passenger cars, I could find bio products and mods to keep me going. Yea I would cut back driving, but I would not go to sleep at nite thinking where I will get fuel the next day. That's BS

Did that in the 70's and I vowed never to do that and wait in 5AM, 50 car long gas lines ever again.

I do feel sorry for those guys who have to commute long distances. Just remember if it ever gets bad, you can do what I did in CT back in the 79. I charged carpoolers big bucks to give them a commuter ride. And they gladly paid.

Fox is fair and neutral. To the multinational corporations and the administration.
I like news which is fair and neutral to the public.

I'm curious as to how diesel and gas are subsidised. Not saying they aren't but just not sure how. I know that biodiesel gets a tax break to make it competitive. I'm with you on the free market thing tho.

As to it getting more popular, we will see. It might just be a phase like the Dodge Viper that was once a "must have" to the point that when it first came up the sticker price was much higher than the MSRP or the Volkswagen Bug where the waiting list was over a year.

You do realize that if I adjust my lifestyle and go out less because I have to spend more in my daily routines like going to work, I will spend less elsewhere. So when I go out in my SUV, I buy gas, snacks, etc, etc and other stuff to go with the trip. When I get there, I get lodgings and more food, souvenirs, etc, etc. Less to spend on a trip means less to spend elsewhere too. Other industries will hurt as well. So yes, I will adjust and so will others but what is the side effect.

Looks like Iran is using the oil card to get Europe and the US to back off:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12461201^2703,00.html

This should be interesting. Look for a lot of folks to go for that backyard swimming pool and vacation at home this year. Ummm note to self: check out Pool Company stocks....

I'm pro fossil fuel as well. What's wrong with that? So what I have no social conscience, I choose the cheapest fuel that gets the job done, only taking into account me and my personal gain from not spending more on a fuel I don’t really need. I've gotten into debates about this before, and frankly this "drastic climate change" argument is false. Over the last 100 years we've had...what .6*C change. The average temperature of the earth now is almost 4*C less than it was during the hypsithermal, and humans existed then. The fact is, no legitimate data suggests that the rate of change of temperature of the earth is changing for the worse. These 10 degree's in 10 year claims are entirely bogus. All measurements show that major pollutants are either on the decline or increasing at a slower rate than they were, I know this ecological disaster mumbo jumbo makes for entertaining movies, but it's simply NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

That said, as I've said before... My car smokes less on certain BD mixes and it seems to run better. That's worth the extra 20-30 cents a gallon every other tank. However, many people who drive can not rationalize spending more on fuel or don't have the time to go dumpster diving for old oil, don't condemn them for that.

As for subsidies...since you don't like them, lets also get rid of the wind and solar subsidies, see how quickly the earth heats up when people realize without a government kick back there's no reason to use those technologies.


Maybe I'll have to get another car if my old 240d dies...I was actually thinking of going Old volvo squareback and covering it with a vomit of other people's thoughts condensed into quirky, attention craving bumperstickers. Ooh! Look at me! I know what "Nepal" means! Namaste! I'm so ****ing spiritual and wordly! Kill me now!

Oh oh oh and Whole Foods is selling a Patchouli air freshener! It's great for aligning my chakras on the way to a fur protest or a Churchill speech. The gas mileage is sort of crappy, but it's only a couple miles each way to pick up my monthly trust fund check, and I can always take my boyfriend's Tundra. That's a nice car, built of half Japanese and half Dixie parts, and doesn't give any money to the little Eichmanns in New York.

Cheers,
Nate

Not sure what you are trying to say Cannonball but as far as the solar and wind subsidies go, I'm all for research. However, after so many years of it, and end has to be in sight. Either it will fly or it won't. If it won't, time for it to go. Just like a kid. You wouldn't want your son or daughter to just sit home all day long and not do anything, would you? After they are so old, I'm sure you would toss them out and say "Your turn at bat." or would you just keep them fed, clothed and a roof over their head and some spending money if they didn't want to do anything for it?

If you don't care about our opinions, what makes you think we care about yours?

-sam

Check out the documentary "Outfoxed" that might be of interest to you. In the James Bond movie "Tomorrow Never Dies" they used the figure of Rupert Murdock (the owner of News Inc. and FOX ;) ) as the evil arch enemy....maybe they were hinting at something. :D

..subsidies... Some people are saying "ohh I hate all subsidies, for oil, for crops, for everything." and then the same people (not on here, I don't know you all, but in my experience, and from those expereinces I can infer that people on here might feel the same way) are all about the wind/solar subsidies helping them "get off the ground", when we run out of coal, oil, natural gas, steam from the earth, water and uranium then maybe solar and wind will be economically feasible, until then, let the economy run it's course. It is not in the best interest for any company to destroy the world and if that is inevitable then things will be done to stop it, don't worry, don't try to force your ideals on others.
-Nate

Looks like Cannonball is pulling the old Bill O'Riley trick
 

make up the "facts" to support your argument

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002198506_oceans06.html

Unfortunately the momentum seems to be building on the otherside. CB is just hoping that when the oceans rise Western CO will become the new coastline.

Short term subsidies may be ok, but I'm against all long-term subsidies as those just lead to inefficiency and they support something that isn't really working. The main problem with them is they force everybody to pay for something through taxes, regardless of how many people actually use the product. The biodiesel tax incentive was meant to help biodiesel compete against subsidized diesel fuel, but it's not enough to level the playing field.

CannonBall, I know the earth has its own thermal cycles, but even if we assume the recent warming is a natural cycle, the question still is do you want to add fuel to the fire? Lots of things are natural, but not all of them are good. If there's a lightning-triggered fire close to your home, are you gonna go out into the forest and pour gasoline on it? My guess is you won't. Then why do you want to pump a bunch of CO2 into the atmosphere to accelerate the current global warming process? It is a fact that CO2 is a heat-trapping gas. You also have to realize that today there are way more people living on this planet than during the stone age. Even small increases in global temperatures can lead to massive disasters.

fuel prices
 

Some people may live in an area that your wage may go up each year. That isn't a given and some of us don't have a choice of alternate transportation other than driving our vehicles. Public transit in California is almost non existant in many areas. I try to be conservative. I and many others here have had at least 3 very hard years. Increasing fuel costs is outrageous for me because I can't imagine the cost has gone up that much so fast for very rich companies. Just look at some these refineries profits last year. Nobody in that industry is hurting. I wonder why the gov. wouldn't control OPEC...Bush family...Saudis...HMMMMM. California is already in a very precarious position financially with budgets. It hasn't been that long since Enron.

Do you really think that raising the cost of fuel prices is going to make those 7 largest companies try to get away from making all that money off of us? Even if they did have an epihpony and decide to do something good for the world it would take so long that who could survive in the world in the mean time. Everything is going to get really expensive because everything comes to us on a train(diesel) or truck(diesel). Sorry to rant I am frustrated.

Fuel distributors greed causing problem!
 

How is it being subsidised?? Holy cow, aren't we at war trying to make Iraq safe for the oil companies?(Dang there's that libertarian side of me again!!) Aklim, I know we have disagreed on BD before, but the answer is an attempt at some measure of energy independence-when one company can crank up the price 15% in one day, and EVERY other supplier can go right up with them, with no potential penalties of price-fixing, collusion, or antitrust, wouldn't anyone start thinking, hmm-possible monopoly?? My concern is a return of the 1973-80 period of stagflation-10%+ inflation and interest rates, wages not keeping up(don't worry I'm not that poor), and general economic malaise that followed OPECs first "gas war". The thing that most concerns me is that so many of our products are made in China and other Far East countries due to the exporting of much of our manufacturing capacity-continued out of control fuel(especially diesel)price increases that are basically profit taking events are going to cause a backlash by the average joe who doesn't understand what the deal is.

I see. So my shop downtown is also being subsidised because the police are making it safe for me to conduct business. My driving is subsidised because police are there to keep drunks off the road. My food is being subsidised because the USDA is there to make sure the food is safe. My meds are being subsidised because the FDA is there to make sure the drugs are safe. What isn't subsidised? Not even the air that I breath or the water I drink because the EPA is there to make sure that factories don't dump poison into the streams and air. I suppose if that is your defination of being subsidised. Where does biodiesel come from again? You sure there are no subsidies of any sort? I think there are.

My issue is that BD is not viable at the price it is. It cannot compete with pump diesel. B100 costs over $3.50 a gal. How are you adding it to somethign cheaper and making something of it. Like I said, if you have an alternative, let me know. Just plugging something in is not an alternative. If the alternative to me buying a $10 shirt at Wal*Mart is a $50 shirt at some store of your choice, is that an alternative? I think not. Let biodiesel come out as a fuel and let it compete. If you must, give it say a 5 yr tax break to see if it will stimulate growth so that the industry will be self sufficient. After that, sink or swim.

Aklim, clearly you don't know what a subsidy is. Here's the definition from dictionary.com: "Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest." Your shop is not subsidized by cops patrolling your street. Biodiesel as far as I know is not subsidized, but petrolleum-based fuels are. That's unfair competition and apparently the government doesn't yet see biodiesel as being "in the public interest". The truth is I don't want any subsidies for biodiesel, I just want subsidies for regular fuel to die, and I want the resulting tax refund now. :D Afterall why do my taxes have to go towards paying for fuel used mainly by gas-guzzling vehicles?

That defination is fine. I personally don't agree that we are subsidising the oil companies is all. After all, assuming oil is the only reason we went to war (not saying that I believe that), you could also say that if oil goes up in smoke, it won't be just the gas guzzlers that go down the toilet. It will be the world and us with it. Unfortunately the way the world is right now, it is just like a bunch of turds in a commode. One flush and it all goes. So I don't think it is just the oil companies. I think there was other motivation going on but that is another discussion. Lets put it this way, if the oil companies go down, the rest of the world goes with it. So, everyone, by that defination posted and assuming our troops are in iraq for only the oil, is being subsidised too.

My taxes are going to support a lot of causes I don't agree with either. For instance, we have the "Haves", the "Have Nots" and the "Will have yours". Why should my taxes go support them either? Do I get a refund too?