Troubled the future of old MB diesels is...
 

I think the fleet of existing cars is undergoing rapid change. Besides the usual attrition from accidents and rust, a lot of cars are changing hands more quickly. More of these cars are maintained by the owners now than before and this is good and bad. Good when a good dose of patience is applied before acting. Bad when well meaning owners use the cars as a means to try out fuel conversions, "performance tricks" or just general pimping. The car doesn't respond well to this, and a trip to the boneyard is right around the corner. Does anyone else wonder about this? I know I'm nuts anyway, but is it just me? wait, don't answer that one.

The present day prosperity which has now lasted 20 years, has encouraged people to junk their old cars and replace them with new. Furthermore there has been no gas shortage or crude oil shortage for 20 years, and that was a great impetus to diesel sales.

So you are correct, we now have a rapidly thinning stock of "classic" Mercedes diesels from the 70's and 80's which runs pretty thin when you look at the 90s.

Now if the present high price of oil continues we may see a resurgence of diesels but the technology has moved on. We will be looking at new diesel that cost $35,000,$50,000 and up, and that have all the present day "improvements" in air bags, ABS brakes, computers etc. which will make them harder on the do it yourselfer and which will also make it much harder to assure the long working life we are used to. Even if it is running perfectly, the diesel of the future will be scrapped if it needs a $3000 ABS system or computer system replacement, once the resale value slips below $3000.

So what I am saying is, if you want to assure yourself of a lifetime supply of diesel cars you can understand now is the time to buy 2 or 3 good low mileage examples and put them away in the garage. Because if the price and availability of oil goes the way I fear it will, in a few years they will be bid up so high we won't be able to afford them anymore.

You make a good statement but this is true for all cars not just MB. It's personaly sad to think of some of the fine cars I have owned in my life that are gone now :rolleyes:

So very interesting and true
 

This is a fasinating and true thread thus far. I certainly hope that more people read it and respond.

Ganaraska's comments seem to ring very true and describe the situation well. Today's cars are technologically well beyond what all but the most skilled and knowledgable DIY can be expected to keep running well for 300,000+ miles. While there are reasons for this which we can agrue for and against, it is the natural course to "improve."

A central requirement for an automobile to remain in service for a very, very long lifespan is that it remain serviceable by the owner or indy in a reasonably cost-effective way.

I have owned 50 year old european sportscars, none of them were inexpensive or practical to maintain; none of them had over 60,000 miles, none of them started up on a 10 deg F morning. Sportscars today are "better," but not classic. With regard to older-technology diesel passenger cars it seems that new is not absoletely better. Many of these older cars are still in practical service; many are still very presentable; many are quite practical and serviceable by their owners without vast discretionary funds, and with proper upkeep/maintenance as described throughout this forum, seem to be capable of service for a very long lifespan to come.

Personally, I could probably afford the new diesel passenger car if that suddenly became my obsession for some reason, but I would never buy it. I just feel that we have a good product already (mine is a W123 wagon) and if we work at it then it will prove us right in the future. I would probably buy a hydrid car in the future once the technology is better proven for reliability and it's put in a package that I like to look at and in a useful form (on this note the Prius falls short). In any case, I will coontinue to read this forum and park the new cars outside and the W123 inside the garage.

--CD

I'm a Purest.......
 

Going to look at my first 83 W123 240D...If she's fine,I'll keep her bone stock.I figure that with German engineering,there isn't anything I can do to improve on all of the research and development that went into this fine machine!

Why improve on perfection....

What got to me was the Benz commercial about the New Mercedes going threw it's life..looking at the family grow..and at the same time the car aging as well.Then you see her in the machine being crushed....Get's ya right there!

One thing to add
 

I think it's useful to add that while today's good diesels cost $30K to $60K. We should remember that many of our beloved inexpensive diesels from the early 80s did cost $30,000+ - $35,000 back then and in 1980s dollars.

The main difference being I think is that the older technology remains serviceable (although perpetual need for service) throughout its perpetual seeming lifespan, whereas today's technology will be more expensive to upkeep.

--CD

older technology
 

older technology is better in my eyes... when i was
a kid i could put the quarter in the soda machine and instantly
a coke droped... today i put the money in and wait 45 seconds
for the machine to think about giving me the soda...

remember we went to the moon back when these cars were built
we were at our apex...

I agree with you Pete, but, I don't see it as a rapid change. I see it as a continually evolving process.

In the last three weeks I have been a bit saddened to see three separate 300 SDL's reach a point where it is economically unfeasable to keep them operating. In all cases, the mechanical issues that have crept up on the owners over time, and the rust that has crept up on the body over time has resulted in a relatively intact vehicle that can't be restored for a penny less than $10K. I'm very sure of this value because I have documented all of the repairs to this SDL, and it has no need of paint and body work.

I see these vehicles as being very technically challenging for most people. This includes most of us on this board. We may not want to admit it, but, how many of us can say that we have repaired every single thing on the "list" and the vehicle, effectively, operates in the same condition as it was 20 years ago?

The fact is that these vehicles require significant amounts of time and money to keep them from deteriorating to the point where they are dismantled for parts.

Personally, I feel a sense of loss when this happens. It is almost as though the owners have failed the vehicle. Of course, the manufacturer is more than pleased to see a 20 year old vehicle head for the boneyard. However, I see it differently and and I'm going to provide my best efforts to prevent this from happening to these two.

Now we just hand all of our technology over to China and they ship it back to us as a product made with slave labor..

Veg oil
 

Although I do admire the people running their diesels on french fry oil, I don't trust myself to do that.

For me it would be like a science project and I don't want to go there and risk damage to 20+ year old parts. Plus insurance seems much more an expense than diesel (as long as your car doesn't get 8 mpg).

I hope the WVO, veg oil (whatever) drivers understand what they are doing much better than I do so that the cars stay on the road for a long time.

These are just cars though, and if people want to have fun doing different things to fuel them, if scoring bacon grease for your car is a turn on and identity builder, then so be it and enjoy. Nothing lasts forever no matter what you do with it. Nothing.

--CD

That's the neat thing about this forum Carlton...We can help form the future!

old mbs
 

at every little airport you will find cessnas and other airplanes
from as old as 1946 to 1974.... our last 401 cessna was a 1976
and these things are still operating...

the old mercedes diesel is like these airplanes....1983 has no rust at all.

Normal cycle; as W126's and W123's age and are junked people will move on to the W124/140 and so on. I see the beginings of this now W140's are getting cheap enough and are still new enough that some people seem to be jumping ship and upgradeing.

A lot of people buy these cars and just drive them I see few very nice older cars of any make on the road, but beat MB's just don't seem to die. As cars age people put less money into them.

Hold on to your nice older MB's because nice ones will be getting more rare.

These cars have not lost their charm yet. Just today, I was approached by a man who has a 1971 gasser (either a W114/115 or W108/109 presumably), and a 1986 560SL, he asked me if I would like to sell my 300D. I told him "oh no, I just got it." He asked me about the mileage, and he told me he is a member of MBCA, but that's about all we exchanged, he had to get into the office, and I needed fuel as the needle was almost on reserve, I wish I had gotten his name and referred him to this website. The old W123s have still got it. :)

Everything changes. Don't see too many 50s era cars on the road today. A Model T is a 'traffic stopper and gawker'. I wonder what folks said about those new air-filled tires - they just can't be a reliable as a good ol' solid tire.

must be rough for you east coast guys, my brother and his family are visiting out here from Newburgh, NY, and he always is impressed by the condition of my "older" rolling stock.

Out west, there is still a healthy supply of stock, non-rusted and originally equipped vehicles in great condition. Our greatest enemy on the west coast is the sun, rather than rust corrosion.

The sun bakes and cracks our interiors and fades our paint. but we still have safe, functional cars that are not rolling rust buckets. :sun_smile :sun_smile

Spend a couple of weeks out west and your fears of the older 123s going away will vanish.

Heck, I just bought my first Benz back in March and I am looking forward to running the car in my sig for at least the next 5 years as my basic commuter.



I have been driving Jap gassers for the past 20 years, figured I would try something different this time..

not to worry, my friend, everything will be just fine


:D :D :D


big jake

"A lot of people buy these cars and just drive them I see few very nice older cars of any make on the road, but beat MB's just don't seem to die. As cars age people put less money into them."

That is generally true but there are always exceptions to the rule. I just put about 4.5K in my old 240D taking care of the rust, to many this is pretty darn stupid, but I did it and it now looks like new. The rust was extensive and was becoming structural, floor pans, doors, windsheld surrounds and some around the battery area. What prompted me to do this was the fact that I had installed a new motor 3 years ago and I just coud not see sending this old mama to the junkyard.
This particular 1977 240D is about as basic as it can get, manual tranny, no power wndows, a real taxicab model, and after 24 years of ownership this old thing will probably outlast me real easy.
I live in Houston, and the 123's that were all over this place are gradually disappearing, most of the remaining 123/126's that I see in our town look pretty darn worn out and tired, so it is just a matter of time before these old horses all but disappear.

Vahe
240D/77 350K

"when i was
a kid i could put the quarter in the soda machine and instantly
a coke droped... today i put the money in and wait 45 seconds
for the machine to think about giving me the soda"

Where do you find pop machines that work? When I put my money in a pop machine and actually get a can of pop I feel I have won the lottery. They work correctly less than half the time in my experience. That's why I don't use them anymore if I can help it.

You are right though, 40 years ago they were mechanical and trouble free. You could see instantly if they contained any bottles of pop and if they did, you could be sure they would dispense one if you put in 10 cents.

Unfortunately, many Benz owners are bean counters not really committed to preserving their older cars. When the tranny or engine goes, to the scrapyard goes their "beloved" MB. The reason: cost-benefit analysis; it doesn't "pencil-out" to put more money into a car than it's worth.

This is a bottom-feeding approach that generally leads to a string of one crappy car being replaced by another crappy car.

Best, IMHO, to commit to fixing and maintaining one memorable classic car. Simply put: If something breaks, fix it. Preservation is the only salvation from the junkyard.

Insurance companies total them for a bent fender and pay far less than the replacement cost, to the junkyard.

Power companies can buy the pollution rights for your car and use the rights to burn cheap, dirty coal and shower the population with mercury and radiation, to the junkyard.

Amateur wrench-twisters fix one thing and break two more while doing it. The toll reaches the breaking point, to the junkyard.

Too many of those veg-cars are conversation pieces for bar-fly mentalities and vanity trophies for environmental supremacists. Talk is cheap, to the junkyard.

I wish the junkyards were nearer to me.

I found a "junk" yard not too far from where I live where many W123's have made their final journey. Many of those that were there may have looked nicer when they arrived there than my car is now. The owner of the yard told me many of them had run but were junked for various reasons, most what sounded like for so called "cost effective" reasons.

My oldest son and I spent a few hours at the local pull a parts yesterday picking up some parts for the '81 300D (he rear ended a Nissan this past week - destroyed the grille, condenser, cooling fan headlight doors and radiator). Anyway, there were as many 123's and 126's as I have ever seen there and we were able to literally take our pick amoung the different cars for the parts. The majority of the 126's were gassers and I am considering returning to pick up some Euro bumpers from a 126 that looked good. I found it surprising that none of them looked like they had been in a wreck:eek:. There was a gorgeous black 300D there that the body was as straight as any I have ever seen and looking under the hood you could tell it had been taken very good care of.
Here are a couple of shots of the "older" car row that is behind the section where the European cars are located. If you look real close in the second pic you can see a gasser fintail. I once saw a 220S there with a beautiful wooden dash just waiting for someone to come get it.

At my nearest "Auto Dismantler" as they call themsemves now, there is no "pick n pull" option. They remove the part and charge 1/2 new price. For a zebrano console trim for a W123, they were asking Au$150, even though it was delaminating. Headlights Au$250 each.
You have it way easier in USA, than us here in Australia.

bad for low cost replacement parts.

finding a nice W123 is getting hard. Heck most W124's need $$ to bring them up to snuff

M

This just makes a PLUS to our "cost-benefit analysis!"

I Just purchased my first BM diesel about 2 months ago. After about going broke putting $35-$40 worth of gas in my old Caddy 2 to 3 time a week, I had been looking into getting a new or nearly new "econo-box" Something for under about $15K that got 30 or so mpg. My mechanic who usually works on only European cars would cringe anytime I would pull in in the old Eldo. He had had this '81 300SD at his shop for a couple of years that he ended up with when the guy that brought it in hadnt paid his bill. He rebuilt the tranny, went through the motor and had had it for sale for about the last yr and 1/2. The body is straight, interior and paint are not perfect, but a solid car. In my frustrating search I had to call him to ask him a question for a friend, and I thought to ask if he still had that "diesel" for sale, he said yes and I said I will be over to drive it. He had been asking $4000 for it. I drove it, came back and asked for his bottom dollar. To make an even longer story short.....I wrote him a check for $3000 and drove her home. A week after I got her I had to take a trip to a wedding out in AR (about 750 mi.) I got 33mpg! At that rate just the savings in fuel will pay for the car in short order. I think it is one of the best moves I have ever made, I would much rather be driving my 24 yr old Benz than the little Suzuki or Chevy that I had been thinking about for 4-5 times the money! :tongue3:

-Chris

'81 300SD 257700
'84 Eldorado 100500

These cars get expensive to fix, eventually to many things are broke to economicaly bring one back and the car is junked. The 420SEL that I stripped was like that the body was really good except for the tons of rust underneath. But everything under the hood, suspension, and interior was tired. Tons of $100 parts add up. Or the engine could blow how many cars are worth a $6k-$10k rebuild?

Why have a shop put $10k into a tired W123 when a very nice W124 or even a W210 can be had for that or a bit more? Unless you know these cars well and can do most of the work yourself it isn't practical to bring one back.

I bet if you dropped a tired W123 off at a dealer and wanted them to bring it back it would cost well over $20k if not over $30k.

I agree with you Dawg379, any car that big that gets :bulb: 33mpg :bulb: will pay for itself in short order. And a solid car is exactly what your car is! The 83 SD I have is clean (inside & out) sharp too even if it could stand a paint job, but looks good like it is. I want to take the engine out and put it in my W124 300E! That is if no one has serious interest in it....because 33mpg is very appealing to me! (and I love my W124! :sun_smile )

i can agree that a few hundred dollar parts can add up. id like to point out insurance. these cars are very inexpensive to insure. take 3 100 dolar parts a month, install them yourself... for 5 years.

that'd buy you a chevalier or a neon. nothing nice.

imagine the w123/124/126 you would have at the end of that period of time.

imagine the economy car, it'd need replacing or atleast the same work as the mercedes by this time. assuming it has about 130k on it by then.

the costs and benefits kind of level out at some point, far be it from me to say when that is... its just apparent that with transportation you have two options

1) continually pay a payment(and high insurance premiums) and stick the key in and go

or

2) pay for repairs as necessary and knock on the (real) wood trim hoping that ole shlomo wants to start today.

I've had my 85 300D for about a year now. If I hadn't bought it it would likely be in a bone yard now. One of the rear trailing arms had rusted out and the rear tire was at a 15 degree angle. I replaced it and have done all the maintanance myself with much help from this site. I bought it to run home brew bio-diesel in. Mine is right on the edge of being a restorable car. If it was a 6.9 it would be restored in a heartbeat. I have put 20,000 miles on it in the year I have had it. There are many things I probably wont fix, various oil leaks, air conditioning, power antenna, there is a short somewhere that pops the fuse for the clock and interior lights, and i have one power window that doesn't work. I do have a parts car now though.
My 78 on the other hand, only has 97,000 miles on it and is close to being a show piece.

In my case since I am 19 insurance is $200 a month no matter what I drive. A few hundred bucks a month can get you into a 5 year old XJ8 or late 90's W140/W210. I crunched the numbers, for me I have one because I like it not because it is cheaper.

Have to agree with Big Jake
 

I'm originally from the east coast but now living in Phoenix...it's paradise for old cars...of many makes. And this and Vegas are some of the fastest growing cities in the nation. We have a lot of old MBs in great shape. 80s SLs are a dime a dozen out here. Let's hope it continues.

I have driven Jap cars for the last 15 years. They are great cars...dependable...but not cheap to repair. I went the MB route for something different...I won't be back anytime soon!

We're the ones keeping up the tradition.

"At my nearest "Auto Dismantler" as they call themsemves now, there is no "pick n pull" option. They remove the part and charge 1/2 new price. For a zebrano console trim for a W123, they were asking Au$150, even though it was delaminating. Headlights Au$250 each.
You have it way easier in USA, than us here in Australia"

Wow I think I'll move to Australia and open a junkyard! Not really. But Tony you should do what I do, buy a cheap broken down Mercedes of the same model and keep it for parts. I am dickering right now for a rusted out 300SD for $200. In my case it's because I live in Possum Lake and there aren't any Mercedes in wrecking yards unless I go 50 miles and their prices aren't cheap either($100 for a used tailight!).

If you don't have room to keep an old car around, run an ad "Mercedes parts for sale",(first strip off everything you need )and after a week or 2 you should have sold enough parts to recoup your investment, and you can sell the car for scrap.

I'll admit, when I my brother and I first got our diesels, his an 84 300D, mine and 85, we got them with the intention of having a couple of old beaters we could burn WVO in. I've had mine since around October and he's had his for about a month longer. We have gone completely opposite directions in the way we care for our cars. I've always thought there was something special about this car but I couldn't really appreciate it like it deserved until I found this website. He still complains about the slow acceleration and other miniscule things while I have long since moved past these petty things and have learned to appreciate it for the wonderful example of German enginering that it is. While I do still run it off of WVO, I am much more considerate of the car while doing so than he is. My brother will switch over to veggie before the car is barely warmed up. I wait until a few minutes after it reaches operating temp before I switch over. He's insistant about running his mobil 1 the full 5k while I change mine ever three months(dead odo but I know I don't go nearly that far). I've done more maintenance to mine than he would ever dare to do to his. By the way, I'm 17 and he's 36. He wants to pull the conversion kit and buy a Jetta. I tell him go ahead and I'll be there to catch it as soon as he lets it slip through his fingers!!! :D

Time to resurrect this post with a thought. Information and cooperation through forums like this offer some of the best hope for keeping and enjoying these old diesels. Finding info is easy. Finding KNOWN GOOD info is harder. I've been trying to amass some personal knowledge of the 722.303 transmission lately, and its been a struggle.

Significant modifications or even repair of complex systems usually result in at least some unexpected consequences. Knowing simple but important stuff like "mark the driveshaft BEFORE you seperate it" goes a long way.

As a mechanical engineer, I love all the nifty ways they used to do things in cars. Now it's like a sensor and a switch, ohh look out. Bah, it's no fun anymore. I still think the MB diesel with cruise has the most awesomely complicated linkage.
-Nate

Obviously, you've never had to deal with the air cleaner mount on an OM617.952! :D :D :D

Absolutely! The yards around here burned me soooo bad, I vowed to never set foot on their property again. Consequently, I now have 9 MBZ of various vintages and models. Three are definitely giving their souls so that the others may continue to provide the safe economical tranportation they were intended for.

hatt:
Who says it cant be cheaper AND likable?

Ole shlomo might just be my grad school car if he holds up ok!

I do not agree that pimping my car will make it see the junkyard faster. Im fixing to sew cow print seat inserts and add some tacky puffball trim around the roof=) not that im going to sew this cheap fabric to the pristine original seats or permanantly attach this trim, i just want a car i can laugh at when i ride in it=)

Fun is something i look for in a car, the mercedes is pretty lacking in that area. i think a lot of people want fun cars, i did when i bought the leon. a high revving 4 cyl, 5 speed and all that big stereo stuff in there. it even has the rainbow upholstery. now tha its a few years old, its tired.

this whole thread is about the timelessness of these little guys, keeping them running and on the road instead of in garages. are you guys worried about the beetles too?

Beetles, as i see it, are in more danger than these old mercs. ive cringed many times when i heard a 16 year old dropping the clutch and actually accelerating in one. acceleration is bad! heh heh let alone these children going 80 in them. although i wonder how long they can hold that speed(did the same thing in one of my beetles...but i actually learned, didnt just buy a honda....)

I like my 300SD and it is a $500 rust bucket that runs like crap! :D But compared to a W126 in proper shape such as my SDL it is a beater that is on its last few years. Driving a properly sorted W126 is awsome the suspension is tight and it handles great. Nothing like sitting in a perfect interior with the cruise control set and the climate control keeping it cool inside.

Sure anyone can drive a MB for cheap and why not? If you need a cheap car to get around in it might as well be a MB. :cool:


But if you want a properly sorted one that drives and feels like it did when it came out of the factory, well then it is going to cost you.

I also disagree that MB's are boring stock. I hate the stock wheels but other then that they are pretty nice stock. Other then chrome door sills and a better sound system I can't think of anything I would want to change inside.

But whatever floats your boat, if you want to mod something go for it!

I agree with that for the most part, but the factory air intake system is deplorable (at least on my benz). It's got that tiny little suction part right up under the hood, leads down the long tube to the filter (where 90% of the air passes through 20% of the filter based on the dirt patterns when I would inspect it), then down and around a u turn which flattens to the turbo.

I know the purpose of this circuitous route is to get out as much particulate matter as possible, but it really cuts back on power, and the air bracket clattering when the mounts go out really sucks too.