pulling the head... adventure in the making
 

My beatiful car is sick :(

Mon night, after testing out whether my vent temperature is any colder after tweaking ACC some more (disconnecting electrical plug going to the vacuum switchover valve that controls opening the "fresh air scoop" -- the "long strke" one), I pulled in the Albertson's parking lot and noticed curious vapors arising from under the hood, and a rich trail of coolant behind the car. Turned out the upper radiator hose popped off the radiator fitting. Somehow, I haven't noticed the actual event. I don't believe that engine has actually overheated immediately prior to that, it was running at about 105-110C, give or take, but I can't really be sure. From the shape of the trail, looks like the hose came off very shortly before I pulled into the parking lot. Anyway, after reattaching the hose, putting in about half-gallon of coolant and driving home, upon getting there I discovered that the coolant overflow tank is empty again :mad: Next morning I added coolant again, and drove the car a bit around the parking lot, and it does consume coolant (although at a progressively slower rate) Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be. So it looks like my oil and coolant are travelling along the same roads now, likely due to a failed head gasket. So much for showing off my black beauty at the GTG (the car's actually drivable, but with so much coolant in the oil I doubt it's a good idea).

So I'm going to pull the head off the engine and see what the actual damage is. Greg, Randy & Co lifted my spirits some by expressing a high degree of confidence that it's just the head gasket itself that's blown, there shouldn't be any significant damage to the cylinder block or the head itself. It's uncharacteristic for me to express optimism, but I'm really hoping for that to be the case, I like this car a lot.

This will be my first foray into the innards of an automotive engine, so I'm sure it'll be adventurous. The job doesn't look that bad from the description in the FSM, but I'm sure the actual experience will be quite different. A few questions for the experts:

1) Can one obtain the required double-hex socket in some local store (e.g. Sears), or is it necessary to buy the actual MB tool (617 589 00 10 00)?

2) I lack an engine hoist, so the head will have to be lifted through the means of a few guys pulling it up. How much does the head on a 617 weigh?

3) I know the importance of KISS, and baby steps, etc., but what else should I keep an eye open for "while I'm in there"? Not necessarily for an immediate action, but to know what shape the engine's in (and if something can be proactively fixed easily, why not do it now)? The engine's got a lot of blowby.

Thanks,

yuri

Well, first of all, I'm no expert at removing a 617 head.

But, I'm in the process of doing exactly what you are contemplating for the exact same reasons. The 617 uses coolant and the oil analysis shows antifreeze.

So, I'm taking it rather slow myself. Here is what I know to date:

1) I picked up a set of double hex sockets (Lisle) from a local autoparts store. They are a bit pricey ($17.00 for a set of 4). I understand that Poop Boys or Autozone may have a set for less money.

2) RWT recently did the head on the 617 and he lifted it without any assistance. Without anything attached, it's weight is about 75 lbs. Without a hoist, you will need to remove the manifolds and turbo prior to removing the head. In my case, I'm going to borrow a hoist and leave them on the head.

3) My personal recommendation is to spend the extra money and have the head done properly by a shop that knows this engine. I still need to find a suitable shop locally to me. There are shops throughout the country, but, I'd prefer to avoid the rather steep shipping cost.

With regard to the blowby, it is likely a situation caused by rings. If so, you would need to make a decision whether to go into the bottom end of the engine. This is a major decision and usually means pulling the engine. Of course, once you get it all apart, you are typically looking at some serious change to replace the worn components. You get into the "while I'm already in there" syndrome in a big way.

As I write this, I've got all the accessories off the head and need to remove both oil supply and drain lines. Then I'm ready to remove the valve cover and start with the chain.

The FSM is almost a necessity if you have never done this job before.

Send me a PM if you have any questions and I'll let you know what I have done with it.

Coolant in oil
 

Coolant is heaver than oil. Try cracking open the oil drain plug and see what comes out of the bottom of your oil pan.

What color was the oil? If it was still jet black, you prolly don't have water in the oil. Is water blowing out your tailpipe? I recommend more analysis before pulling the head--it does not really sound like you got the engine hot enough and long enough to blow the gasket.

The oil on the SD is jet black. There is no sign of any coolant in the oil.

But the coolant reservoir loses about a pint every 1000 miles and the oil analysis is positive for glycol and has sodium and potassium in elevated numbers.

Operation of the 617 in this condition is not recommended due to potential damage to the main and rod bearings.

If you wait until you can see coolant on the dipstick, you have waited far too long. :(

I was addressing Rurik more than you. If he suddenly lost more than 1/2 gallon of coolant into the oil, I think the oil would not be jet black. Also, his description of the event did not make me think he had overheated to the extent of blowing a headgasket. I simply recommended that he do more analysis before jerking off the head. I did not recommend that he drive the car without further investigation.

Of course, he may have a blown gasket, but why tear into an engine without more evidence?

A bare head on a 617 weighs 65 pounds. With the valves and drive gear, add about 15 more. Now would be a good time for a valve job.

Remember that when lifting the head you will probably be leaning over the fender. Put something that weighs 75 lbs. on your workbench, back up 2 to 3 ft. and try to lift it. A blown out back at any age is a real drag.

Good point to make...the fact its at an awkward position makes that harder to lift...find someone to help lift it out...

This is an iron head engine. It is almost impossible to blow one of these head gaskets by overheating, especially if it only got to 115 C.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Just see if there is coolant in oil or vice versa. If not, fix the cooling system, fill and be happy.

Good luck,

wrong diagnosis
 

you got the wrong diagnosis dude....

if your oil is jet black becasue of diesel ash and no water in the
oil then forget about the engine....

here is your problem...

1. the neck of the radiators is made of plastic.... it very easily cracks
and your has cracked on the under side and there is enough neck left that you are able to reattach the hose... but get out and watch it and you will see coolant trickling down under the neck....

you need a new radiator.....the reason this happened is because its gotten really hot and perhaps you thermostat is stuck closed or is not opening fully..

So first thing is to remove your thermost....

second buy a used radiator.... or try some jb weld... jb weld worked for me for a couple of months... while i was looking for a radiator...

If your head gasket is bad you might see water in your oil.... and if your head is bad you would be smoking... cause the valves would be letting oil into the cylinders.

I'm with Larry. I would be surprised if you messed up the head gasket.
I would make doggone sure you had a head gasket issue before pulling the head.

" Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be."-Rurik

Blueranger.... how does this fit into your diagnosis ?

oily
 

thin oil is not good but the water will collect at the bottom of the pan. i am with the postition of doing more research before tearing off the head. there are tests that can be done to verify what is happening.
1. as noted above let some oil out and put it in a glass jar. if there is water in it it will settle to the bottom overnight or sooner.
2. after the hose broke he could have a void in the system of air trapped under the thermostat. it is normal to need to add coolant after it is warm enough to open the stat.
3. the iron heads are indeed tough and will run for some time wo any water without damage (dont try it though).
4. the radiator can also be pressure tested. this is much cheaper than buying one and trying it out.

step #1 is the most important.

You lucky SOB. I wish I had seen those first...

I found myself needing these more and more recently so I bought the 10 and 12mm triple square sockets from Snap-off. Cost me about $25-30 each in 1/2" drive.

For the head though, I'd go with the Hazet tool (the 617 p/n you mentioned in post #1). A long shaft on the tool is needed to access the bolts along the cam towers on some 617 engines. The snap on stuff just won't fit it.

If you still want another reason to pull the head off, check the rear of the head, its probably seeping oil. All 3 of mine are :)