Starter Problems AGAIN ??????
 

Good evening gentleman
I was at the mall tonight waiting for my wife when I had to move my car a little closer to the main door.After shutting the engine off for a few minutes I tried to restart it again and NOTHING!No engine turning over at all.I was able to fit under the car to gently tap on the bendix and starter thinking maybe it was the problem but again NOTHING. There is no clicking that i could hear or anything else.I have plenty of juice in the battery because all the lights come on including the glow plug light etc etc.I have also tried it in neutral thinking it could have been the neutral switch but again NOTHING
1983 300 SD


What may of gone wrong???:confused:

Check the three terminal block on the right front wheel well under the hood. There is connections there for the starter and the power for the car comes from there. Check that the terminals are clean. You can also activate the starter from there. Jump from the heavy wire to the smaller one. The starter should engage. This will tell you if the starter is good or not. If the starter works from there but not at the key, Either the neutral safety switch or the key switch failed. You might need a "Hard Start" relay.

From witch wires do i need to attemp a jump start.I know the large red one is to be used,but witch other one should I jump from?

Jump from one of the large screws to the small screw and it should turn over.

Ok I did that and all i hear is a clicking noise from the glow plug wiring box on the left fender.Now i had a spare box like this and i did replace it but i have the same problem.Could it be the starter is fried???

Guy's
Is there a way to do a bench test on a starter and how do we go along doing this?
I was able to remove the starter on my 1983 300 SD with out much problems...Did have to remove the exhaust pipe at the exit of the turbo and the rear cross member to be able to retrieve the starter itself.All in all about 1.0 hour
Regards
Dan

You could bench test it by hooking it up to a known good battery and see if it spins. Just use some ratchet straps or something to hold it down. If its working it will twist and bounce from the torque. Not a perfect test since it wont be under load but it will test the bendix for you which is the part thats more than likely bad if you get no noise from it.

Why not just "bench test" it in the car by hooking it directly to the battery? This will by-pass everything else and tell you if the starter works, and if it's capable of spinning the engine. Use caution, and double check that the car is in park because you will be bypassing the neutral safety switch (don't ask why I mentioned this :o ).

He mentioned he already removed the starter. Should really test it before he reinstalls it in case its no good.

I don't know of any parts houses these days that won't do a free proper test of a starter or alternator or generator....

Ok guy's this is the result of my bench test.
I connected a cable from the small screw on the selenoid and put the other end on the positive of the battery,the other cable was a ground.What happend was the small wheel with teeth on them in the starter came out and went back in when i would remove the cable...Is this what is suppose to happen?I was expecting the stater to kick more then that...Someone help me here im only a novice at this.
regards
Dan

that is what is supposed to happen for what you did, although all you did was tested the solenoid. This means you know now that the solenoid is good.

Now you need to test the actual starter motor... to do this you need some heavy cable to go from the back of solenoid (large screw terminals) and still the smaller wire to trip the solenoid and test the starter.

Kool
give me a few moments and Ill be right back with the results!

Ok
I did exactly what you said and the starter motor engaged and was spinning very fast.So i guess now my problems is somewhere else...What about the nutral switch? Could this be the problem and if so where is it located?

well, you have got to make sure all your connections are clean when you put the starter back on.

Your right... if your not hearing clicking or anything the NSS could be the culprit.

I agree with motorhead about the wiring may be so old that it can not flow enough amperage to operate the solenoid.

Put the starter back on and report back.

Im not 100% sure this applies to the MB starter as I have never taken one apart. However, often times the current is applied to the starter motor itself as a result of the solenoid coming forward. There are heavy contacts in the back of the solenoid that close then the solenoid goes out. It sounds to be line the solenoid is working ok, and the motor is working ok, but those contacts in the back of the solenoid are broken. You'll know for sure when you reinstall it I guess, but i bet thats whats busted. I have seen it happen many times on 6.2 diesels.

I will put the starter back in place and make sure the connections are clean and healthy...
But if it is the nutral switch where would it be? Does anyone have a picture maybe so i can locate it.
Regards
Dan

Ok guy's I think for now this will be the last update.
I have finished putting the starter back in place...and guess what.The engine fired up again like nothing had ever happend:wacko: .So I suspect the the solenoid and or the starter motor itself are a bit tired;) .Lets not forget the fact that this car is 23 years old and it has given a few starts in its life time.
So when this thursday comes around I will R/R it again and have it redone by a specialist.
Again I want to thank the room for all the wise advice and I will keep you all posted.
Best Regards to all:)
Dan

Ok guy's
The latest update....
Well yesterday I had the old starter refurbish,they replaced all the brushe's and they also replaced the solenoid that was very weak.Did several tests on there bench and everything was looking good until....This morning after work i started to re install the starter and when I was finaly done I had the engine turn over...It was great, it started I would say four maybe five times...Then the same Damn problem again....NOTHING!:mad: :mad:
So thats where it ended for today.I have no idea what went wrong.I tryed to jump start it via the wires on the R/H fender but again NOTHING!:mad:
Whats next guy's?
Im getting tired of this.
Looking forward for your wise adivice...
Regards
Dan

Hmmm. You said you started and stopped it 4 or 5 times? How long did you wait in between? These starters get real hot when turning. If you stopped and started it 4 or 5 times in rapid succession you may have hurt something. Also, I didnt see you list a rewound armature in that list of things they rebuilt. If you have a short in there it very often only shows when hot, especialy at first. If they didnt rewind the original or replace it you may very well still have a bad starter.

No I started the car four or five times in a period of about 2 hours or so.
Im not sure what they did exactly to the starter.All i know is they replaced the brushes had to do a special weld to them because it was a diesel starter and they also replaced the solenoid and they did a bench test while i was there.

Try pushing forward on the gear selection lever when it is in park. I believe that can give the safety switch an extra nudge.

Today I removed the junction box and cleaned all the wire connections,and the junction box too...Made sure all the wires are not cut or damaged and all is ok.So i think the next step is to remove the starter motor again and bring it back to the shop that rebuilt it to have checkd again.
One day at a time guy's ..lol

Sadly I think you have a bad winding in the starter. In my 300D i went through this and had the starter in and out 3 times. It stinks, but once you get a good one in there you should be good for a long time wth it. I dont think I would waste too much time on the neutral swith since you said you couldnt get it spinning by jumping it directly either. Yank it back out and explain to the starter rebuilder that the issue only shows up when the starter is hot.

BEFORE you remove the starter again, try HOLDING the key in the START position and S-L-O-W-L-Y move the shifter in the PARK position and then try the NEUTRAL position. If it still won't start at the key, try the under-the-hood method to work the starter. If the starter works every time, then you need to install a Hard Start Relay.

Here is a quote from his earlier post:

"I tryed to jump start it via the wires on the R/H fender but again NOTHING!"

Why does everyone keep telling him to check the neutral switch?

Endust, You ARE right.... Trying to engage the starter at the 3 screw terminal block bypasses the neutral safety switch. I didn't read ALL of the earlier posts and wanted to give him all ideas to check. In having his starter rebuilt at a shop, hopefully they did a growler test on the armature. I had a "dead spot" armature on my wifes old '84 300TD. I replaced the armature. I want him to recheck the starting AFTER the rebuild to see if it is still dead at the terminal block. I wonder if he could have a bad ground between the engine and chassis.

Search.
 

I had exactly the same problem a few months back. Search, and you'll find the thread. Try replacing the "S" wire from the bus bar to the solenoid.

Jay.

Good evening friends.
Well I have done the starting thing at the junction box on the R/H fender.Have tried so many times in nutral...in park and then some.I even installed temporary wires overiding the ones in the junction box to see if anything would happen,but no out of luck there too.
Now I have a few questions for you all.
1= When a relay is defective does it still make a clicking noise or not?
( I'm talking about the relay noise I hear in the dash board behind the radio when I turn the ignition key just before starting the engine)
2= What is a HOT BOX? And where is it? Is it the box on the L/H fender where all the wires going to the glow plugs are?

Again I thank you all for your support and guidance.
Regards
Dan
Vancouver BC

I know this maybe a dumb question but did you check your battery cables and battery post to clamp connections? Are they clean? Check the connection where the NEGATIVE cable grounds to the body.

Humor me and take a battery jumper cable and connect it to the negative post of the battery and then connect the other end to a GOOD grounding spot on the engine. Try the starter. This tells us if the engine is grounded with the chassis.

With the car jacked up WITH stands set, try the starter from under the car by jumping from the big battery connection on the solenoid to the small stud on the solenoid where the key switch wire connects. If it doesn't work then, the only thing that it could be is the starter.

Are you ever hearing the starter solenoid click even when the starter motor doesn't turn?

Call the shop that rebuilt the starter and ask if they thoroughy tested the armature AND commutator on the armature. there COULD be a dead segment on the commutator.

This has been a stumper!!! Let us know what you find!!

Thank you my friend.
I will do this tonight when I return from work and I will surely let you know what the final results are.
By the way yesterday I spoke to the tech who rebuilt the starter and he told me that if I could get the car started and bring it to hinm he would have a look at it.So i need to get the bomb on the run ASAP ...lol
Regards
Dan

I will keep you all posted very soon!

I dont know if you have checked this or not but I will add my 2 cents - I had a similar problem which turned out to be the engine grounding strap. After 20 odd years of vibration the thing eventually broke down to the point of extreme resistance. Here is a quick check - hook a set of jumper cables to the battery negitive and the engine block while you are having the problem - may give you a easy solution

Breckman99, Where on the car did you find the chassis to engine ground strap? Chris

I think the grounding strap is close to the starter. And that's a very good thing to check, I was gonna post to check that, but I got beaten to the punch.

Marty

It is located very near the starter. From the frame to one of the tranny to engine mounts. Just a heavy piece of flat braided cable. Mine had failed at each crimp connection. I replaced it with a piece of 0 GA cable and soldered each connector. Works like a charm.
Check out this link for a picture:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25535&d=1114060154

Well my friends...
After performing all the tests that you folks suggested the problem still persists..
So tonight I removed it ONE more time and hopefully it will be the last time:rolleyes:
Tomorow its on its way to the same repair shop and lets wait and see what happens next to the saga of the 300SD Starter..
Regards Gentleman
Dan

Well Dan.... You have been quite a trooper trying to solve this problem. Lets hope that the starter IS the problem. Let us know.

Latest Update

Well thank God its friday...:D
Still no news yet on my tech doing work on the starter,but I did go and buy a new ground wire gauge(0) to go between the satter bolt and frame,and even though at this point I have no idea what went wrong,I'm still putting all the chances left on my side.
Next update comming to your screen very soon.:anxious: :vbac47679
Best regards to all
Dan
Vancouver,Canada

The Saga of the 300 SD starter is now OVER!:D

I got the starter back from the shop today and within 45 minutes it was in and she was on the road again!
This was the tech explanation on what had happen the second time.
There is a special welding that needs to be done when they replace the brushes on these staters being that its a diesel,but it wasnt done properly and it broke making the car inoperable,at the same time i had a new ground wire made to put between the starter and the frame.
All is done now and I'm very happy to say the least!;)
I want to thank each and everyone of you for your support and guidance in this saga..
Best Regards to all.
Dan
Vancouver BC

Dan, Glad to hear that the problem was solved. What the rebuilder was talking about is that the brush pigtail is spot welded to the field windings AND the brush plate.

Well my friends its been almost two weeks now and all is well!
The reman starter never missed a beat yet.
The only funny thing that I have noticed is that the glow plug light doesnt come on anymore since I have r/r the starter.
I'll have a look at that some other day.
All is good folk's
Best regards
Dan :D
Vancouver
Canada

Having the same #@*$&ing problem, want to confirm the checklist.
 

Am experiencing all the same fun and excitement Vancouver Dan did. Not feeling positively predisposed towards German engineering right now. :fork_off:

Here's what's happening so far:
Replaced starter - 2/06
Replaced alternator - 7/06

Started having this problem around 7/06 (before and after alternator replacement.)
Battery terminals clean. terminal block clean, but those wires look raggedy.

Having same symptoms Dan did. Starts fine 20 times. Nothing at all the 21st time. Just a clicking behind the radio. Walk away for 20 minutes. Starts fine. (Until yesterday. Just wouldn't go.) Have checked every connection I can see. Look good and clean and snug. Had the beast ('85 300TD) towed to the shop yesterday. (Ignominious defeat, I know.):(
Last time I sent her there, my mechanics said, "We have no idea what you're talking about. The car starts every time." (At least they didn't charge me.) But this time, I suspect they'll experience the wonderfulness of turning the key and hearing an impotent click. Then, they'll be as baffled as we have been. But together, you guys solved Dan's problem. Or at least talked him off the ledge while he solved it himself.
Anyway.
I want to make sure I give my guys clear instructions. Would y'all look this list over and see if it makes sense? Thanks in advance...

Step 1: Check three-terminal block is clean. (looked good to me.)

Step 2: Activate the starter from three-terminal block. Jump from the heavy wire to the smaller one. The starter should engage. This will show if the starter is good or not. (Since the starter was replaced in February, I'd be surprised - but not shocked - if it were the culprit.)

Step 3: "bench test" it in the car by hooking it directly to the battery. (Seems logical...)

Step 4: If it passes step 3 - it could be the mysterious Neutral Safety Switch, yes? Remove/Replace, or just remove? Where is it, anyway?
And this hard-start relay you've spoken of. This sounds very interesting. Would love more info if anyone has it.

Step 5: Try replacing the "S" wire from the bus bar to the solenoid. I think this is new, too. But if not, will try it.

Step 6: Check engine grounding strap. This can be done by running a jumper cable from negative post to good spot on engine, then attempting to start car(?)

And finally...

Step 7: Yank the @($*ing starter out, have it taken apart and make sure the brush pigtail is spot welded to the field windings AND the brush plate.

Sound right? Did I forget anything?
I thank you all for your kind assistance.

This has been a great thread; I learned a lot from reading it. I'm usually all in favor of rebuilding rather than replacing, but given the problems seen here, would replacing the starter with a new or rebuilt one be the better choice? Phil has Bosch rebuilt starters for my car for a little over $200. I'd rather take out the starter, put in a replacement, and be done with it. Not as entertaining, but I wonder how Vancouver Dan feels about it?

top - help!
 

Talk to me...

"Step 1: Check three-terminal block is clean. (looked good to me.)" QUOTE

Remove each terminal separately and clean the conducting surfaces on each wire AND the terminal strip. If this doesn't work then you need a hard start relay. Your SD will be easy to install one on it.

THANKS for your reply.
First it's a TD, not an SD. Does that matter?

Second, what, exactly is a "hard start relay?" It sounds like a direct switch from battery to starter. Yes? No?

Third, I had a brief convo with the garage this morning, there was some talk that they thought I had a bad solenoid. TRANSLATION - "We have no freakin' idea." (Remember, the starter is only 8 months old.)
Any thoughts on how to get them to think more critically? I faxed a version of my "checklist" over this morning...

Now they're thinking it's the relay.
@(#*$P@!!!!
I already replaced the relay. Helped for about 2 weeks. Then, stranded me again. How can I get them to listen to reason!?:fork_off:

I see you have replaced most if not all of the important electrical components.
You need to remember one thing here ....I had two problems with this starter.First the brushes were completely worn out,second I suspect that the ground wire between the stater and sub frame was faulty.Even though it may look ok at first sight I would replace it because the cost alone of this cable is so inexpensive,making it well worth the replacement.Now on the issue of replacing or having the starter rebuilt,I would go with the latter.Its much cheeper then a reman one.These starters are built very strong and are there for the long haul.If it is rebuilt correctly it will last just as long if not longer then a reman one at more then half the price.
But this is my opinion only,
Best regards to all
Dan
Vancouver BC

I got them to promise to look at the ground strap yesterday. If they did, I'll be...placated. Not satisfied;) but placated. Thanks for checking in.

You can check to see if its the ground strap yourself. Mine was showing some odd symptoms, start would just click, jumpy gauges, ect. It was recommended to me to check the main grounding strap but I was afraid to loosen one of the bolts that mates the engine and transmission so I added an extra grounding cable from where the air cleaner bracked attached to the engine to where the battery grounds out on the body. It was meant to be a temporary fix but its worked so good its been there for over a year now.