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  #1  
Old 04-10-2007, 11:28 AM
don-vee's Avatar
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The newbiest newbie-intro and lots o' questions!

Hey, my name is Don, I am not currently a MB owner but hope to be very soon. I am a hot rodder by nature, and have been doing some thinking on the future of it, with the gas prices the way they are. I guess hot rodding and environmentalism don't usually go hand-in-hand, but I'm gonna try to go against the grain. Please excuse me if I ruffle some feathers, but here's what I plan on doing. Basically, I am going to use a MB diesel for the powerplant in my next rod. It's a 31 Dodge, sitting on a Model A frame, cut into a chopped roadster pickup. I was thinking a 60s or 70s 4 cylinder diesel, along with the fuel system, trans, and rear, will all go into this with very little trouble, and with the light weight of the roadster, probably provide pretty adequate acceleration along with spectacular mileage. So, have I pissed off anyone yet?
Anyway, since I'm very new to the world of Mercedes diesels, I could probably use a quickie tutorial, like what problems I may encounter, what other parts I'll need to strip from the donor car, what the weight of the engine is, etc. I'm sure it's not as heavy as your average smallblock Chevy/Ford/Mopar V8, am I correct?
Once again, I apologize for coming on here and sounding like a total beginner. I'm not a beginner with mechanics, I have built more cars in my years than I can count, I just never messed with diesels, and this seemed like the best resource. Thanks to everyone who can help me out!

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  #2  
Old 04-10-2007, 11:40 AM
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There are a lot of posts around about putting a 617 engine(70's-80's diesel) into Jeeps and old Land Rovers.

You'll find all the info you need.

A shout out to to W-B PA, my gf is from there and I always enjoy visiting the area. I have seen a lot of rusted out benzes for sale in the area - you should be able to find one with a good drive line.

dd
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  #3  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:09 PM
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Do a search for the Finns, you'll get some good tire-smokin' videos and stuff to get you excited about the idea.

The later (mid-'80s) 5 and 6cylinder (602 and 603/606 respectively) are a more modern and powerful engine, and lighter due to more modern casting methods and alumunum. Depends also on what you want to spend.

The 3.0liter 603 turbo-six is a good engine and not too hard to find, watch for cracked heads (threads, search for number 14 head), the 3.5liter version of this engine is known as the "rod bender", can search for that also, not as good a candidate to hot-rod for that reason, and the later 606 version (turbod in '98) seems to be the best although harder to find and more $$, the Finns have dyno curves on their website around 450hp on that engine and close to that on the 603, would make for one smokin' hot-rod engine (literally).

Have fun, keep us in the loop.

You might look for a parts car, you can pick away at the parts until you have everything you need then, otherwise "oops, need one of those too" will getcha. The '80s 602 and 603 are essentially non-electronic engines, will run completely without 12v, although idle control is electronic it isn't required to run, just to idle well. The '90s version of that engine is a little more electronic although can be back-dated.

And sorry, we don't get "pissed off" unless you start a synthetic vs dino oil thread LOL!!
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:37 PM
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And here it is posting #40 in this thread, the finns:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=183791&page=3
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  #5  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:38 PM
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Diesel street rodding, Cool!

Hi Don!
That sounds like a really cool project. The only stumbling block I see is the actual drive shaft because MB uses rubber flex discs rather than the universal joints rodders are used to. These discs work very well on MB cars because the rear end is independant, and the differential is bolted to a sub frame, ie, there is no movement between the rear and the tranny. I don't think they would survive very long if they had to really bend like a u-joint does. Don't let me discourage you though! I'm sure a solution can be found.

I've been thinking along the same lines on building a Mileage Monger. I have an 82 Mazda RX-7 (the one that looks like a 280Z, but by Mazda) that I'm just itching to put a MB diesel into. The car is light, has excellent aerodynamics, and the engine is definitly getting pretty tired.

I look at the mileage that engine produces in my 240D (32-37 MPG) and think wow, what if that little engine was lugging around a car that weighed half as much, had 1/3 the frontal area and a .34 drag coefficient?!!! That would ROCK!

Anyway, You'll find an amazing amount of helpfull, knowledgable people here, so just ask. Someone will have an answer.

Cheers, Chris
Turbo (no it didn't come that way!) 240D running Biodiesel when I can.
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  #6  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:41 PM
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If you are seeking good fuel milage your choice of earlier mercedes diesels is a little limited. Seems the post mid 80s engines generate more power and fuel milage plus are quite a bit quieter. I think the 5 cylinder engine pre 86 weighs in at 800 lbs and the pre 84 240d at perhaps 600 lbs. Combined milage and performance just means newer engines in my opinion. You will probably have to suffer some electronics to get what you want if diesel.
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  #7  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:52 PM
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Yeah, I definitely wanted to avoid dealing with electronics where possible. As for noise, that's definitely not my concern. I plan on running open headers, and I'm definitely not building a nice street rod, just a flat black rat, scary looking and fun, the way it oughtta be. The driveshaft should be able to be dealt with, I weld, and I'm sure I can come up with a driveshaft that'll work. I was also kicking around the idea of the 5-cyl, they seem to be even more plentiful, and the idea of 5 straight zoomie pipes sticking out of the side kinda makes me go wheeeeeeeeee.....
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2007, 01:25 PM
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kinda hard to use a turbo with 5 zoomies.... and without a turbo it will be very slow...
John
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My drivers:
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1987 190D 2.5Turbo
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2007, 03:20 PM
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om 601

The om 601 (1984 190D) will be lighter and with the 5 speed ,lightweight vehicle will probably perform adequately. No electronics to worry about. The best engine for a "street rod" would likely be the 2.5 turbo from 1987 but not likely to find many of these around. You are into a project that more than a few probably dream about around here. Please post pics/ details if you take this journey.

Kevin
1979 240D
1984 190D
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2007, 03:28 PM
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Yeah, as weird as it seems, I'm not too concerned with power, either. If I feel the need for speed, I'll hop in my 67 Barracuda or my drag bug. My main concern is to build something kool lookin, with true hot-rodding ingenuity, using almost all junkyard parts, that will be a reliable daily driver and get excellent mileage. For simplicity's sake, I don't think I wanna go with a turbo.
Which leads me to a quick couple questions:

1. Are turbo and non-turbo engines the same? If I found one that was a turbo, would it be the same engine if I removed the turbo?

2. Is the 4 cylinder in a 190D the same as the 240D?

3. Are there any good websites out there that have engine info, like diagrams and weight/size?

You people rock, thanks for welcoming me.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2007, 04:01 PM
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I hope you are not using original model t/a brakes! my model A is a bear to stop from 45mph, I hate to see it with 67HP and 120lb torque! now that I think about it, the straight gears in the diff ought to be upgraded too!
John
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2007, 04:17 PM
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1. Are turbo and non-turbo engines the same? If I found one that was a turbo, would it be the same engine if I removed the turbo?

No, the turbo engines are "beefed up". If you removed the turbo it would need a non-turbo injection pump, but would then be just a overdesigned non-turbo engine

2. Is the 4 cylinder in a 190D the same as the 240D?

no

If you want speed I would go with a 602, 603 or 606, if you want simplicity (and a more "vintage" looking engine), go with a 616 or 617.
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:49 PM
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Haha, no, I'm not using original A-bone brakes! I was intending on using the Mercedes rear out of whatever donor car I get, provided it fits ok. Up front I am using a drilled straight-axle out of a Dodge A100 with a transverse leaf, and of course an adjustable proportioning valve to balance things out. I think I'll probably go with the 616 or 617 engine like you said, what did they come in? Man, ain't I all full of questions?
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2007, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don-vee View Post
Haha, no, I'm not using original A-bone brakes! I was intending on using the Mercedes rear out of whatever donor car I get, provided it fits ok. Up front I am using a drilled straight-axle out of a Dodge A100 with a transverse leaf, and of course an adjustable proportioning valve to balance things out. I think I'll probably go with the 616 or 617 engine like you said, what did they come in? Man, ain't I all full of questions?
Hey Don,

Welcome to the forum and great project idea! It brings me back to when I was younger working for a bodyshop and help build ’32, ‘37, and ’40 Ford streetrods (real steel bodies with wood frames - not fiberglass) and a ’48 Studebaker. These cars would be “different” if they had diesels instead of the typical small block Chevy or Ford. Especially if they ran on vegetable oil!

But here is my question… Since the donor Mercedes rear will most likely be independent, why put a straight axle of front. Why not an IFS? (Mustang II aftermarket type?)

Richard


BTW – here is some info that might be handy to you.


Non-Turbo Motors

1977-1983 240D W123 Chassis OM616.912 2.4L 4 cylinder.
1977-1981 300D W123 Chassis OM617.912 3.0L 5 cylinder.
1977-1981 300CD (Coupe) W123 Chassis OM617.912 3.0L 5 cylinder.
1978-1980 300TD (Wagon) W123 Chassis OM617.912 3.0L 5 cylinder.

1984-1986 190D 2.2: W201 chassis, OM601.911 4 cylinder aluminum head.
1987-1989 190D 2.5: W201 chassis, OM602.921 5 cylinder aluminum head.

Turbo Motors

1978-1980 300SD W116 Chassis OM617.950 3.0L 5 cylinder.
1981-1985 300SD W126 Chassis OM617.950 3.0L 5 cylinder.

1982-1985 300D W123 Chassis OM617.952 3.0L 5 cylinder.
1982-1985 300CD (Coupe) W123 Chassis OM617.952 3.0L 5 cylinder.
1981-1985 300TD (Wagon) W123 Chassis OM617.952 3.0L 5 cylinder.

1987 190D 2.5 Turbo: W201 Chassis OM602.961 2.5L 5 cylinder aluminum head.

1986-1987 300SD: W126 Chassis OM603.961.3.0L 6 cylinder Aluminum head.
1986-1987 300SDL: W126 Chassis OM603.961.3.0L 6 cylinder Aluminum head.
1990-1991 350SDL: W126 Chassis OM603.970 3.5L 6 cylinder Aluminum head. ”Rod Bender”

1987 300D: W124 Chassis OM603.960 3.0L 6 cylinder Aluminum head.
1987 300TD: W124 (Wagon) Chassis OM603.960 3.0L 6 cylinder Aluminum head.
1990-1993 300D 2.5: W124 Chassis OM602.962 2.5L 5 cylinder Aluminum head.
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  #15  
Old 04-10-2007, 08:18 PM
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Hmm, ya know what? It never occurred to me about the independent rear suspension. I guess I automatically figured an older MB had a straight axle rear. Anyway, if it doesn't, I'm still sticking with old school, I have a bunch of rears laying around, one of 'em should work! The reason I'm going with the straight axle front is twofold-it's kool looking, and it happens to be what I have on hand.

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