After doing a valve job the other day on an 87 300SDL, I noticed some unusual scoring on one of the cylinder bores. Since I'm planning on doing some head work on my own car next month, I was curious if anyone had ever removed a liner from an engine in the car.

The factory method of a complete engine teardown for the replacement of a single faulty or questionable liner seems insane. Certainly there must be someone out there who has removed one of these liners by dropping the pan, removing the piston and con rod, and extracting the liner from above. I realize that the factory tool might not work but making a special puller, then shrinking and extracting the liner certainly would seem possible. I have enough professional experience and a spare parts engine to serve as a guinea pig, so I'm willing to give this a whirl if there's any chance of success.

'Are you talking about removing the cylinder liner(s) with the crankshaft still
in the block?

GOOD LUCK! (NON-: Georgia Tech,Virginia Tech,M.I.T.,Sanford,Etc.,Etc.
engineering) Hey, I'm not saying it's not dooable;BUT, Einstein will, in Absentia, have some Royal somewhere Knight you !

PLEASE ! contact me with the results !

unless you have a serious hammer or something under that car, your going to have a hell of a time getting those, pressed in liners.

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Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

As long as they would add one additional commandment for you to keep thy religion to thyself.
George Carlin (Wonder where he is now..)

1981 240d (engine donor 1983 240d) recently rebuilt engine hurray! - No more.. fought a tree and the tree won.

pearl black 1983 240d 4speed (Converted!@$$%) atleast the tranny was rebuilt.

I can only comment on how it is done on other diesels not Mercedes.

Liner pullers are usually made to match specific engines; so if you plan to make something be advised it has to have good fit and good alignment.

One type of liner puller consist of 2 metal plates witha big thick piece of rubber between the and a threaded rod going through the center to tighten the 2 discs and squeeses the rubber against the inner bore of the liner. A slide hammer is attatchd to the threaded road and hopefully the liner is slidehammered out. It is best to degrease the bore of the liner with brake cleaner and the rubber also needs to be kept dry. This type of puller usually only works on liners that are slip fit into the cylinder or "wet" type liners.

The more common type consist of a heavy plate that is machined to fit the bottom lip of the liner (it has to be a good fit and not be wide enough to score the bore of the block as the liner is comming out). There is a long heavy metal rod through the center of the plate that extends up and past the surface of the block. On top of the block is a metal tube (or a special frame work) larger than the liner diameter that is high enough for the liner to come completely out of the block.
(The place I worked at the just bought a couple sections of heavy tubing/pipe large enough for the liner to fit through and had them and the bottom plates sent to a machine shop. The used a metal beam that bridged the top of the tube, drilled for the alltread rod that attatch to the bottom plate and you turned a nut to pull the liner out.)
That is what I have seen used on Detroit diesel and Cummings engines. Except that Detroit diesels also have a liner puller that can go into the ports on the cylinder.
Back in the day there also was places that rented liner puller for trucks. Fore Mercedes???
It might be that a puller for Ford tractors or Perkins engins might work.

It can't be done. It needs to be pressed into and out of the engine and it has to be machined to match the piston diameter while installed in the engine.

They already did it at the trade school I went to back in 1975. The liner puller.



The portable engine boring bar with electromagnetic base that attaches to the block..


They also have tools to press liners in but you would probably have to tow the car to the shop to have the liner bored to fit your piston.

Forced induction is correct. Even if it were possible to pull the liner from above, it has to be bored to match the piston and the top has to be milled off to be flush with the block. The most you could do with it in the block perhaps is a little honing to clean up the bore.

The only way to do it is to pull the motor and strip the motor.

The force required to push out the liners is incredible. I have personally done mine at my favorite machinist's shop. We use a 30 ton hydraulic press. When you are pushing it, enough force is created that you actually feel the block flexing and wonder if it will break on each liner.

Tom W

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Wow.

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Bill

Backyard Shadetree Mechanic, 30 years running.

1987 300TD
1988 300E (sold, sniff)
1999 S320
1981 Volkswagen Rabbit Truck (Diesel)
2001 Ford Expedition
1988 Suzuki Samurai
On my list to buy: R129, for me, and a R107 for my wife.

If this is so wouldn’t it be possible for a patient person to get a die grinder and a carbide bur at grind a groove the length of the liner and relieve all of that tension holding it in. You would not have to grind all the way through. If you took the time to do it to both sides it would even be easier to get out. (my problem would be fitting my hands in the bore; but they do have long die grinders.)
When the liner is installed you take a large draw file and file it down close to the block as you can.
After that you take a lapping plate and lap it down the rest of the way until it is flush with the block.
Skilled people are doing this sort of thing every day in shipyards around the world and where machinery cannot yanked out and brought somewhere to be fixed or is too large to do so.
Is the job he had in mind worth all that trouble. I don’t think so. I is easier and takes much less skill to pull out the engine and have the job done in the normal fashion.

Another method I've heard about (but have not tried) is to weld a bead along the length of the sleeve. The contraction is suppose to shrink and loosen the sleeve so it can be pulled out easily.

As far as installing, I agree with the others that the top of the sleeve must be milled even with the block, and honed to fit the piston, at least on Mercedes diesels of this vintage. Other brands of engines are not the same and the sleeves can sometimes be pressed in without further machining, especially wet sleeves. Usually if the sleeve needs replaced, the engine is due for a complete rebuild anyway.

This idea, works wonders run a bead along the center of the cylinder and it will contracts and makes the diameter smaller just by a fraction, but thats all you need to pull it out.

__________________
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

As long as they would add one additional commandment for you to keep thy religion to thyself.
George Carlin (Wonder where he is now..)

1981 240d (engine donor 1983 240d) recently rebuilt engine hurray! - No more.. fought a tree and the tree won.

pearl black 1983 240d 4speed (Converted!@$$%) atleast the tranny was rebuilt.

I dunno...

I think the question would be which is the most time/cost effective approach.

I had a large diesel powered boat that had some engine issues (Cummins) created by a broken oil supply line. To fix it meant to either do the work with the engine in place or to remove the flybridge, the galley and salon to gain access to the engine room.

They came in with portable equipment to not just bore a cylinder, but also turned the crank.

So the tools must exist.

__________________
1980 300TD-T (82 Turbo and Trans) 159,000 Miles "Jackie-O"
1983 300SD 272,000 Miles "Aristotle"
1987 Jeep Wagoneer Limited - keeps the MB's off the ice and out of the snow
1994 BMW 530it

Yeah but not for our little engines. To re sleeve one of these you have to send it to a machine shop. Its probably not worth it, do they sell oversized pistons? Can you just bore it out?

The cheapest solution is to buy a used motor, they go up in price from their.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I may be totally off here, but one method which i have heard about for pulling the sleeve from bellow is to fabricate a plate with exact diameter of the piston, then weld it along the bottom of the sleeve and bore a hole in it to pump grease in you can put around 10-15 tons of pressure on that sleeve, but theres a catch, the hydraulic pressure will also be pushing the sleeve against the wall of the block cleating more friction. i had a dodge intrepid which i used this method to free the seized piston with i screwed a grease gun hose into the spark plug hole in the cylinder head and pumped away at it. it unstuck that piston AND managed to unstick two more pistons at the cost of warping the crankshaft badly. LOL

WOW...You guys are terrific! I had no idea this posting would generate such response.

I used to remove Alfa Romeo wet liners on a regular basis in the course of major rebuilds and a few times in the car. We were lucky to own some very high quality factory tools consisting of thick case hardened discs with machined steps and a tempered fine threaded shafts that applied pressure from the center. I hardly ever used them once I learned a few time saving tricks. These liners were also unbelievably tight, requiring massive forces, the special tools and tons of time. On the other hand, if the raw block was placed on the floor, then carefully and uniformly heated with say an oil fired salamander they would almost always drop out on their own accord like magic. Although I have not held a Mercedes liner in my hand, there are two major differences that come to mind. The Alfa blocks were all aluminum and the liners were much thicker. Before every engine rebuild after the liners were removed, the blocks were hot tanked tanked and given an align bore check by my trusted machinist. Not once was a block ever warped using this method but I'll spare you the details about the consequences of using other methods, especially the hydraulic press.

On a number of very rare vintage blocks which had often been left outside or obtained from old seized motors, liners were virtually welded to the blocks due to water, rust, and galvanic action. When original piston-liner sets were not available, used liners could often be bored by a competent machine shop to match 1st or 2nd piston oversizes. Trashed liners would always have to be painstakingly extracted using any number of methods. These included running a die grinder along the length of the bore, applying uniform heat to the block, chilling the liners with compressed air or nitrogen, selective fracturing of the cast liner, working penetrating oil into the press fit area, etc. Another important trick I learned along the way was to always favor using any method to pull the male member of the press fit into the female member as opposed to pressing. This runs counter to most procedures since it is often not possible, however, on liners this can be theoretically accomplished during extraction, which is always far more difficult than insertion. As some of you mentioned, removing liners using a hydraulic press will usually require massive pressing forces since the male member tends to mushroom.

Although there were some opinions voiced about the need to bore and surface plane Benz liners after press fitting, this was never required on other engines I encountered although it is commonly addressed in most good factory workshop manuals. According to references in the service bulletins from MB's OE supplier, Kolbenschmidt (KS) , each piston liner assembly contains the required shim/sealing ring to assure proper deck height. I would assume that when these piston/liner sets are installed into bare blocks additional machining would not be necessary. This situation could change if dirt, corrosion, incorrect seals, or imperfect press fits alter these dimensions.

Now for all the if's, and's and but's that could make or break the feasibility of this operation. Assuming you have a spare block with liners and a pair of well machined and oil quenched (hardened) upper and lower threaded plates, would it not be possible to heat the block and extract the liners without deforming or marring the bore?

If so,you might be able to salvage several usable liners and pistons during the process of a complete rebuild or teardown. These of course would be standard bores and would match the mating pistons exactly or for that matter any other used piston from the piston class designated by the factory stamping on the block. Hypothetically, if the bore tolerances were ok, these could be ridge reamed, honed and used with matching pistons after installing fresh rings and could always be used as individual substitutes in an emergency ie:cracked rings, liner cavitation, piston defects, etc (BTW, I have a spare motor sitting in the shop that meets this description thanks to some guy who overheated his 603 engine ruining the ring tension but showing a decent bore) We all realize that there are new liners as well as piston/liner sets, but let's ignore this fact for the time being, since it will only compound other variables such as differing bore tolerances, piston weight variations, etc.

Now, one day we yank the head on our car for a gasket replacement only to find the dreaded sight of a single liner with deep vertical scoring, most likely the result of broken rings and the hidden cause of irritating blowby and oil consumption. What would you guys do in a situation like this?

Since the liner is history and other alternatives range from risky gambles to outrageous amounts of time and money, wouldn't it be dandy to have the option of dropping the pan, removing the piston, and doing an R&R on the liner? I have heard of very reputable diesel shops using the weld bead method one of you mentioned. Let's say we go one step further by doing the following:
1. Hacksaw the top of the junk piston, fit an O ring in the ring land and use it as a plug for bottom of the liner.

2. If needed, use the best combination of cutting, fracturing, grinding, etc then bead weld but with the following addition.

3. Near the top of the liner, purposely leave a gap in the weld line. At this point carefully center a sacrificial washer, old piston ring, etc. using a vernier caliper to keep the depth more or less equal then weld a few spots along the perimeter above the ring. This will serve as an anchor point for PULLING from below using the lower disc of our special tool. Notice that this is not mating the lower edge of the liner like most conventional tools. It will require a recess cutout to accommodate the welded bead.

4. Center the upper disc with the threaded rod (found on many gear or bearing pullers) and a machined recess for the liner and thread into the threads of the lower plate. This should pull with enormous force but owing to the design of the anchor, it will act to shrink the outer walls of the liner in proportion to the force applied as opposed to mushrooming the liner thereby avoiding many risks to the block from warping or cracking, using a hydraulic press.

Installation of a replacement liner should be much more straightforward although you would loose the ability to get a decent pull. Gently heating the block from below for a couple of hours as well as cooling the liner would greatly reduce the force required. If I'm not mistaken, for all metals there certain values defining their coefficients of expansion and contraction but all have a narrow range of acceptable engineering tolerances for press fits. After this point the metal will deform or form cracks. Of course knowing Mercedes, they always seem to enjoy taking the limits of force to the most absurd levels. This is what scares me, but as we all know there have been many clever solutions revealed in this forum alone. This may or may not be one of them, but I'd be willing to bet it's doable and certainly been done before.