When I removed the fan shroud/fan I took the top rad hose off and shined my bright light down in there. I did not like the looks of the "goop/stuff" down in there. I will take it to the rad shop and see if they can do anything with it. Worst case I will replace it. Looking down into the thermostat area where I had removed the hose looked pretty clean/good.

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Jim

The local radiator shop gave me a clean bill of health on the radiator after cleaning it up good. I have gone ahead and replaced the water pump and will be putting new glow plugs and performing the valve adj tomorrow. I have most of the fuel out of the tank and it was clean enough that I just dumped it into the 300D. I will finish cleaning up the fuel system tomorrow and pour 5 gallons of fresh fuel in there along with some new filters. I will try to find the leak at the manual pump and resolve it tomorrow prior to removing all of the fuel. For right now the fuel injectors are out and the cylinders/pistons are "soaking" in Marvel Mystery Oil and a little bit of ATF. Will probably let them soak again tomorrow night after adjusting the valves.
Anybody want to provide an explanation on why this car has a "butterfly" in the intake air system where the 300D does not have one? Any secret to "setting" this butterfly up in relation to the gas pedal movement? I was under the impression that diesels did not have "butterflies" in the air intake system.
So far - I have yet to find any reason why this car should not run. I will keep ya'll posted .

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Jim

Jim:

The "butterfly" is probably the anti-reverse-running valve -- weighted to stay open when the engine runs in the normal rotation, but closes and chokes off the "exhaust" to prevent the engine running backwards. It isn't connected to the throttle system at all. Diesels can run (rather poorly) in reverse rotation, usually caused by stalling under load (as it braking hard in gear). Rather scary to step on the accelerator and go backwards! No oil pressure, either, as the pump is sucking the oil out of the engine instead of the oil pan. MB put a valve in the intake in 1961.

I don't think the later IPs inject while running backward, or some other such means of preventing reverse rotation running was incorperated rather than the butterfly valve.

Older diesels with vacuum governors (up to 1975 300D) also have a standard "butterfly" to produce the vacuum to control engine speed. Later models use a mechanical governor in the IP instead. Maximum engine speed is set via a screw on the butterfly link at the intake, idle speed by the length of the link over the valve cover. Butterfly should be nearly closed at idle, stop screw sets maximim opening.

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

I let the Marvel Mystery oil and ATF sit in the cylinders and finally turned it over today. Seems to have compression - it blew that stuff all to heck and back when I turned it over with the starter. Earlier I had adjusted the valves (they were bad out of adjustment) and checked the timing chain stretch which looked good - remember only 119k miles showing on the odo. What I have found so far to keep it from starting are:
a) the glow plug light does not come on and unfortunately the new glow plugs I picked up were not the correct ones although the ones in the car read at least 2.2 ohms accross them. I do not think I am getting power to them to begin with. I will get into this a little deeper tomorrow and try to resolve why I do not seem to be getting the glo light on the dashboard.
b) the other thing that concerns me is that I may have a little sheen of oil on the coolant in the radiator and I have to add a little water/coolant after I crank it over. Worst case - I hope - is that it needs a new head gasket and may need some machine work on the head. The next week or so should shed some light on this.
I will keep ya'll posted.
Any tips/hints on testing/checking the glow plug system will be appreciated.

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Jim

Jim,

This oil in coolant worries me. Did you thoroughly flush the cooling system after sending the radiator to the shop? If not you need to thoroughly flush the system including the block, remove the drain plug from the block so you can more thoroughly flush the entire system. Once flushed, run it a little with water only to see if you still get oil in the coolant. You said before that the system was nasty, this could be residue. Flush, Flush and Flush again. I hate to say it, but I don't think a blown head gasket would only have the symptom of oil in coolant it would be worse, but the chances of oil in coolant on these engines is not great.

The glow plug is probably not a big deal. Have you checked the bar fuse inside the glow plug relay. Using an ohmmeter to check pin type plugs doesn't tell you much, they can have continuity and still be bad. A number of times, I've changed glow plugs that showed good to the ohmmeter, but upon changing them made the car cold start like new.

Best of luck,

This morning when I went out to the car the first thing I did was look in the radiator. The water level had gone down and it seems the oil (?) level had risen. Larry - best case - I think I will find what you found the time the head was corroded away. Either that or a cracked head or a badly blown head gasket. Someone must have run this car hot. From the thermostat housing on down the engine is full of coolant - unfortunately the green stuff - so I do not suspect a cracked block problem at this stage. I got as far as removing the cylinder head bolts and stopped because I do not have the correct socket. May try to pick one up tomorrow. I am thinking that the moisture is coming from the #3 cylinder area because of what I saw when I removed the intake/exhaust manifold and the color of the Marvel Mystery Oil that blew out of that cylinder yesterday - that brownish water/oil combination color. I am under the impression that removing the cylinder head will tell me alot. If it looks like a bottom end rebuild I will make the decision either to part it out or proceed with bringing it back. If it is a cylinder head replacement/rebuild I will probably proceed. Man, everything looks good and looks like a 119,xxx mile diesel should look. When I hooked the battery up to it I checked out all the electricals. Everything works - power antenna, hvac fans, lights, etc...
Larry, when you had the corrosion problem was it in the head and the block or just the head. Any advise on making weld repairs to this type of stuff?
thanks

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Jim

Jim:

You are all cast iron on this engine, corrosion shouldn't be a real serious problem. Blown head gasket is a definite possiblity, could also be a cracked head -- not usually a problem in the 615/616 engine.

There a plenty of these floating around, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a running engine if you don't want to overhaul this one!

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Jim,

The head corrosion problem I ran into was my 300E which has an aluminum head. That would be near impossible on this engine.

It appears that pulling the head is indeed the next step. But you obviously have already figured that out. It could be the head gasket if the engine overheated. If so make sure you check the head for straightness.

If you don't see evidence of a blown head gasket, try to inspect everything as closely as you can with the naked eye. If that doesn't turn anything up, the machine shop can pressure check the head. The only extra head I have is an early loop type, and it's on the worn out engine that's still in my 240D, it will be awhile before I get to taking it off. You can probably find a casting without too much trouble if you need one.

If the engine did overheat, the blown headgasket may very well be all that's wrong. Of course, you know how that goes, once you take it apart you shift into the phase of "well, while I have it apart......"

Keep us posted,

"while it is open up I may as well go ahead" and do whatever . But keep in mind this car is only showing right at 119,xxx miles and I have every reason to believe it is accurate so I am not seeing much that needs alot of work. The rubber hoses are shot and I suspect it needs brake calipers/disc but these are not much of an issue. That is a relieve to find out that the corrosion problem is not an issue with the cast iron head. I will probably stick a new set of valve seals in there while it is apart and will definitely check out the "straightness" of the head while it is apart. Once I get it off I will continue to let the cylinders/pistons soak in the Marvel Mystery Oil.
Updates will be posted as I get to them.
If everything comes out good with the engine I may go ahead and do it right and have it painted, etc.
thanks

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Jim

Ran home at lunch with a friend to hold the timing chain in place and we pulled the cylinder head off. The number two piston/cylinder is toast. Actually, looks like it ran with a loose nut or something in there. At this point I am seriously considering moving the interior to the 300D. I will try to get a picture posted this evening when I get home. I will decide over the next few hours which way to go - I have to make some phone calls.

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Jim

Do you think this is the result of extended corrosion caused by water leaking into the cylinder? I say that based on the condition of the liner.

I'm wondering if there is a water jacket around the cylinder liner? Because it looks like the liner is cracked at about 8:00 in the picture.

#1 looks like it has a touch of corrosion too. Can't see #4.

How are cylinder liners changed? Do they press in?

This looks like a serious but do-able project for the ambitious home mechanic. Can this be done with the engine in the car? That is, can the oil pan be removed and the piston changed?

If it were just a piston and liner on my 300D, I'd try doing this myself rather than junk the car. I'd give it a try anyway. What are we talking about in parts, $300?

Would be interested to hear theories on what caused this kind of damage.......

Ken 300D

That is severe scarring on the sleeve. I think that there are no water leakage issues in the block because it is maintaining water level. I am going to at least continue to take the engine apart - if only to get familiar with it and whether to eventually replace the sleeve, piston and rings. I was quoted by a very reputable local machine shop $140 to replace the liner where I carry him the block and new liner. I had a friend at work look at the pic and he said it looked to him like a lack of lubrication to the #2 cylinder caused it. The valves are intact but look pretty rough so there is some head work.

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Jim

$140 seems a bit pricey for a sleeve replacement and bore&hone, but I've not done any for a while -- was $30 here for sleeve and $30 to bore it, but that was six or seven years ago!.

A burned glow plug can get into the cylinder and raise hell, but that is usually a problem with the filament type -- the bits of the pencil type usually aren't thick enought to batter the piston. If the piston is badly damaged, check very closely for cracks in the head.

Check around, you may be able to find a running 240 engine cheaper than the rebuild -- if you do all the work except machining the block and valves yourself, shouldn't be more than $2000 with new pistons. Not a difficult job, as rebuilds go -- just use new stretch bolts on the flywheel and piston rods.

The pictures won't load for me, so I can't tell you anything else. If there is a palpable ridge at the top of the liners (after you scrape the carbon off), you need to either bore and use oversize pistons or re-sleeve all the bores and re-use the pistons (except #2 -- that one is shot for sure!). Wear limit is 0.002" If you have deep vertical scratches on the sleeve the rings failed or are broken (possibly from trying to start the engine or ether or propane......)

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Some interesting comments from Ken300D and psfred.

First of all, I'm really surprised that glow plug pieces can get into the cylinder given the small holes in the prechamber that the pieces have to get through. Of course, I guess it doesn't take a very big piece to do damage to a cylinder. I would think a BB could wreck it pretty bad.

The questions about the liners and getting the pan off in frame brought my imagination alive. WHAT IF, these engines had easily replacable liners and were situated such that the pan would come straight off with engine in frame like a '55 Chevy? These cars are so ideal to begin with, I think that would bring them into the PERFECTION category.

On up into the sixties there were cars on which you could do an inframe overhaul. In the early seventies, I had a six cylinder, '66 Mustang that was my work car. It had almost two hundred thousand well cared for miles and needed some attention. I pulled the head, put in rings and bearings, and an oil pump, took the head to the machine shop for a valve job and put it back on. I had less than nine hours in this in fram overhaul. Those were the good ol' days. Of course, the engines and lubricants in those days caused you to need those overhauls more often.

To answer your questions Ken. The liners are simply dry sleeves like the machine shops use on any standard block. The difference with these engines is that these sleeves are used at the factory instead of the cast in cylinders being the wear surface. The machinist bores to the OD of the liner, drives it in, tops it off flush with the deck, then bores and hones to fit the piston. No MB magic here.

Jim,

If you're going to tear it apart anyway, why not just sleeve that cylinder and replace that piston? Have you gotten a better look at the other three cylinders and maybe mic'ed them?

Have a great day,

I plan on proceeding with the teardown of the engine starting this weekend. Will have to purchase an engine stand but will be able to borrow a friends lift. My intentions are to keep all the engine parts together and reuse as much stuff as I can - #1 piston/rod, etc. Will plan on replacing rings and "stretch" bolts and give the other cylinders a good "honing/clean-up" if they look ok. At least taking it apart will enable me to learn how to go through one of these diesels. I will roll the engine over and take a look at the other two cylinders to see what I have there first thing tomorrow morning. I do not "feel" any ridge on the #3 cylinder at the top. Will probably just purchase a remanufactured cylinder head because of the looks of the #2 cylinder - it is beat up about as much as the piston top. I am considering purchasing a wrecked '79 240D in TX that the guy says has 149k miles and the engine runs. It has a 4 speed manual. Wonder if that engine/tranny combo would work in my '83 model and how much trouble it would be to convert my '83 to a manual?
I'm the type of person that doesn't really get to a "stopping" point until it is running . The hardest part about the job will be dealing with the wife not being able to park in the garage for the next couple of "cold" middle GA winter months. She is not too impressed with that situation but I have not run it by her yet .

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Jim