Back when I was going to Germany on a regular basis, I remember the VW Bugs being referred to as "Hitler's Mice" I forget the German words for that tho....

SB

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Diesels:
'85 300D, "Max, Blue Benz", 155K, 27.0 MPG
'84 190D 2.2, "Eva, Brown Benz", 142K, 40.2 MPG
'77 240D (parts car)
'67 Eicher ES 202 Tractor "Otto" (2cyl, Air Cooled, 30HP)
Gassers:
'94 Ford F-150, "Henry", 170K (300 Six) 17.5 MPG
'85 190E 2.3, 148K....Parts Car
'58 Dodge W300M Powerwagon (Flat Fenders) Less than 10 MPG

For buying a *used* car (as I'm guessing most of us mechanically inclined folks tend to do), the timing belt gives me the peace of mind knowing that I can slap a new one on, with all new pulleys, tensioners, rollers, etc. for about $250 in parts, and be confident that I'm good to go for another 100k miles.

With a chain, I'm hoping and praying that the previous owner wasn't lazy about his oil changes, leaving me with a motor that's on the verge of self-destruction...

But I've got no skin in this game, since I'm an owner and fan of both products. They've both got their advantages and drawbacks.

What's funny for me, is reading all the emotions in this thread. All brand-focused internet forums are naturally biased towards that particular brand, and skeptical of others. Just the nature of the thing I guess.

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'98 E300 turbodiesel

My '82 300D rides softer than our 2006 Jetta TDI.

The TDI get double the fuel mileage, has colder A/C, a working cruise control, and handles the turns with very little body lean.

Now, the MB has tons more character, easier to work on, less expensive maintenance, and it's paid for.

My wife drives the TDI. She likes my MB.

The question is this, what will the TDI look like in 27 years? My guess is the same as all the other new cars...You open it with a can opener or a pop top.

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RRGrassi


70's Southern Pacific #5608 Fairmont A-4 MOW car

13 VW JSW 2.0 TDI 193K, Tuned with DPF and EGR Delete.

99 W210 E300 Turbo Diesel, chipped, DPF/Converter Delete. Still needs EGR Delete, 232K

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 400K

Gone and still missed...1982 w123 300D, 1991 w124 300D

VW Group is moving towards timing chains with their larger diesel engines. What you'll see is not at all like what you have with the older Benz chains. The systems are infinitely more complicated and require a huge amount of work to service. This is going to be the nature of the beast.

Personally, I'm a big fan of timing chains as long as they are reliable and easy to service. A lot of the VW guys prefer belts because they remember the chains on the VR6 engine that require a significant amount of labor around 120,000 miles. A lot of them are also very nervous about the future of the VW diesel engines (with 2, 3, or more timing chains on the back of the engine).

What it boils down to is that you can't beat the simplicity of the 70s and 80s Benz diesels. The same goes for the 80s and early 90s VW diesels. They run forever and can be repaired by most competent individuals. The future is looking bleak in that respect... both VW and MB engines require special tools, special computers, and specialized knowledge to diagnose and repair them.

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2012 Volkswagen Passat TDI - 103,000 miles
2004 Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI - 160,000 miles
2003 Ford F-350 PowerStroke 6.0 -- sold
1987 Mercedes-Benz 300SDL -- 307,500 miles -- Retired
1991 VW Jetta GL ECOdiesel -- 429,531 miles -- RIP
2000 Volkswagen New Beetle TDI -- RIP
1987 Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Turbo -- sold

The 70's and 80's MB diesels are simple. I'll give you that. They're also uncomfortable, inefficient, smoky and tend to leak or burn oil. And no, they don't run forever. In fact in my experience they start to burn oil sooner than the newer diesels because they're not built to the same precision, and I've seen plenty of old MB diesels for sale with rebuilt engines.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Car technology is constantly changing especially with the engineering of engines and transmissions with the intention to make it better as time goes on. But in terms of build the newer cars arent built as well as the older ones and wont last long as the old mercedes. Most of the cars of today are built and designed with cheap materials designed to last the average length of time that most people hold onto cars. The new mbs of today we wont remembering down the road. Todays car is like any appliance that once it breaks it gets thrown out and can be recyled easily.

But really its unfair to compare the mb's of the 70's and 80's to today mercedes since the mindset of designers and engineers is different and also their target customers are different. So really its apples n oranges. A much better comparison would a vw from the 70 and 80's say a rabbit agianst a 240D or 300D.

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1986 300SDL, 211K,Dealership serviced its whole life
1991 190E 2.6(120k)
1983 300D(300k)
1977 300D(211k)

There are plenty of newer cars with over 200K miles holding up very well. I'd say most of today's cars will outlast their predecessors. There are some exceptions, for example the W123 cars had better rust protection than the early W210's, but generally today 200K miles is not exceptional whereas in the 70's it was, otherwise why did odometers only have 5 digits back then? I know that my OM606 with 136K miles isn't burning a drop of oil whereas my OM616 with a little more miles was burning a noticeable amount. From this forum it seems all the oil burning/blowby threads are concerning the OM616/7 engines whereas the newer ones don't appear to have such problems even if they have more miles on them.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

The technology behind the drivetrains is evolving and getting better but everything else about the production of todays cars is much cheaper using plastic to make parts that were metal, using glue to hold a car together instead of welding(bmw).
Gluing a frame together, making fenders out of plastic are all methods to reduce the life of a car since most customers today dont care about longevity, they care mostly about a solid drivetrain to get them to point A to point B. I realize that gluing frames togethers and making parts such as fenders out of plastic are to be seen as technoloigical advances since the plastics and glues they are making are supposed to be better than using metal and welding. But at the end of the day the cars of today are tin cans compared to the older cars in terms of build qauilty.

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1986 300SDL, 211K,Dealership serviced its whole life
1991 190E 2.6(120k)
1983 300D(300k)
1977 300D(211k)

You're right about them not running forever... that was a blatant exaggeration. Speaking of which, my SDL is dead with a cracked cylinder head. However it does not burn any oil... none of my diesels have burned oil (lucky?).

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2012 Volkswagen Passat TDI - 103,000 miles
2004 Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI - 160,000 miles
2003 Ford F-350 PowerStroke 6.0 -- sold
1987 Mercedes-Benz 300SDL -- 307,500 miles -- Retired
1991 VW Jetta GL ECOdiesel -- 429,531 miles -- RIP
2000 Volkswagen New Beetle TDI -- RIP
1987 Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Turbo -- sold

My OM603 didn't burn any oil either. It's the OM616/7's that are notorious for burning oil and having blowby as they get old.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

You are SO right about them not running forever! My 84 240D only made it a little over 500,000 miles. Piece of junk! Maybe if it would have had a timing belt that I could have replaced every 90,000 miles it would have gone farther.

How odd because that's how far mine went. Are there others? We may need to form a class action suit for an apparent defect.

How come every diesel Jetta I see,their in my rear veiw mirror.

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1999 w140, quit voting to old, and to old to fight, a god damned veteran, deutschland deutschland uber alles uber alles in der welt

You better get 500 000 out of a car that costed like 50 000 dollars in the 1980's because you can get that mileage out of a 18 000 dollars Toyota Corolla and that is 18 000 dollars in todays weak dollar.

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1993 Mercedes 300D 2.5

1987 Mercedes 300D 3.0

2000 Volkswagen JETTA TDI diesel 5 speed

2002 Lexus ES300

2006 Lexus GS430

Sorry to bust your bubble, but a 240D was NOT a $50,000 car. Mine was a Euro car with 17,000 miles on it and a year old when I bought it for $17,000. I also paid $17,000, as I recall, for my 77 240D brand new.

Yes, they were expensive to buy initially, but ammortized including operating expenses, my half million mile 240D cost less per mile than any other new or near new car that I ever purchased.

As pointed out by another poster, it is not a fair comparison between a new car and one of 30+ year old technology. The 123 MB was designed in the mid seventies.