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Blown head gasket/hydrolocked engine? Help
Hey everyone. I'm pretty new around this forum. I've had my 1992 300D for about 3 years, and now I'm having some serious issues with it.
Problem #1 (check this link for a thread I started on another forum) http://www.schumanautomotive.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8988 this started about 3 months ago, and got progressively worse ever since. My engine temp would fluctuate a lot. On a hot day it could not even maintain anything below 100*C (normal operating temp is 80*, it goes up to 100* during heavy load periods, such as a hill) I noticed I was going through a lot of coolant. The engine would get hot, the coolant would expand and overflow out of the.... overflow and then the engine would overheat. I replaced the expansion tank, it's lid, and the thermostat. I believe the tank/lid combo helped retain the coolant for longer, but it would still overflow. Problem #2 (link) http://www.schumanautomotive.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9162 I go out to start my car one day and.... nothin. The starter will make sound, like it's trying to turn the engine, but to no avail. The engine will not turn over at all, not 1/8 turn. On the other forum some members came to the conclusion that the engine might be hydrolocked and suggested I attempt to turn the engine via crank shaft. I tried that and was able to turn it, not very far due to space, but still, it was pretty easy. Then I went through the trouble of replacing the starter, after that the engine started and ran. YAY! right? No, wrong. We clean up after ourselves, take the car off stands, and wrap up for the day. Next day I try to pull out of the garage and nothing, same symptom as before I replaced the starter. Then I went through the trouble of replacing all the battery cables, having the battery tested, and cleaning the heck out of everything (connections and whatever else I can get my hands on). To no avail. Same symptom. Then I get back on the crank shaft. It turns a few cm and then... nothing, can't turn it at all, not with two people on it. Any advice, knowledge, tips, suggestions, ANYTHING!! will be appreciated. Thanks and Hello, Ben |
On a gasoline engine any time hydrolock is suspected the first thing to do is pull all the spark plugs and see if you can turn the motor either by hand or with the starter. I would think the same would be true with a diesel. I would pull the glow plugs but others may have a better option. You dont want to force the motor to turn over without giving any fluid a placxe to go ie out the glow plug holes. Pull all of them and see which ones if any puke liquid when you turn it over and then you will know. Thanks
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You can also pull the injectors which might be less work in a 602. You'll need new heat shields when the injectors go back in.
Sixto 87 300D |
so will doing this test tell me where the blown gasket is? assuming that it is hydrolocked and fluid comes out.
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It will tell you which cylinders took on water and a general area of failure, If you get fluid you are done anyway. The head must come off. Thanks
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Correct - if any fluid is expelled from any cylinder, you have serious problems and the head has to come off. Also check the oil for any signs of coolant. If the engine won't crank, but will crank fine with the injectors or glow plugs removed, that's also a bad sign (again, I'd expect liquid of some sort to come out during cranking).
BTW - the links to the Boneheaddoctor / Lester (aka "Schuman") forum don't help. You can't view those unless you register at that forum and log in. You'd need to copy & paste the important info from those threads and post them here... :euro: |
ah, didn't know that about the Schuman forum. But I think I described it well enough... i hope... seeing how as we have a pretty good idea it's this hydrolocked deal. (btw, that's the big conclusion they came to on the other forum)
But, anyway, I'll take off the injectors (hopefully within a day or two, gotta pick up some tools, and I'm waiting for the heat shields still). Do I take all of them off at once, and should I crank it using the starter or should I do it manually. Also, there are plastic covers (or something) on the injectors and some of them are broken, should I replace these? and what are they. Thanks, Ben |
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My car is doing exactly the same thing. Great every day until one morning it won't crank. I took the cap off the expansion tank and it was pressurized. I hand turned the crank and when it got to the really tough cylinder, while puling (very hard) through this cylinder you can hear fluid being emptying into the crankcase.
Either the head gasket, or the head. I've got new head bolts, now I'm waiting for the head gasket. Next wee I take it all apart. |
Michael, is this the SDL that recently came together?
Sixto 87 300D |
What fluid (besides oil) are you finding in the crankcase Michael?
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It seems to have happened overnight. No overheating. I have a #22 head. I measured the head bolts for tolerance and reused them. Maybe I shouldn't have. |
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I assume you used a name-brand gasket set, chased all 27 or so head bolt threads with tap & die (both the bolt AND the block threads), and soaked all liquid out of the block? And used clean engine oil on the threads when installing? And used the factory 4-stage torque procedure with an angle rotation gauge, not eyeballing it? Lots of little things to go wrong if you're not careful... :blink: |
Well I pulled the injectors and sure enough... water... out of the third cylinder. Looks like I'm gonna be pullin the head. I've never done anything like this before, on any car. I've never even taken off the valve cover.
My point is, is that I'm gonna need all the help and info I can get. What tools do I need to pull the head? What do I need to buy to complete the whole job? What things require replacement after disassembled (gaskets, etc.)? Anything I need to be particularly careful of/avoid completely/remember specifically? Anything I should look into or take care of while I've got everything apart? Trouble areas? Hopefully I'm gonna be able to get someone who actually knows engines to help me out. I only have a couple weeks to complete the whole job, so hope I can do it. |
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Okay first thing is first where are you located, a very nice forum member might be willing (for a beer or steak or both) to come and help you. Second how many miles on your car? You might need to replace your timing chain while you are there. You will need to find a good machine shop to check your head and clean it and maybe relap the valves ect ect....I would also suggest changing your glowplugs while you have the head off. Those are just suggestions. You will need all associated gaskets with the job. Others have taken the head off on this particular model and will be able to help you more....good luck!
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Trouble areas - make sure you have ALL the bolts removed, and the oil feed hose removed, and brackets below the turbo... before trying to pull the head off the engine! If it doesn't come loose, don't force it - you probably missed something. You'll need to chase the head bolts (and measure them), and tap all the holes in the block, and dry them, as mentioned above. That alone takes a couple of hours. Quote:
:euro: |
I'm tired of using old nuts and bolts, so I've just bought one of these too.
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I'm located in Utah, a small place called Eagle Mountain. I have some neighbors who have lots of experience with cars and engines (and lots of things) in general, not Mercedes but... you know. As for the miles... I can't be sure, odometer says about 70k right now, PO said it was replaced at 70K and my title says the odometer reading is "exempt" :\ I would guess that it has more than the 140k but... I just don't know.
What factory manual do you suggest, a CD? Or Book? I dunno where to get it... Is relaping the valves changing the valve stem seals, and if not should I do that? What about replacing the valve guides, valve keepers, cam follower, or prechamber. Are there valve springs, and should they be replaced? Do these cars need valve adjustments and should I do a timing adjustment? There's a lot I don't know about all this, and right now I'm shakin in my boots :) but I hope to get someone to help me. And thank you for the help so far. Guess I need to start ordering parts and get this show on the road. Hope I blow up my car :) |
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Bring it across to Holland Michael, we'll do mine at the same time.
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I'm going to look at one of these tomorrow that is reported to have a bad head gasket.
Sounds like if I buy it I'll have lots of good company. I've never attempted something this major. Not sure that I want to. Anyone have their head gasket replaced by an indy? I'm curious how much it would cost to have it done. |
Yeah, I saw that one for sale in Ogden... wonder what the condition is, with almost 300k on the car. Could be a good deal if it's in nice shape, and ONLY needs a head gasket. I'd go check it out if it were closer, but they say it's not driveable, and I don't have a way to haul it to Boise economically.
At an indy shop, figure minimum 10-15 hours labor, 15-20 max, for a straight head gasket job. If they find anything else while they're in there, like a bad timing chain, etc that figure could increase. Basic parts shouldn't be too much, most likely under $200, but again if they find other things... could jump to $300-$500 in parts. If fluids mixed, tack on the cost of an oil & coolant flush + change. I'd expect the estimate to come in somewhere between $1200 and $1800, depending on the local labor rate, and the shop's expertise with these engines. If you get a quote, please post details here, I'd love to know the going rate! :zorro: |
Head Gasket
Well we're on our way. Valve cover off, turbo off. Having some difficulty with bolts on the intake. The 3 inside on the middle three cylindes are stuck tight. They are soaking in PB blaster right now (hope it helps).
I am wondering about the Timing Chain. Thank you gxsr for the right up on how to check for stretch. I will do this before I remove the head. My question is how do you remove the chain from the sproket so you can remove the head? There is a funky looking splined nut on the sproket. Is this what needs to come off to take the sproket/Chain off?. What size is this nut? Must be a special socket to use on this. Once the chain is off and the head bolts removed can the head be pulled up with everything intact ie. cam shaft, valves. What is the best way to release the head from the block? Will it be stuck to the block? I am hoping to take the complete intact head to the machine shop and have them go over it. Will it cost more if it is not dissassembled? Thank you for all the help |
Oh, another question. Some of the intake manifold bolts are kind of stripped... oops... I've looked at a couple online parts stores and can't find any new ones, I'm wondering where I can get those. And also, in that factory manual it has the tightening diagram, but I can't for the life of me read the numbers to figure out which order to take out/put in the bolts.. help on that please?
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As for the parts if you are not sure click the link at the top of the page and talk to phil. If he can't get it for you it don't exist...
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The bolt takes a regular 12-point socket.
The chain can be zip-tied to the timing gear and left on the engine, have to remove the pin and upper chain guide. Also be careful as there are two small bolts down in the chain cavity at the front of the head holding the head to the block (easy to miss). |
Ditto what Jeff said. Make sure you follow the factory manual procedure closely, it will show each item that must be removed, including the two "hidden" bolts at the front of the head. When you remove the camshaft sprocket, the chain will lay in the cavity. There are TWO rail pins holding in the upper chain rail, both must be removed. The exhaust manifold and turbo can remain attached to the head if desired. The head should not be stuck to the block tightly... if you pry up gently, it should come off the block with minimal effort. If you have to use any serious muscle to pry the head up, and it snaps back down, you probably missed one or more items. Don't forget the bracket below the turbo, and the turbo oil line, fuel filter housing bolts, and count to make sure you removed all of the primary head bolts.
If you remove the camshaft, follow the factory procedure, there is a specific bolt sequence, and they must be loosened 1 turn at a time. If you don't follow this sequence, the camshaft can snap due to pressure from the valve springs. :scholar: |
Lowes had some bolts that were a perfect match except that they weren't galvanized like the mercedes intake manifold bolts. They will work in a pinch, especially if you put them on some of the more accessible areas to replace your stripped ones. I also found some stainless steel bolts at Lowes that were the right pitch and size but were not allen head. Again, those will work in a pinch, especially where installed in the upper, accessible holes.
You can get replacements from your MB dealer of course. Once you know the correct bolt description, which you can get matching the bolt at Lowes, you should be able to find some stainless steel replacements online, which I think would be preferable over the galvanized ones. One thing about the intake gasket -- the one that you get from MB is of a higher quality and of different construction from some of the aftermarket ones out there. Ben, in the factory manual pdfs the preview image is sometimes not very good quality and smaller diagrams can often be read better when actually printed. |
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ooooh, I was using this one it's much less legible and seems to list some unnecessary things to be removed... such as the radiator... :eek:
And which one of these is the upper chain rail... just want to make sure. I got this valve stem seal kit, they look the same style as in your pic gsxr (just not the color), i just hope they're the "good" ones. How hard are the head bolts to remove. They feel really tight and I dont want to strip them. Any advice on what to use to break them properly? And do you only work on one at a time, removing it completely before moving on or do you loosen all of them and then remove all of them? I'm gonna need some sort of magic to get those stripped bolts out. But, I'll find a way. I hope. And Ya, Thanks for the extra resources, especially that readable factory manual :) |
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:arabia: http://detali.ru/cat/cats/my.mycat?P...e1d4cbc9b2c7f9 http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/hir...300&height=300 |
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I was hoping that it would have enough nice parts that if I decided not to fix it, I could part it out and make some money. There weren't very many nice parts left. It's spent too much time in the sun and commuting on salted roads, 80 miles to SLC and back every day. Half of the car needs repainted, the headliner sags, the wood is cracked and the upholstery has issues. The chrome has worn thin on the grill surround, etc. etc. :( On the bright side, they claim a lot of things work, such as A/C and such. They've already replaced it with a very nice, almost mint 87 190D 2.5. I'd give them $500 for that! :D Nobody seems to think it's worth gambling $500 on. |
well, I'm getting real close to starting on the head bolts. finally got the intake manifold off. Guess I still have to order that rail pin puller tho, kinda expensive it seems like... and I don't know how to use it :). And i just want to make sure, that pin puller is for the rail guide, not taking the chain apart right?
To get the chain loose I just loosen the 12 pt bolt and take out the upper rail guide and let the chain/sprocket sit right? Before I take that off I'm gonna try to check for stretch. I got the two marks on the sprocket and... other thing... lined up pretty well, just need to look at the crank pulley correct? I just can't really see it very well so I'm wondering if I have to remove the water pump or something else to get to it properly. |
oh, and I almost forgot, what is the turbo oil drain o-ring, is it this?
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The pin remove removes the pins holding the upper chain guide (pictures in gsxr's response). If you've removed the injectors, use the heat shields a socket and a long 6mm bolt. Set the socket open side towards the pin, put the bolt through the socket into the pin using enough washers so it doesn't bottom in the pin. Tighten the bolt. At some point the bolt will bottom. Remove the bolt and add washers. Lather rinse repeat until the pin comes free of the head.
To get the chain loose you remove the tensioner. Loosen by the big hex against the block/front cover, not by the smaller hex on the tensioner stem. I think the same 27mm deep socket for injectors works on the tensioner. Use a flashlight into the crank pulley from about the 11 o'clock position. Spray brake parts cleaner first so you see a distinct pointer and timing marks rather than a cruddy mess. Maybe look at the crank pulley from below as you turn the engine so you see the timing marks embossed on the rubber damper for a better feel of what you're looking for from above. Since alignment of the cam sprocket and cam tower marks is somewhat subjective, average a half dozen readings, give the engine two full turns between. Sixto 87 300D |
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IIRC it's a green o-ring about 3/4" across. It goes in the slip joint between the drain tube attached to the turbo and the drain tube attached to the block. Sixto 87 300D |
The turbo oil drain O-rings are item # 350 in the diagram below. There are two of them, part number 012-997-56-48, list price $2.20 each.
The rail pin puller isn't an absolute requirement, the pins can usually be removed with the method Sixto describes. I have the actual puller, I think it was worth the $30 for the reduced hassle. :chinese2: http://detali.ru/cat/cats/my.mycat?P...8f82959f9cf1c7 |
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I would still want to measure chain stretch, especially on a 602 engine which is known to have a batch of bad chains from the factory. If it measures beyond spec, then you know it HAS to be replaced. If it's within spec, then it's just optional... on a budget, you could save the ~$150 plus tool rental and just leave it be. They're not like belts which can fail unexpectedly if not changed on schedule...
:ninja: |
These bad chains on 602s. Over all years? Just one year?
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Well I got the head off! It's at a machine shop right now, probably till about Wednesday since Monday's a holiday. But ya, I did it. :):):)
On the timing chain, I did it 6 times with 2 full rotations in between measurements. Lowest i got was 0, highest was just below 3. AVG of about 2. Soo sounds good right? Anyway, I'm just wondering if there's anything I need to know about reinstalling. I'll clean up the block probably with a paint scraper, definitely change the oil (duh?), and then just hope I can remember how it all goes back :rolleyes: Questions: Do I need to lube anything with oil before it goes back on (gaskets or whatever), should I clean certain parts or stay away from cleaning certain parts, and how does one go about chasing the threads in the block? Oh, one last random thing. We ordered new head bolts and it says there are 22, but it only came with 21. So should we just use one of the old ones?? I assume so, but I just wanted to check. |
Ben, a bit late but I'm in Salt Lake City if you need help.
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Sixto 87 300D |
I have a few questions about the injectors now.
Is it critical that they all go back in the same cylinder? Also after I put them in is it critical that the little return line *thingies* all line up so that you could draw an imaginary line connecting them which would be parallel to the length of the car... hope that makes sense. |
Injectors and Fuel return lines
Are you gonna "Pop Test" your Injectors? (for proper Release pressure?)
[this would tell you if one or more are out of specs,and need to be balanced] If not I'd replace the Injectors in the same # cylinder Pre-Chambers they came from. It's not CRITICAL that you replace each injector in exactly the same Cylinder. [Without a Compression Test and Pop testing the Injectors it's a Crap Shoot.] Disclaimer:If you've got different compression Pressure Readings from different cylinders (outside of specs) the engine is inherently unbalanced as it runs. If you throw in unbalanced Injectors into the mix...there's even more "Unbalancement" Some might claim that "Getting Lucky" enough to place the weaker injectors into the stronger Cylinders would balance out.[Not Me!] [AKA Non-Georgia Tech/Auburn approved Diesel Re-Engineering] [Like taking your Ferrari to the Saturn dealer] I'd wanna do a compression test ,first to see where I stood. AND have the Injectors balanced (Replace Injector Nozzles @ same time)... When you get around to Re-Installing the Injectors,use a NEW heat shield for each injector (Concave side facing out/upwards) MAKE SURE NONE OF THE OLD HEAT SHIELD(S) has been left STUCK in the Pre-Chamber hole the Injector goes into. When you torque the Injectors to proper Specifications... the little "Nipples" on the sides of the Injectors (For the return lines) will almost NEVER line up longitudinally (so there's no way to "Line Up" the Return lines)...Don't be concerned (just be careful not to "Prang" the Nipples),just connect the return lines so the end is the "Plugged" hose on cylinder #5 nipple (Firewall) and the last hose from injector nipple on Cylinder #1 goes back to the proper Banjo Bolt on the fuel filter housing. |
well I got the everything put back together finally. aaaannnd... still issues.
There are leaks on one of the metal injection lines (cylinder 4) where it connects to the actual injector and at the injection pump. Its really tight on both ends. It runs rough, it has died a few times about 5-10 seconds after a cold start up. (I'm hoping this is related to the fuel leak, but it's probably timing right?) White smoke comes out of the tailpipe when the engine is cold. Seems less powerful. I don't know how to check/adjust the IP timing. but gsxr said that was something to do. Any ideas? |
The ball ends of the injector lines are pretty soft. They deform with over tightening then they have to be replaced. Not getting fuel to a cylinder won't cause white smoke.
Borrow or rent the A-B timing light in the tool rental forum for the straight way to set IP timing. You can get close enough with an IP locking tool. The tool has a slot which locks a tab that rotates with the IP shaft - http://www.w124performance.com/image...__RIV_tang.jpg Set the tab visually just above center in the RIV port on the side of the IP. Put the locking tool in place with the slot oriented to engage the tab. Rotate the engine slowly until the locking tool pin recedes to indicate engagement. Read the crank pulley gradients against the TDC indicator. Ideally you'll see 14* ATDC. If not, remove the locking tool, set the crank to 14* ATDC, loosen the 4 bolts holding the IP tight against the block and use the same tool as you adjust IP timing using the turnbuckle. The caveat is the o-ring between the block and IP might not appreciate being moved after 17 years in place and you'll have a dribble of engine oil pooling near the driver side engine mount. Sixto 87 300D |
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