A/C pressures and volumes - Freeze 12.. - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JimmyL · #16 05-25-2010, 12:58 AM

Well, for a counter point to the evil blend theory:

Taken this morning on the way to work.

Freeze12 works very nicely for me. Much better than R134a and not much different than R12. The blend thing hasn't been an issue even though I've added 1/3 to 1/2 a can for the last 2-3 summers. Have had this system and compressor working for about 5 summers now.
Most folks knocking Freeze12 have never tried it. Nothing like actual experience with a particular product to kind of validate the opinion, eh?
I'm just sayin'........

btw, I will look for my pressure data tomorrow and report back if I can find it. You use the chart on the Freeze12 site and add 40 degrees to your ambient temp and go with those pressures. Seems like Al's high side pressure is about right with temps in the 90's, but I don't remember the low side being as high as 40.

dantheman67 · #17 05-25-2010, 01:47 AM

@JimmyL:

Nice! That's close to freezing. Wow.

So I bought two cans of Freeze 12 today. Out of Pep Boys, Harbor Freight and Kragen, only Kragen had any Freeze 12. And they had 2 cans.

Now I need a proper fitting to puncture the cans and secure the charge! I called around to lots of places- only Napa Auto of Oakland has the fitting at all- and it's only available for overnight order. Planning to do that tomorrow.

Seems these old R12 systems and their associated tech are hard to come by... At least around here.

alabbasi · #18 05-25-2010, 02:45 AM

Jimmy, the number on the vent is impressive. I've used it in an old Saab when I lived in Atlanta and it worked so well, I got closer to 30 degrees using a meat thermometer like the one in the picture.

However, I can say that R134 can also work quite well, and will ultimately be easier to maintain for someone who's an A/C novice. I have R134 in my 6.9 and it's ice cold from the moment the car runs.

I think that my issue with freeze 12 is not that it's an alternative to R12; but that there is a misconception that it is a drop in replacement to R12. It's simply is not and anyone who takes the time to read the literature will see this. You do need to change the oil, and you will have leaks unless you change the hoses to barrier hoses so in effect your doing a conversion which may or may not require new parts. If it does, then you convert with the understanding that pretty much anything you buy will state something like "Warranty only valid if R12 or R134 is used".

The only person that touches my a/c system is me and I'm quite happy to take responsibility for my mistakes so I don't mind experimenting with certain things. I'm sure that you're the same. But for the people that don't maintain their own cars, they may want to maintain a warranty on new parts and be able to take the car to someone who will be able to work on it without trashing their own supply of refrigerant.

Therefore, fittings should be changed and a sticker should be added to indicate that the system is using freeze12.

Here is my 6.9 running R134. I'm using an infra red thermometer so the temps will show higher then yours because your taking the temp inside the vents.

When I took this picture this evening, I just cranked the car and the a/c setting is set to low. The other pic was taken outside the car to show the outside temp.

I bought this car more then two years ago and it was already converted. I've never had to top it up since. It has new hoses, aluminum ACC servo and a new condenser. I would consider it as a good conversion and it works quite well.

I've had cars that have not had good R134 conversions such as my 81 500SLC which I converted back to R12. The a/c worked horribly on that car when it used R134 but it works quite well on R12.

As we're taking about alternative refrigerants, a buddy of mine recently bought a 75 240D (W115) with non working A/C. The hoses were cracked and had to be replaced as well as the compressor (york) which was trashed. I offered to sell him R12 or give him what was left of a jug of Autofrost R406a. When I was looking for alternatives, this stuff was the only stuff that I could find that really was a drop in replacement to R12. By drop in, I'm not suggesting that you mix the two but that it's compatible with mineral oil. On an inefficient system like the one on the 240D, I am amazed at how well it works. This stuff will turn your nipples blue! As soon as the compressor turns on, the low side hose near the fitting will ice up. I was so impressed, I bought another jug of this stuff to put in my W114 280CE.

I'm not against using alternatives (except for propane as I have alternative means of removing facial hair) but I do believe for the alternatives to work well, the system will need some work also. If you want to keep the system running at little cost or with little effort. R12 is still the most affordable option because you can buy cans for about $20 which is not much more then R134 (about $12 at O'Reilly's) and it will work as designed.

#19 05-25-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

A heated charging cylinder is also nice. I use a scale to check the fill of the charging scale, since it's easier than using pressure (temperature) and level.

But I also use the scale for non-AC work. For example, to suck some transmission fluid out of a car and replace it with new. I weigh the extractor before and after, and know exactly how much came out.

Yes a heating blanket is particular nice for a commercial shop where time is money. That's one of the "like to have" items on my list, but a refrigerant identifier and sealant detector are above it on the list.

#20 05-25-2010, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyL

Well, for a counter point to the evil blend theory:

Taken this morning on the way to work.

Freeze12 works very nicely for me. Much better than R134a and not much different than R12. The blend thing hasn't been an issue even though I've added 1/3 to 1/2 a can for the last 2-3 summers. Have had this system and compressor working for about 5 summers now.
Most folks knocking Freeze12 have never tried it. Nothing like actual experience with a particular product to kind of validate the opinion, eh?
I'm just sayin'........

btw, I will look for my pressure data tomorrow and report back if I can find it. You use the chart on the Freeze12 site and add 40 degrees to your ambient temp and go with those pressures. Seems like Al's high side pressure is about right with temps in the 90's, but I don't remember the low side being as high as 40.

Jimmy,

You're playing with fire! As I understand it, Freeze 12 is mostly 134 and a small percentage of some Ju...., er alternative refrigerant. The reason for the alternative component is to help in oil circulation.

With any blend one component will leak at a faster rate than the other. That's why continually topping off is not a good idea. I would think you could get by with it once, but continually topping off could run into lubricant circulation problems. Since, as I understand, the stuff is so great and so cheap, then it would seem to make sense to recover and refill with a fresh batch. Of course finding a shop that will recover it will be a problem, but it beats losing a compressor and going through all the nightmares involved with removing the debris.

I just wanted to make sure that you are aware of this.

Good luck.

#21 05-25-2010, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

Jimmy, the number on the vent is impressive. I've used it in an old Saab when I lived in Atlanta and it worked so well, I got closer to 30 degrees using a meat thermometer like the one in the picture.

However, I can say that R134 can also work quite well, and will ultimately be easier to maintain for someone who's an A/C novice. I have R134 in my 6.9 and it's ice cold from the moment the car runs.

I think that my issue with freeze 12 is not that it's an alternative to R12; but that there is a misconception that it is a drop in replacement to R12. It's simply is not and anyone who takes the time to read the literature will see this. You do need to change the oil, and you will have leaks unless you change the hoses to barrier hoses so in effect your doing a conversion which may or may not require new parts. If it does, then you convert with the understanding that pretty much anything you buy will state something like "Warranty only valid if R12 or R134 is used".

The only person that touches my a/c system is me and I'm quite happy to take responsibility for my mistakes so I don't mind experimenting with certain things. I'm sure that you're the same. But for the people that don't maintain their own cars, they may want to maintain a warranty on new parts and be able to take the car to someone who will be able to work on it without trashing their own supply of refrigerant.

Therefore, fittings should be changed and a sticker should be added to indicate that the system is using freeze12.

Here is my 6.9 running R134. I'm using an infra red thermometer so the temps will show higher then yours because your taking the temp inside the vents.

When I took this picture this evening, I just cranked the car and the a/c setting is set to low. The other pic was taken outside the car to show the outside temp.

I bought this car more then two years ago and it was already converted. I've never had to top it up since. It has new hoses, aluminum ACC servo and a new condenser. I would consider it as a good conversion and it works quite well.

I've had cars that have not had good R134 conversions such as my 81 500SLC which I converted back to R12. The a/c worked horribly on that car when it used R134 but it works quite well on R12.

As we're taking about alternative refrigerants, a buddy of mine recently bought a 75 240D (W115) with non working A/C. The hoses were cracked and had to be replaced as well as the compressor (york) which was trashed. I offered to sell him R12 or give him what was left of a jug of Autofrost R406a. When I was looking for alternatives, this stuff was the only stuff that I could find that really was a drop in replacement to R12. By drop in, I'm not suggesting that you mix the two but that it's compatible with mineral oil. On an inefficient system like the one on the 240D, I am amazed at how well it works. This stuff will turn your nipples blue! As soon as the compressor turns on, the low side hose near the fitting will ice up. I was so impressed, I bought another jug of this stuff to put in my W114 280CE.

I'm not against using alternatives (except for propane as I have alternative means of removing facial hair) but I do believe for the alternatives to work well, the system will need some work also. If you want to keep the system running at little cost or with little effort. R12 is still the most affordable option because you can buy cans for about $20 which is not much more then R134 (about $12 at O'Reilly's) and it will work as designed.

Very good post! The last paragraph says it all.

dantheman67 · #22 05-25-2010, 12:44 PM

That sounds good, but where is the average DIYer going to find R12?

alabbasi · #23 05-25-2010, 01:08 PM

You can buy it locally through Napa or online on ebay or through the forums. I sold cases of the stuff last year for $20/can on this forum.

#24 05-25-2010, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman67

That sounds good, but where is the average DIYer going to find R12?

You can go online to sites like IMACA.org and take an online test for $15 and about an hour of your time. The result is a 609 license so that you can buy R12 legally anywhere. That means you can legally buy it off ebay or any other source such as those selling it on sites like this.

DeliveryValve · #25 05-25-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman67

.....
So I bought two cans of Freeze 12 today. Out of Pep Boys, Harbor Freight and Kragen, only Kragen had any Freeze 12. And they had 2 cans.
.....

I have 8 cans of Freeze 12 that I would like to unload if anybody is interested. I purchased a case and tried it out for a season. It worked fine in my hot temperature region.
But I have now a lifetime supply of R12, so I won't be using Freeze 12 anymore.

PM me if interested.

.

dantheman67 · #26 05-25-2010, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

I have 8 cans of Freeze 12 that I would like to unload if anybody is interested. I purchased a case and tried it out for a season. It worked fine in my hot temperature region.
But I have now a lifetime supply of R12, so I won't be using Freeze 12 anymore.

PM me if interested.

.

I'm more interested in buying some of that lifetime source of R12 off of you... Lol

JimmyL · #27 05-25-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Jimmy,

You're playing with fire! As I understand it, Freeze 12 is mostly 134 and a small percentage of some Ju...., er alternative refrigerant. The reason for the alternative component is to help in oil circulation.

With any blend one component will leak at a faster rate than the other. That's why continually topping off is not a good idea. I would think you could get by with it once, but continually topping off could run into lubricant circulation problems. Since, as I understand, the stuff is so great and so cheap, then it would seem to make sense to recover and refill with a fresh batch. Of course finding a shop that will recover it will be a problem, but it beats losing a compressor and going through all the nightmares involved with removing the debris.

I just wanted to make sure that you are aware of this.

Good luck.

You know what, even though we are kind of on different "sides" as far as the implementation of this product, I sure do appreciate a courteous and well thought out response supported politely with the appropriate facts.

I've got China running on Envirosafe, and it is far closer to R134a than Freeze12. I won't be using that anymore probably, but it was just a quick "try and see".....