I'm in the last stages of a A/T-M/T transmission conversion. I replaced the master cylinder and slave cylinder and tried to bleed by way of the oil can method (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=280099).

# The oil can method introduced a good amount of fluid into the brake fluid reservoir.
# The clutch offers only an inch of resistance at the very bottom of pedal lash.
# With the engine running and clutch depressed, I tried to put it in first. The car nudged forward an inch or so without producing any grinding or unusual sounds. The transmission did not go into first.

I have some questions:

# I have read on the forum that installing the clutch plate in the wrong orientation can understandably cause problems with bleeding the clutch. What is the proper orientation for the clutch plate? I can't find this in the transmission FSM or anywhere. Which side faces the flywheel? The flat side, or the side with the raised hub section (vibration damper)? I have installed it with the flat side facing the flywheel.
# I had the flywheel resurfaced before installing it. I've read on this forum about needing to shim the flywheel after resurfacing it, but in those same posts I've read about the lack of availability of flywheel shims. So, what's the deal? Do you need to shim the flywheel if you resurface it?
# I observed a drip from the bleeder screw while pumping fluid in. Could this have been an indicator of air entering the lines? I thought it was an indicator of fluid exiting the system due to interior pressure. I am planning to try again with teflon tape on the bleeder screw.

Please let me know what think about this, and tell me if I ought to be thinking about other possibilities.

Andrew

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'Betsy the Getaway Car' : 1978 MB 240D, 582k
'The Mistress of the Sea' : 2001 Giant Boulder, 10.30k

Andrew, I just went through almost exactly this scenario. If you have the shorter, white-plastic-topped pushrod for the clutch master cylinder, you may have the wrong one. Therefore you are not getting enough throw on your clutch to actuate it enough. If you bought the master cylinder and the pushrod separately, this is very likely the issue.

The solution is either to get the longer, black-plastic-headed pushrod or to lengthen your existing one by welding in a bolt fragment or the like. I could not quickly get my hands on the factory long one, so I fabricated it. By my calculations, extrapolating from a picture I found of the two sizes side by side on the internet, the long one is 7mm longer than the short one.

Good luck,
Ken

If you left the pushrod in place and only changed the master cylinder, don't worry about the pushrod being correct.

There are many methods of bleeding this system, but I've found that with a full reservoir, if you will simply do a two man bleeding as you would brakes then let it set overnight, enough bubbles will work their way out that you will be okay.

If that doesn't work, you will need to find a way to force fluid through the bleed screw at the slave cylinder through the system to push the air out.

Hope this helps.

KenB: I've read your thread on bleeding the clutch. I kept the pushrod from the original pedal assembly as the new master cylinder did not include one. Tomorrow I will measure it to make sure it is the right dimension. How long should it be?

LarryBible: When I returned to the car today, I found more resistance in the pedal than I had expected, but still not much. Perhaps that is the effect from some air working its way out. After I fill the system with tape on the bleeder screw I'll report back.

Any word on flywheel shimming?

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'Betsy the Getaway Car' : 1978 MB 240D, 582k
'The Mistress of the Sea' : 2001 Giant Boulder, 10.30k

Pretty notorious system to bleed and it takes many people several attempts, so don't be discouraged. You've read the threads so you know that people have taken different approaches. The oil can method seems to be a good one as far as I am concerned. It might pay to bench bleed the master and slave prior to installing them, although at this point you would have to disassemble to do so. You might just have to give it a few tries to get all the bubbles out. And, as has been said, letting it sit overnight can sometimes help out too.


Sounds like you got the clutch plate orriented correctly. As far as balancing the flywheel, well, I think you will get different opinions on that one. When I rebult mine, I didn't pull the flywheel, so can't relly help there.

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'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
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"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman

One method we used in the truck shop almost 40 years ago, was to fashion a line from a brake bleeder screw to the slave cylinder bleeder screw. You can then open both and have someone press the brake pedal, close the brake bleeder and then have the assistant release the brake pedal then open the screw, press the brake pedal and so on.

This allows the pressure from the brakes to force fluid bottom up through the clutch system. It's a PITA just finding the right tubing, but it works.

Hope this helps.

I've bled my clutch system many times, more than once after replacing the slave, once after replacing the master and a few times after just needing to disconnect the system. Some methods work sometimes, others other times. I don't think I've ever had the brake bleeder to slave bleeder work, but if you talk to stevo, he swears by it. I've had the most success with the oil can and two-man-clutch-pedal-slave-bleeder method.

On that note, make sure it's actually the hydraulics that are causing the problem. Make sure all the mechanicals are working (the master pushrod, as someone already mentioned, and the slave pushrod are all correctly seated).

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1983 240D 3.0T 4-speed manual, now sold

1989 Subaru GL Wagon 5-speed Touring Edition

If you've got resistance at the bottom but not at the top, your problem is not enough throw. If it's a problem of air in the system, the resistance will be uniformly low (throughout the travel of the pedal). You described more resistance at the bottom than up top, so I doubt that you have not bled appropriately.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think the short pushrod was 64mm (metal portion only) and the long one is 71mm. In any case, the difference was 7mm. Worked for me. The eccentric adjuster on the clutch pedal can give a finer adjustment to the throw but shouldn't be a deal-breaker on driveable/undriveable. 7mm too short is a deal-breaker.

Ken

I've got the white 64mm one. I'm trying to track down a black one now. A bit of a challenge, as there's no part number on this one.

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'Betsy the Getaway Car' : 1978 MB 240D, 582k
'The Mistress of the Sea' : 2001 Giant Boulder, 10.30k

I once installed the wrong throw out bearing and wound up pulling the tranny a couple times before I figured it out You sure thats not what happened?

I have had success bleeding the clutch using the brake slave but next time I will try the "oil can" method.

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

Yeah, don't be like me and wind up scrapping your car as a result

- Peter.

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2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Thanks for the encouragement, folks. I'm not to the point of suspecting the throwout bearing yet; I think I picked up the right one. At this point I'm running into the same problem as KenB--the part is not available from anyone, including the dealer. I asked my regular welder how he felt about modifying the rod, and he turned down the work. Going to the junkyard tomorrow.

Might as well ask here, too: does anyone have one of the longer pushrods they would be willing to sell?

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'Betsy the Getaway Car' : 1978 MB 240D, 582k
'The Mistress of the Sea' : 2001 Giant Boulder, 10.30k

I must be missing something, sorry, but you said you reused the old push rod? So the "body" of the slave cylinder is different? I just used the old push rod and never had a problem. I found it a real PIA to swap them which is what I did the first time. DOH

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

This is the push rod for the master cylinder. The old and new master cylinders look the same outside, but they are different inside. The piston in the old master cylinder snaps onto the bottom of the push rod; the piston in the new master cylinder makes no mechanical connection with the push rod.

I used the slave cylinder as it arrived in the box, new push rod and all.

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'Betsy the Getaway Car' : 1978 MB 240D, 582k
'The Mistress of the Sea' : 2001 Giant Boulder, 10.30k

OK, I meant "body of the master", then they are different, Those things are enough of a pain to install without complications, good luck.

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"