84 SD Ip timing question
 

Ok, so I was told that the IP had been removed from this engine, then bolted back on. Currently the timing marks aline, the car will start and run if I give it at least 25% throttle, smoking the whole time. If I let up on the throttle the engine dies.

I'm kind of thinking that the IP timing was altered from its setting when it was replaced.

Can I unbolt it and turn it a little to adjust it? is there a home way to adjust it? Does it require special tools etc?

I'm going undo the feed line and try and run the car from a bottle of fuel first to see if it's a delivery issue.

The 1984 may have the timing tang hole on the side of the injection pump. If so your checking the injections pumps timing chore is easy. If no port then drip timing the pump as at least a check is in order from your description. Methods of doing both are in the archives as it is a frequent subject on site.

For what we are talking about this symptom must have been present all the time since you purchased this car. If so it does sound like there is a good chance there is a timing issue with that pump.

Which timing marks?


You might consider other possibilities! Like maybe the engine was not even present when he purchased the car.

Good point.Your right. Assuming is always risky. I guess I should correct it to if the engine has always run this way since you have purchased it.

Should also have stated there should be more black smoke than otherwise normal out the tailpipe if the injection pump is off this far.

Just to clear up the thread, I bought this engine sitting on an engine stand. It's new, with a documented 1025 miles on it. The IP pump had been removed from engine as another person was going to buy it but never came though with the cash, so it was put back on.

It's this taking off the IP and putting it back on again that has me thinking there might be a timing issue.

On the front side of the IP itself and on the corresponding mounting, there are "timing marks" Or at least marks of some kind. They where lined up. On my old engine they are at least an inch apart, with the pump advanced toward the engine.

Since I had never seen this engine run, I have no idea as to how it did etc.

One note, this engine defiantly has compression. On my 300CD I can turn the engine via the bolt on the water pump, not so on this motor. using a 27mm at the crank and a LOT of force was the only way.

I know I could do better but for the life of me I could not get to the rear bolt on the IP to loosen it up. Your suppose to be able to access it from above with a 13mm but you would need one at least a 1.5 feet lon or longer with a ratchet end to even thing about getting it.

Even so, I was able to get my pump moved about 1/8 and inch toward the engine and get the timing closer to where it should be. When I went threw the steps mine was showing the pump starting to pool full on #1 at 21, should be 24...

Even the little bit I was able to move the pump was the difference between Idling and no idling.

I want to go in now and do a valve adjustment. Even though I know the engines new, I just want to know for myself. But I'll wait until I have a new valve cover gasket.

Anyways, heres are the instructions I went by. Found on another forum...

"
by Jim Mahaffey
After getting excellent advice on the list regarding injection pump timing for the 617 diesel engine (5 cylinder), I thought that it would be helpful to write it up for the benefit of others as a "one-stop" message that incorporates everything into one post. This method of timing is ideal for the DIYer because no tools are needed. Assumptions: The procedure requires, using our "subscribe to the list" questions as standards, moderate MB or general technical expertise and only a few do-it-yourself tools at Craftsman quality or above (we'll set the "floor" level on tools for DIYers as Craftsman = minimum quality needed). Go ahead and cringe, Stu, George, Nick, Doug and others: I know you want to! Tools needed for injection pump timing:
1. Floor jack and stands
2. 27 mm socket and long ratchet or breaker-length bar
3. Heavy duty prybar
4. 8 mm 1/4" drive socket with ratchet and long extension
5. 8 mm closed end wrench
6. 17 mm wrench
7. 13 mm combination wrench
8. Small block of wood
8. High quality paper towels (Bounty or above)
9. An extra set of eyes to watch the #1 injection valve to determine timing

Additional tips:
1. Your 1/2" drive ratcheting torque wrench will make an excellent long ratchet for this job.
2. If you have an Ace Hardware Store in your area, by all means buy a 13 mm Ace Professional Gear Wrench combination ratchet. This tool is open-ended at one end and has a "ratcheting" (literally) box end at the other end. It is a very well-made tool, yet it is also very small, particularly on the box end. Smooth, high quality finish.

Here's how the injection pump timing is done:
1. Assume cold engine
2. Remove the #1 injection line. [Don't take anything off of the injection pump except the injector pipe. If you even __think__ of removing anything else (e.g., the nuts that hold the valves to the top of the pump body), you will regret it!]
3. Jack up the front end and block it
4. Pump the hand pump several times to build pressure
3. With 27 mm socket and bar, turn the engine over at the crankshaft until you have gone through a compression stroke on #1 -- this will be noted by fuel coming out of the #1 open valve.
4. Roll the corner of a paper towel into a pointed end.
5. Twist and insert this into the #1 injection valve and remove all fuel. Note that you'll have to repeat this 2-3 times to get all fuel out.
6. Turn the engine over by hand until you go through the exhaust stroke.
7. Turn the engine until you get within 40 degrees of TDC (TDC = stub on crankshaft pulley).
8. With your helper watching the injection valve closely, turn the crank as slow as possible by hand until the point where your helper first notices fuel "welling up" in the bottom of the injection valve. [It will be beneficial at this point to mark the "bottom" side of the pulley with chalk to inform you, underneath the car, that you are getting near the mark.
9. Note the degree of advance at the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley. The correct timing should be BTDC 24 degrees +/- 1 degree.
10. Advance is accomplished by swiveling the injection pump toward the engine at the top. Retard is the reverse.
11. If your timing is within one degree of 24 degrees, you are finished. If not, continue.
12. Pregnant pause. Still with me? -- then go to 13 below.
13. If your timing is not within specs, you must first loosen the nuts that hold the injection pump in place. There are 4, and 3 can be accessed topside.
14. 3 of the nuts attach the IP to the engine toward the front (2 topside and 1 below) and 1 is attached to a bracket at the rear (accessible topside). The Gear Wrench greatly, greatly simplifies loosening the pump. The factory workshop manual illustrates the need to "bend" a 13 mm boxed end wrench 45 degrees to the left for use in adjusting the timing. You do not need to do this with the Gear Wrench. [Please note that this tool is __not__ a toy, by the way.]
15. There are two ways to adjust the pump: the Jeweler's method and the Neanderthal method -- both yield equally good results, both have their own inherent levels of risk, but they each require significantly different amounts of time. I prefer the Neanderthal method because my risk/benefit analysis suggests that this method is less risky to me, yet more fun. I will thus describe the Neanderthal method and, in parentheses (e.g., [ ]), will describe the Jeweler's method, where applicable.
16. After loosening the 4 "holding" nuts, loosen (but do not remove) the remaining anti-vibration interconnections between the pipes. [Jeweler's method: remove __all__ remaining injection pump lines.]
17. Using your judiciously-placed prybar, advance by pushing toward the engine with the injection pump. If advancing is not applicable to your timing, push from between engine and injection pump to retard. For advancing on the 123 chassis (300D), the area immediately under the steering adjusting bolt provided an excellent "prybase", with contact on the injection pump provided by the small block of wood. Please be certain that you do not put pressure on the ALDA unit on the top of the injection pump. If unsure what is meant by the ALDA unit, re-read paragraph on assumptions and discontinue process. [Jeweler's method: Same procedure, but less force is needed because of all lines removed.]
18. Please note that the movement of the injection pump with Neanderthal method is more difficult than Jeweler's method, since 4 of the lines are still attached. Why this method then, you might ask? Later, please. When moving the pump, it will seem as if the injection pump is not moving, but it is. The remaining lines are very stout and will be "springy" while adjusting -- look at them while adjusting, you'll see. Therefore, you need to hold the tension with the prybar and have someone tighten one of the front three mounting nuts for you to hold the new adjustment in place.
19. Recheck the timing, by first repeating steps 4-9. Readjust if necessary.
20. When the timing is complete, bend the #1 pipe so that the pipe attaches to the injector valve and injector with no force-fitting. It is critical that the line's nuts do not get cross-threaded. [Jeweler's method: rebend all remaining injection pump lines.)
21. Reattach the anti-vibration interconnections. Be careful to not overtighten them.
22. You have now successfully completed injection pump timing for the 617 engine. Now, contrasting the Neanderthal versus Jeweler's method: Neanderthal: Plusses: Quicker, more macho, more fun, much less danger of cross-threading. Injection pipes will "set" in new found position over time. Negatives: Harder to move injection pump (4 lines remain). Potential threat of damaging injection pump (very minimal if prudent). Jeweler's: Plusses: Easier to move pump (all lines are removed), Injection pipes are already "set" when manually bent. Negatives: Higher probability of cross-threading injection lines, less fun, messier (you have all 5 lines off spilling diesel fuel). Thanks go to Jim Mahaffey, Dan Penoff, Stu Ritter, and Bob Sanigar for their posts. Thanks particularly go to Jim Mahaffey for providing DIYers an alternative for a procedure that normally requires special tools inaccessible to most DIYers, yet still provides an accurate and methodical method of injection pump timing. It should be noted that the Neanderthal method should not be associated with Jim Mahaffey in any way. For those of you who don't know, Jim is a "closet" "jeweler" -- having studied and repaired hundreds of Mercedes-Benz clocks and other electrical and electronic components over the years. As such, the Neanderthal method is a "technique" that any self-respecting "jeweler," even "closet" would probably find reprehensible. However, to paraphrase someone who shall remain nameless: . . . it (the Neanderthal method) is really the educated application of real brute force. Back to Jim Mahaffey: I don't think that it's a stretch to say that he is probably one of the most knowledgeable individuals in the world regarding Mercedes-Benz clocks (the secret's out, Jim!). His presentation at StarTech last spring was a real treat for anyone in the audience.
Richard Easley
Waco, Texas"

Do you want to properly check timing using the port on the side of the IP............or are you going to screw around for hours using the drip method............which is basically useless for anyone who has never done it before?

Got it good enough to run. The dealer wants 400 bucks to time the ip. I don't have any of the special tools to do the other tests. The above instructions worked for me.

Those "witness" marks become meaningless when the IP has been completely removed from the engine. At that point, the IP needs to be indexed prior to being reinstalled. Then it needs to be precisely timed following installation.

That's what MB said also. They figured it was a 4 hour job to reined the ip and time it. They also said there was an O ring that needed to be replaced and some other things.. They charge about 150 an hour plus parts so the bill would be closer to 700 bucks. Right now it starts on the first revolution, runs like a bat out of hell. The only issue I see is smoking when you first start it cold which goes away once the cars warmed up.

I could do two or three in 4 hours. Plus, it is possible that it will time okay without the need for removal.


At that rate, they should work faster!!!

Sounds like what happened when I installed my IP 180 degrees off on my 240D.:eek:

It is a simple job by any mechanic with experience. About seven hundred to verify and correct timing is insanity.

Without experience it is easily manageable. Especially if you have the tang port on that pump. The device that locks the tang to insure correct pump installation is not even very expensive. If you have the tang port on your pump forget the drip method.

The hourly prices quoted above should inspire us all to do more of their own work:)

Ok where in this great big world is the "Tang Port" and what does it look like on an 84 300SD IP. Can someone post a pic please and Thank you.

Im a firm believer that MB does not want to deal with these car anymore, hence the outrageous prices they quote for any maintenance or parts. When I replaced all the tie rods on my 81 300D I got all the parts for about 60 bucks and paid a local guy another 40 to install. Out of curiosity I went over to the MB dealer and quoted the same job and parts, the price for the tie rods there was 1500 bucks plus 2 hours labor. so a total of 1800 bucks. I then showed them the receipt for the work already done including parts and questioned why exactly they where so much more... the counter guy was totally shocked and double checked everything, my "cheap" parts even came from the same place as theirs would...

Everything I have dealt with on these cars is the same story, I needed some of that branded return line between the injectors, My cost including shipping was about 6 bucks, MB price was almost 45...

That's not just a markup. it's robbery. It would make for an interesting article.