Project Smokey Wagon 2014! - Mostly just noob questions inside. W123 1985 300TD
 

I'm the new owner of this lass 1985 300TD : (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-cars-sale/362629-fs-1985-300td-maine.html).

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...psd6b26eab.jpg

I went from looking at a winter car to looking for a 300d... to looking for a 300TD. This is a second car/winter car / yet another thing to learn and tinker on.

I'll throw up some more pictures after I've cleaned it up, several on that FS thread.

This post will also serve as a bit of a record for myself and perhaps others.

I'm new to both diesels and Mercedes with all of my past cars being Japanese (I've only ever had Honda, Toyota, Mitsu, Infiniti and Nissans). So much research is ahead of me and this forum will be a great resource.

My goal right now is just to get the car inspected and on the road, followed by returning it back to stock and fixing/improving a 29 year old car.

Issues I'm aware of that need resolution before inspection:
(Any help is welcome!)

- Tires:

Starting to get cracks and have been sitting / will replace with dedicated winters soon

- Dash Cluster:

Tach dead, gas gauge intermittent, no lights on the cluster except: brake light, brake wear light and battery light are all illuminated full time with varying brightness dependent on engine load.

- Sagging rear end / bouncy rear springs:

Rear end is sagging down quite a bit (haven't measured yet, but clearly way too low). The rear is quite bouncy as well. Given those conditions and from my research that should indicate the springs need replacing. No clue if the SLS is operational and to what degree, but I believe I'll need to get replacement springs in there in order to find out.

Will update more as time goes on!

were you looking for a veggie burner?

the CA air filter arrangement on there, mmm fun.

Looks like a nice car! Rare color I think.

I don't have any interest or availability to run biodiesel, I'd like to understand the system better and potentially return it to stock.


As for the color, I think it was originally gold and has since been repainted 444.

Nice looking car. Bouncy rear indicates your accumulators may have a leak and need replacing. With a new set of springs on the rear the ride quality goes way up on these wagons. Enjoy your new ride!

Should I purchase the Mercedes Source guide on the SLS system?

I'd like to try and diagnose it properly before throwing money at it and I'm unsure if I should start with springs or accumulators. My plan was springs and then see where it's at...


I suspect and will do some testing today, but I think the alternator may be dead. It sounds like the bearings in the alternator are dying and creating a lovely whine. In addition the brand new battery was unable to start the car after a day or so of sitting and after a long drive the day before. So I suspect the alternator may be causing the idiot light and not charging.

The Mercedes Source guide is excellent, and makes perfect sense; I purchased it, but have yet to do as it suggests, low monies... I have a new pair of accumulators to install, and my SLS valve in the back is leaking, there is a guy here that sells a kit to rebuild it. I figure I will rebuild the pump at the same time, flush the system and be good. I'd like to get new springs as well, as mine has 205K on it so I am sure it is due. Also, I know that the rear subframe bushings are bad, not looking forward to that repair.

If you are so inclined, the early 90s Saab 9000s had a 115 amp alternator that will bolt in, but you will have to modify the wiring from the OE plug to ring terminals, and possibly upgrade the wiring.

115's quite a bit more eh, I think the stock is what 65? 75?

I'll have to do a search for a guide on what's different/what needs changing. Looks like the Saab alternator is cheaper than the Merc so the difference could be spent on wiring and I wouldn't feel too bad especially if it fixes my issue!

Replace the accumulators first, then see how you like the ride before replacing the springs.

If you want to test the old ones first, remove the center fitting and poke a pencil in the hole. If it goes in more than about an inch and a half, they are shot.

If the rear end still sags, you may need to adjust the valve. If the rear end loses height overnight, then rebuild the valve.

Welcome, and please post more photos. We like photos here. There are so many knowledgeable folks here, you will find that you need not go anywhere else for info on how to repair/upgrade your car......Rich

Thanks for the welcome guys/gals. I really appreciate it!

I'm trying to clean up a little bit of the car in addition to tinkering and diagnosing the issues. So the for sale pictures will have to suffice for a few, but when I get some time maybe this weekend I will take updated pictures of the cleaned up bits and more as I go.

Also first post has the issues I want to resolve for inspection- I have a gazillion more questions about the car and the bio system which some of you may be familiar with. Expect a lot of "What is this!?" posts in the future!

What's the best shop manual to get? Physical or digital?

You can get by, for the most part, with the free online service manual available at startekinfo.com (Mercedes provides this resource).

Click through >> MB Workshop Resources > Service Manual Library CD/DVD > Model 123 Service Library > Disc 2 > Wait for the silly intro to finish > click Accept > Click continue > then select model and year.

From there you can choose to browse the indexes for the Engine Manual, Chassis manual, etc.

As far as the WVO system is concerned, it looks like a Lovecraft (most popular in a CA car), and is not needed. I ditched all the WVO equipment on my cars years ago, even though I am in So. Cal. I agree with your plan to go back to stock. If you ever plan to run any kind of Biofuel, convert the fuel, not the car. B100, blending, solvent thinning etc. are ways to convert the fuel, and no equipment or modification to the car is needed whatsoever. In fact, the engine bay of a TD is packed already and the addition of alternative fuel system equipment just makes it harder to work on. Once you remove all the equipment, advertize it for sale, as I am sure someone will want it (not me of course)......Rich

Welcome.

Dead tach may be a blown fuse on the OVP relay.

See pics, the location is a generalization.

Dash lights are probably a failed/failing rheostat, or the dimmer switch, also when pushed resets the trip odo. Spin it a few times, they may light up, albeit dimly at best. It's possible to jumper the two leads, so when the lights are turned on, they'll be full bright all the time, again, they're dim at best.

The SLS has been covered.

Keep us posted.

Haha thanks, I will need to do a bunch of reading on what was changed and what can be left/bypassed or returned to stock.

Right now there is some electric pump that seems to come on with the key in the ignition in the ON position and another pump on the passenger side or some sort. Lots of learning to do.

Cheers,

Greg

Thanks toomany_MBZ, I will check both of those out.

You can look at the iFixit guide link in my signature to find a step by step on accessing and replacing the OVP relay fuse. It was the cause of my dead tach on my '85. The 1985 model year has a unique setup for the tach vs. 1984 and earlier cars.

Bosch pads, Bendix rotors, new rack damper bolt (and o-ring), wiper blades all around, front brake wear sensors, air filter all ordered up. Will also pick up new brake fluid for a FULL flush.

Coolant in the car looks new and it just had an oil change so should be good there.

SLS hydraulic system may need a flush/fill though. That's best to get from Merc?

Need to order tires too. Decided to go with Goodyear Winter Grip's (195/70/14) as they are very affordable and should give decent winter performance while not being too loud.

Also, going to try this pencil test on the accumulators and report back and then may order those up.

We all have many choices for parts vendors, but please use the sponsor of this site (Pelican Parts) whenever possible for ordering parts. I know you are on the other side if the country, but they still have excellent service and provide fast shipping. I have an advantage in that being in So. Cal, I can order parts today, and they will be here tomorrow. :)

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. If they can match or beat others I will use them.

This will be my charging issue post. I will update this post as it develops.

Symptoms:

1. Car is not charging the battery
2. Battery Idiot light is on (As are the brake and brake wear lights)

Info:

1. Brand new Napa battery (1 week or so old)
2. Trickle charged battery to full, reads 12.7 volts
3. With car ON engine RUNNING, battery reads 12.25 volts
4. Voltage drops the more accessories you turn on

Resolution Ideas:

Based on my research and the above info, I'm fairly confident it is a Voltage Regulator or Alternator issue.

I am not aware of a way to definitively test either of those at home so my plan is to pull the Alternator w/ Regulator and have it bench tested at Napa. Will that give me the data required to determine which is at fault?

Anyone have a go to place for looking up parts/part numbers?

Not sure what the bench test at NAPA will reveal or not. However, you can certainly consider pulling the voltage regulator (held in by two screws) to do a visual inspection. If the brushes are obviously worn, that's an easy diagnosis.

grab short #2 phillips crawl under securely lifted front end, find alternator,
unscrew voltage regulator reinstall with new, test voltage

If you live in the US, sign up for the EPC at epc.startekinfo.com

When you create an account you will be required to provide a valid US credit card but it will not be charged. It's only to verify US residency.

The EPC is the parts system used by the dealer part counters. It's the best source you'll find for that.

Good deal, I'll do that first. It's probably the original!

Well, perhaps oddly the voltage regulator had flat head bolts instead of Philips. One came out nice and easy, the other however did not. Couldn't get it out and was afraid it would strip so I'm mid way taking the alternator off- one bolt out and belt off. Will finish that tomorrow.

I also took the wheels off in prep for a brake job this weekend and found the passenger front side brake wear wire was cut. Luckily there is just enough left to rewire it.

However, since these activate the light by grounding the sensor, I suspect a cut wire would not trigger the light I currently have.

You want Pentosin CHF 7.1 fluid; I got five bottles on sale from ********AZ. I don't know if the sale is going on still or not... Do NOT use CHF 14, not the same.

Removing the alt can be problematic, but is doable.

You may just want to replace that brake pad wear sensor wire, get a pair while you're at it. Correct, you shouldn't have a light now, or ever with the wire cut.

Click on the Mercedes-Benz button at the top of the page.

Which brake light is it? The pad wear indicator is the circle with little dashes all around it. It lights up yellow, I believe. Then there is the light that says BRAKE, which lights up red.

If it's the red one that is unrelated to the brake wear wire, and instead is tied to the parking brake and the low-fluid sensors in the brake fluid reservoir.

BOTH of the brake lights are on: "BRAKE" and the Pad Wearing sensor light.


In other news, you'll all have to forgive my ignorance but I'm not seeing how to clearly take the alternator off. I have the lower bolt out, no problem.

It then seemed to me that the second bolt is shared with the tensioner adjustment that is connected via the rod. However, I've loosened the adjuster all the way out but the way the adjustment holder is designed I don't see how you can take the bolt out. (Seems like the large nut not the adjuster might have to come off, but it just spins.)

Something obvious I'm missing?

In other news, I removed the passenger footwell panel to inspect the OVP relay fuse- IT WAS BLOWN! So I replaced it with a fresh fuse of the same size. Would be sweet if that fixed the dead tach and it didn't blow again. Can't test until the alternator is done though!

EDIT: Need to get me that service manual!

Cheers

There are actually three fasteners (a combo of nuts and bolts) on the alternator that need to be loosened to remove it. The adjustment bracket comes out with the alternator, it seems. See this picture for location of the three bolts/nuts.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...-again-002.jpg

And see the second page of this thread for some pictures:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/285723-alternator-replacement-w123-2.html

Regarding BOTH brake lights being on, see this post from a previous thread:

Sweet, thanks for the diagram. I had 1 and 2 but not 3.

As for the lights, I had read that post. I'm hoping replacing the alt/VR (whichever may be bad, or both) will solve the light issues.

Greg

Bolt #3 may be a trick to get out.

On my '82 300D, I think, that bolt would not come all the way out, it hit a turbo oil line, or something.

I eventually removed the bracket (part #116) bolted to the engine. When I reassembled, I put the bolt in from the front and doubled nutted it.

Bolt #2 has a spacer in the middle of the adjust bracket, a trick to get it lined back up.

Thanks very much for the diagram, that helped.

Got the Alternator out- it does indeed help when you know which bolts!

Here is what I found when I removed the Voltage Regulator:

(Sorry for the potato quality pictures, my dslr motherboard just died)

https://i.imgur.com/Yty4pat.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/KTbaugp.jpg

So this is my first voltage regulator I've inspected but I'm fairly certain that one is bad...

So I'm going to *assume* the alternator is actually fine. That the VR brushes are toast and a replacement VR would likely solve the issues.

However, I'm slightly torn... for $50ish I can get a new VR for this old tired ALT or for about $120 it seems like I could get a much higher amp alternator w/ a VR (that will maybe work). This is a budget build/repair at the moment as I have other projects.

Those with experience with these cars, may I ask what you would recommend? Are the extra amps worth it?

After reading 20 pages of this thread regarding replacing alternators: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/93569-alternator-115-amp-bosch-al129x-works-123s-20.html

I've decided to spend the extra coin and replace the alt and vr in one move, upgrade the wiring along the way to 4 awg and probably copper terminals - whatever the local store has.

Since this car will be used in the winter I figure it's step towards keeping the battery in optimal condition.

My hope is that replacing all this will solve my interior warning lights being on, but at the very least it will solve the battery charging issue.

Oh and I found Winterforce tires for $41 a pop! What a deal!
Will be going with those over the Goodrich since the price is unbeatable.

I regret, the wiring of this alternator has me concerned. I have looked at it since I posted and I have lot of concerns about how to properly wire this thing in.

This post has a basic description of what should be done:

From (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/347231-legendary-saab-alternator-upgrade.html)

I haven't done this or looked at it to extensively but that's the gist of it- mostly just follow the old wiring with new thicker wires.

My new alternator might take a week to get here, but I'd be happy to take pictures when I make the swap. Next weekend would likely be the earliest that will happen.

Napa doesn't have any compatible ones nearby and all the other chains near to me want lots of $$$ so I think I'm going to order on fleaBay. Other 300 owners have been going through the seller: eagleautoelectric with good luck. Cheaper than Napa and free shipping.

In other updates... trying to clean a bit at a time. Vac'd the drivers side, shampoo'd the drivers carpets and gave everything within reach a once over cleaning. Fixed a rear reverse light that was intermittently going out.

Updated 12/8/14
Parts:

Bosch 115 AMP Alternator - Arrived
Stock turbodiesel badge (currently has a biodiesel badge) - Arrived
Replacement wipers all around - Arrived
Spool of 4 AWG cable for alternator and any grounds that need replacing - Arrived
Some sweet license plate frames - will unveil later
Idle Damper bolt - Arrived
Front passenger caliper - Arrived
Front drivers caliper - Arrived
Rear passenger caliper - Arrived
Rear drivers caliper - Arrived
Brake hoses all around - Arrived
Bosch Brake Pads - all four corners - Arrived
Brake rotors - all four corners - Arrived
Brakes wear sensors
5 Firestone Winterforce tires 195/70/14 - Arrived. Installed.

Not looking forward to doing brakes in the cold! I should have moved the 300TD into the garage... and left the s2000 outside. But I didn't.

New tires should be going on today, picking up tomorrow.

I don't know why I didn't think about connecting it directly to the battery; I was concerned about running a new line all the way to the fuseblock, which would be ideal, and also a royal pain in the ass. Thanks for the link.

As for the alternator, I have one I got from a local yard, $65 bucks with core! It's cleaned up well.

SLS info
 

Hey Hey

I'm rebuilding a w123 wagon myself right now.. here is the leading info on the SLS

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/271570-self-leveling-system-how-works-troubleshooting-system.html

Pretty awesome thread! Also I just bought some of the Hydraulic fluid for my wagon. NAPA can get it... If you give them the info for the fluid shown in the above thread they can order the equivalent... some stuff in a grey bottle from Germany...

Have fun with your wagon! She sure is pretty! I think you should put it away and keep it as a summer driver and buy a different car for a winter beater tho!! For Real!

Do you have a thread for you rebuild? I'll check it out.

Thanks for the SLS link as well, I'll give that a read through. I work from home so I am only out for an occasional errand during the week and then during the weekends. In reality it won't see too much of winter, it just needs to be capable of it.


I finished shampooing the drivers side carpets today and got started on the brake job as well. Top most bolt on the fronts are giving me trouble, the lower came off fine. The rears came off with no trouble as well.

The rear calipers are factory Mercedes- probably original. The seals on them disinterested on touch, so I'll be replacing them along with the brake line hoses. The fronts are both Bendix brand calipers. One of the front calipers seems to be in OK order, but the other needs replacing as well. So I'll just replace all four along with all four brake hose lines. Was hoping to avoid caliper replacement but it's for the best.

New rotors, pads, hoses and calipers should bring the braking back to near stock and should be a more enjoyable experience now as well as safer.

Some exciting stuff!

Once over on the drivers carpets:
https://ea5b79074b1d3f2ff8c7e829d09d...rs-Carpets.jpg

Yup!

Started on the brakes today and began with flushing most of the old fluid out. I will continue to flush it with each caliper I put on and then flush it again a final time for bleeding. Some progress was made... I completed the first rear caliper/rotor/hose/pads easily enough. Then I went to do the second one and - oops. Second rotor was wrong. I hadn't checked them all. Oh well. New one should be in Friday.

Moving on to the fronts... I was stuck with the top bolts on both calipers but after two days of PB Blastering they came off tonight. However, I need to replace one of the bolts due to some rounding.

That's as far as I got when I became distracted... I found quite a bit of water in the cabin unfortunately. We just had some serious 24 hour rain and there is a decent leak somewhere. Water in the drivers front, passenger front and some in the passenger rear. I suspect it's from one of the air intakes on the hood, but impossible to say for sure right now. Bit of a bummer, going to be somewhat difficult to track that one down this time of year. I've pulled all the carpets out that were easily accessible in the cabin. They were coming out for cleaning anyways so I'll just need to find that leak before I put them back in!

All my parts are here though, minus that one rotor so I'm hoping to be getting her mobile again by the end of the weekend... we'll see if I make it.

If the windshield seal is original, I'd put my money there.

I just had a new windshield put in myself, and I asked them for a new seal, which they did NOT do. So that too is on my To Do list.

Gotcha, I'll keep that in mind.

I'm pretty bummed about the water; I don't like dealing with water leaks! (Who does!)

After the brakes/alternator I was planning to give her a pressure wash including the engine bay with a fun afternoon of degreasing. So I'll add in trying to find the leak with the hose, see if I can narrow it down some. Hopefully get to that this weekend.

I'm still betting on the fresh air intakes, will also check behind the battery as I hear that's a semi common spot. I found one of the plug holes in the rear passenger open and a little rusty, but I don't see water coming up from that hole.

Based on where the water is pooling I'm thinking it's coming in from the front of the car- somewhere - leaking on either side of the front (drivers and passenger) and then following the electrical lines back into the rear passenger.

Seems like I had more water in the rear than I did the front, and my WS seal was leaking too.

check sunroof drains to.
also common point of leaks.

Louis