Am I the only one fed up with the 617?
 

Maybe I'm just trying to vent here, but I've about had it with my 617a in my wagon. I used to have great luck with my 300D's both non turbo and turbo. However this 300TD is testing my patience daily. Constant oil leaks, smokes like a maersk alabama when cold starting, eats turbos for breakfast, hiccups at idle, constantly loosens belts, etc.

I want to rip the engine out and throw a OM602 in it's place, the body is in amazing shape for a driver condition wagon and has great local history but this is the worst om61x I've ever owned.

Anyone else fed up with the OM61X engines, or am I a party of one? :eek:

-Mike
'81 300TD 4 speed

Probably a party of one....


but I guess we'll see as others weigh in.

They are frustrating, but so is any car which is not new and covered by a factory warranty. Having a car which is 30+ years old probably requires constant love ... Even when you replace everything with new within a particular system, things still can go wrong.

Well, on the smoking upon cold starting.... almost certainly could be fixed by putting new valve stem seals in.... perhaps if you just put one thing on your list at a time you won't be feeling like the whole ball of wax is going south... or just messing with you on purpose.... it is just a machine... it is just physics at a certain level... and you have lots of people on here who understand the frustrations.... but have real joy when it gets fixed right since that fix usually lasts a long time compared to other makes of automobiles we have known...

If it hiccups at idle it probably was run on veggie at one time.:DTo attack one problem at a time as a weekend task it might not seem so bad. Nothen better sounding than a happpy 617.Oil leaks come with all diesels and age ,the diesel engine will outlast any gasser .The 617 is an exceptional diesel known to go 600k with most of its orig. parts such as the injection pump ,you cant say that about internation 7.3 or cummins 5.9.The best advice is to get it on a rack for inspection .Not sure about the turbo issue ,describe whats going on here.

PeachParts lonely hearts club.
 

You're probably the only person I've ever say they were fed up with the 617.

You're a party of one. The OM617 is the best engine ever.

Dkr.

So you have a conversion?

How many turbos have you been through?

Is there visible vibration at idle? Does the engine feel rough?

Are you "driving Miss Daisy" or braking hard before each corner and then power sliding your way through?

I love your wagon, but...

If you were running a stock turbo setup and stock tune in the past these problems may not have occurred..

These engines were used in taxis, meant for reliability and not for winning races...

On top of all this you converted it to a manual which is awesome, but I am sure it adds to your frustration with the car because none of that sounds easy.

Best of luck-

The engines don't leak once you buy an Elring gasket set, pull the parts off down to the long block and reinstall. There is a thread here titled similar to "Leak free 617" that has good destructions on sealing so that it stays sealed.

I'll clean up the engine in the parts car and install if either of my SD engines have serious problems. These are solid cars once the neglect is remedies and the car can't be blamed for neglect.

Mine is fine. Granted I have not driven the car since last summer (do not ask), the motor starts and runs fine. Oil samples are okay for an abused motor.



Aside from the rear main, resealing the thing is pretty easy. Remove the turbocharger to make life easy doing the return tube... perfect time for that blocker heater install. :) Front main not bad if you just heat up that balancer to slip over the crank snout.

You are pretty isolated. Its an old motor but gratifyingly indestructible.

Eating turbos is a unique problem.

Reseal the engine, smoke and hiccups probably related, and sounds like you need to look at the tensioners for your Vbelts if they are constantly loosening

Turbo's are really simple and most people on here have no problems with them... IF your engine and turbos do not seem to be compatible I would sure look at the oil flow available to the turbo from the engine....

Smoke on startup also can be from leaky injectors.

The 616 617 motors are as close to bulletproof mechanically as any engine ever made. Once they are gotten right they will run with minimum maintenance for decades.

I love them.

Sounds like yours is knackered, probably due to not being taken care of properly. Maybe its been run on WVO which is particularly destructive, or just run on dirty or low oil.

My OM616 is one of the trouble free spots on my 240D.

A little backstory on the car.

It's a 1981 with approx 250k miles, maybe less. I had to swap to a mechanical speedohead from the original electronic speedometer when I did the transmission swap. The car hasn't ever been ran on veg. I'm the third owner, the second owner was meticulous to the point of a full fuel log in the door pocket with odometer read out and mpg at each fillup.

I've owned the car over 3 years and 50k miles, and I've done valve adjustments, engine mounts, engine shocks, oem valve cover gasket, egr delete exhaust manifold, grezzar monark 265 injectors, new injector hardlines, constant fuel filters, alda delete, manifold gaskets, adjusted the rack damper, etc. I've tried to do everything right on this car, and I use all OE and lemforeder parts.

The whole turbo situation is a interesting one to say the least. My original Garrett ground it's compressor wheel clean off (I chalk that up to my dad leaving a nut in the intake). I then replaced that with a used K26 off of eBay, the k26 lasted for about a year before it started smoking then came audible noise. So with the k26 in the dumpster I put out a mayday call to everyone local to me for a stock turbo, as I was trying to make a car rally event that I've been attending for 6 years. User justpassinthru told me over the phone that he had a stock Garrett he'd sell me, he came over but it turned out he forget he in fact had a holset hx30w that he bought off of winmutt. In a bit of a pickle I said I'd take it (regret). The holset was a smelly leaky mess, even with a fresh chra. I just put a factory low mileage Garrett on with my egr less manifold, and it is so nice to have a stock turbo again.

The trans swap has been smooth sailing for over a year now, I had a issue with two clutch slaves dying prematurely, but I finally wised up and ordered a OE slave cylinder. The trans swap is buttery smooth to drive. The only corner I cut on that was not hooking up the reverse lights, but I'm running euro 3 piece bumpers so I don't even have reverse lights.

I'm going to replace all of the rubber fuel line in a bid to cure the hiccuping, but if that doesn't solve it I'll start looking around for a used injection pump. The car was never ran on wvo, but it was ran on pump bio.

I'm also contemplating doing a mild refresh of the engine. Probably re-ring it, valve stem seals, valve job, head remachine, timing chain, tensioners. My dad is currently putting his om616 back together after all of the above due to a vacuum pump failure. So he already has the vital tools like for the head bolts.

-Mike

I'll have an '85 injector pump available soon. It works perfectly on my race engine but I'm installing a Dieselmeken M pump so the stock MW will be unneeded. Send me a PM if interested.

I'd reinstall the ALDA. It adds fuel when under boost - this is a good thing. I have no idea why the idea that there is a performance boost to be had by removing it. I have the timing slips that prove otherwise.

Dan

Keep me updated, I'd def be interested.

I actually agree about the ALDA, I took it off when I was still a teenager. I'd put it back on, but I backed the screw out too far on it once and broke it clean off. :rolleyes:

A new used pump with untouched Alda is certainly on the shortlist.

Owning two W123 300D's and replacing one failed engine, I think they have good and bad points. The worst point of all is the exorbitant cost of some parts ($550/piston), but that doesn't fault the design just M-B marketing extortion. I haven't yet seen a fatal problem like endemic cracked cylinder heads that plague some engines. My other old engines are 60's Chryslers, which were well-designed and rugged, though impossible to beat a small block Chevy on rebuild ease and cheap tuner parts.

The best part recently of diesel engines is that fuel cost is dropping and in CA we can run even cheaper "renewable diesel" which doesn't contribute net CO2 so can smugly drive around "greener" than a Tesla.

From your description of the turbo eating habits - I'd say that was understandable given the turbo's had already had a life.

The other stuff is just old car stuff. My solution is to strip everything down to component parts and renew as I go. It isn't necessarily the best thing for everyone else to do. I reckon others do just as well if you can try to enjoy what you've got!

Alda?
 

Untouched, no. Properly adjusted (they change over time), yes.

They're not that difficult to adjust per the FSM, and you can make them a touch aggressive if you really want. From personal experience (admittedly 60x turbos only) I agree that they are a beneficial part of the IP when working properly.

Not sure what I am hearing from you: Done with OM617s or perhaps done with messing with this flavor of old iron?

I tend to agree with others... in the years I have been involved with these old cars and with lists and forums, off and on since '95-ish, this is the first time I hear someone singling out the OM617 for hate mail.

I owned one that I figure had somewhere north of 500k on it, an old SD I managed to get cheap when w126 SDs were at the top of their value. I was happy to drive it for 18 months with the pooched motor, as I was underemployed at the time and could not afford... well, anything. But the whole car was a POS.

Not everyone is going to be attached to these cars forever, or maybe not forever in an unbroken chain.

Right now I have got to the point where I can't deal with mine full time anymore. The fun has kinda drained out of the whole thing. Not sure what 2016 will bring, once we're finished our northeastern winter. I am driving an old Lexus (the small, Camry-with-a-boob-job one) that someone else cast off, and frankly I am liking the near-zero-issues experience.

Not sure if that helps, but patience is finite and after what you've put your hand to on these cars, you can for sure be excused for getting to a point where stuff grates.

I like the OM 616 and OM 617 engines so well that I have declined to move up to an 87 300TD because it does not have the 617 engine in it, although I'm sure I would like the car!

The biggest shortfall I see on the 617 engine is the idiots (including myself) that work on them. I personally find them fairly easy to work on, once you get to understand the Mercedes mind set of how to do things.

I'm trying to work through the couple I have so that I have a back up to drive when the DD needs attention, thus avoiding the pressure of "have to" work on the car today to keep things going smooth in the household. There is always something that needs to be done on a 30+ year old car, and I recognize that I need to be willing to tinker with them on a regular basis.


Regards,

W.

Sounds like things that have gone wrong are just maintenance after being used for a significant number of miles. You should be good on what you've replaced. I wouldn't tear into the engine unless there is a reason. I would completely refurbish each system when it needs work or the wear indicates that it will need work soon.

EX: brakes - do calipers, pads (low dust, high quality), wear indicators, wheel bearings & hoses if you think the calipers are high mileage. Consider an OE master cylinder or not depending on mileage. I bought the OE master special order here and it is working flawlessly as is the entire brake system. Cardone reman calipers are also working well but sometimes Cardone is a crapshoot and I always buy locally for remanned crap if the price difference is so great that I decide to take a chance.

I personally prefer the OM602 (NA) to the OM617 (turbo) or OM616, mainly for the belt design, hydraulic valves, and a reliable Denso AC compressor. Increased fuel economy also helps. OM617 certainly is better for changing glow plugs.

As for things I am fed up with, the M103 is on the top of the list. Poor belt design, poor tensioner design, poor amount of space to work on the front, expensive yet simple ignition system, CIS, and overheating issues.

I plan to fix most of that when I install a 3.0 M103 into the car later in the year with Megasquirt 3, a better tensioner design, and an air-to-oil cooler. Still have to deal with limited space, unfortunately.

Ah... the M103. I have it in two cars, bottom end is durable as can be... the thing always seems to leak oil. Drives me nuts. One has a 40,0000 mile head gasket leaking again. :mad: I am convinced these leaked oil when new.

100% agree on the tensioner. I received about eight years of service from one and around 90k miles. It was okay for the cost I guess. Should it have had a mechanical tensioner? Yes. Change the belt by loosening the alternator.

CIS-E is silly, but once setup and not fiddled with... works fine for me. Mine never over heat. But I agree they should have had full size radiators. That makes no sense to me, when they heatsoak they are slugs in the summer.

I am actually deciding if it will be easier to install a V8 radiator in the 300SEL and make my own radiator hoses or get a custom radiator and use stock hoses. Either way the car will receive e-fans. Thoughts?



Best thing I ever did was a Sanden conversion. I know I sound like a broken record there. :)

I have to admit, I also prefer one of the more "modern" Benz diesels, my OM606. Aside from the glow plugs you mentioned, all the other benefits far outweigh the cons of the (one-time expense) wiring harness, somewhat annoying fuel leaks that are typically every 150k or so, and those nasty glow plugs.

Still, I feel the OM617 is a bit easier to work on, and is certainly the toughest engine I've ever seen fit in anything commercially available, and that includes the mighty 5.9 Cummins.

Really? Have you ever seen the internals of a Cummins B series engine? I'm guessing not.... because in comparison the OM617 internal parts look like something you'd find in a cracker-jack package.

You realize the Cummins engine is a medium duty commercial truck engine that is certified to be used with chassis weights up to 66,000 lbs? How do you thing an OM61X engine would do in such an environment?

You guessed wrong

My 617 has caused me more headaches than smiles.

Given the praise received on this board, I have clearly had an exceptional experience, but I very seriously doubt I will ever own another. Could have bought a SBC and rebuilt it three times for the cost and hassle I've had with my 617.

Sorry to hear that!

To me the 61X series engines remain the only ones in my experience that can sit forever in horrid conditions and still fire up with some basic tinkering and elbow grease.

I have had many 61X engines start in fields with a battery, some fresh diesel, and a little tinkering

So there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes?

... and after 5 603 turbos, two of them "rod benders", and a 602 turbo (early head) and several hundred-thousand miles, I have had excellent service.

The internet is a great place to get bad news and opinions, facts and praise you need to dig for.

Yep.

I'm constantly amazed at the praise heaped on the OM61X series of engines I hear on this site. Having owned at least 5 examples of the OM61X series over the better part of two decades I'm mystified at the descriptions of toughness and reliability I seem to hear on a semi-weekly basis. I've done full-rebuilds on two OM616 engines I've owned, both had less than 200K miles on them and the failure mode was identical, cylinders bores were 4-6X out spec for taper in the last half inch of bore travel. Both engines ran OK but wouldn't start at temps lower than about 20F and used a quart of oil every 700 miles. I've also had an OM615 develop a cracked cylinder head back in the early 80's - and remember this was a cast-iron head. Maybe I just got unlucky but I can say I don't have warm-and-fuzzy memories of my times in the OM61X. Oil leaks, valve adjustments, ALDA adjustments, glow plug replacements, drip timing, injector shimming, nozzle replacements seemed to be the norm.

By contrast I've never even had the cylinder head of any post OM602 series engines I've had in service - and the all have used zero oil and start at temps where my OM61X's wouldn't have a chance. They are smoother, more powerful and more refined. Don't know if they would start on the first compression stroke after sitting in a field for a decade but I suspect they would - have no reason to think the wouldn't.

Now that I think about it I realize I've got quite a few OM61X service tools in my shop. I've got a pre-chamber puller, drip overflow tube, and one of those a-b timing lights. Anybody that wants them please PM me with an offer because I'm pretty sure I'll never again own an OM61X engine!!!!

Neglected?
 

This one took a battery, R&R of a seized starter, a little starting fluid on 7y/o fuel and it hadn't been run in 7years, ... didn't even have an oil cap on the cam cover or an engine cover. Isuzu diesel. Diesels are easy as these old beasts are mechanical: suck-squish-squirt-boom-go. Not much changes if it isn't seized and the fuel is reasonably good.

(when I bought R2, and today)

Fortunately on the OM602 it's the same glow plugs as the OM617. Issue is that the intake manifold is in the way. I believe you can change them with the intake manifold in place, you just don't have much space. That may not be true on the turbo.

I would like to say in the defense of most Mercedes engines in general is that they are fairly durable. The M103 has its issues but I have seen many examples with over 400K miles. Same for the V8s and most other gas engines. The CIS system I believe is very reliable, it's just difficult to get it functioning 100% perfect if it has been neglected. 190Es are very popular for 24 hours of Lemons and other similar events because they are cheap and hold up well in endurance races.

Do you think neglect caused the dead motors by 200k? Oil was also junk in the 70s and 80s. Domestics lived no where near as long. Maybe that is why late 617s and 60X seem to have more miles due to better lubrication and more modern chassis/HVAC?

I bought my SD just after 200k...with a working odo. 207k area, it now has about 247k as I recall. It starts in low 20s without a block heater, though I prefer to not start it like that as I like heat. :) No noticeable oil consumption, just a touch of loss due to a lean on 5k OCIs. Put 22k on it in one year a while back.





603 GPs on my SDL at least, are not too bad. The rear four are simple... just pull the cruise servo and access is simple. I think No 2 is the big pain in the ass...seem to recall going through the IP lines to R&R it. I have not done them in years. I did a set on a 603 powered 300D once, I think I removed that washer tank then the cruise servo. Been around 10 years at least now.

I have put over 100k on one of my M103s, from about 200k to just over 300k currently. Did a valve job around 265k and the crosshatching was beautiful. Compression test a few thousand miles after yielded 160-170psi on all six cylinders, great numbers for a 9:1 static motor.

CIS-E hates me on the 560. I cannot get the thing to start properly to save my life. Once running, car is fine. :rolleyes:

I'm fine with a couple of 617s. They always start in TN temps with just a glow or 2 with synthetic oil and a fresh battery. Nothing expensive has gone wrong with the engine.

The 24V Cummins that everyone brags about has a temperamental injection pump that eats $1,000 bills and 4 hrs install time when it goes out. It also comes surrounded by a for looks only Dodge truck that falls apart around the engine.

The Mercedes with more miles and years is much more enjoyable. Unfortunately, the Mercedes isn't a truck with straight shift & 4x4.

Second that,

On mine ('83 300CD turbo) replaced trans & 2 nozzles in 16 years, oh, & the AC dosent work. <- but this is SoCal, no need.

-c-

Unless you want it for parts

Your not a party of 1
 

Yeah, its a party of 2. I feel your pain man. The later generation 602/603 , 606 turbo diesels, 6?? inline 6 cdis are way better than the 61x. The 603 I don't like because you don't have any room in front of engine to work. It's just too long. I've had lots of each. An 85 190D with a 4 cylinder or a 1998 , 1999 6 cylinder are my favorites. I've had lots of W124s with 602 engine and they are great as well. But my 1999 E300D is my daily driver and favorite i've had for comfort, economy , and ease of working on. No more pressed in ball joints or vacuum and linkage driven 4 speed transmissions. It has Drive by wire, electronic fuel shutoff. electronic 5 speed transmission that is solid , traction control that works great, abs ... It has 230,000 miles on it and doesn't leak any oil and turbo is dry as a bone and i've never fixed any oil leaks except the oil lever sensor and that is a 5 minute job when your changing the oil. Knock on wood. Overall

Oil leak are were terrible headaches on my 617s. Plus the fuel economy is dreadful for a diesel car. Then you ave all the linkages and vacuum stuff. Give me a drive by wire and electronic shutoff over all that stuff any day.

The 617 is a ok engine. People like steel heads but i have never overheated one and can watch the temp gauge so an aluminum head doesn't scare me. I think the newer engines are much easier to work on. You have to pull the intake off a lot of them but that is a 15 minute job with an electric drill once you get the hang of it. I'd give one of the newer models a try.

In my experience , the best way to buy a benz is one with around 200,000 miles from a rich person that serviced it well. I've done that a couple times and came out with great cars. The time i tried to buy low mileage ones -- 150,000 or so , did not turn out as good -- I had to fix more stuff sooner . At 200,000 plus miles, a lot of stuff has been fixed by the PO.

Rant over.

I like my 617, unfortunately it needs to come out for all new seals (leaking ~1 qt of oil a week, I believe from the upper oil pan), and probably new rings and bearings and rebuild the top end. It also seems to have a lopey sounding cylinder I need figure out. Not looking forward to what it's gonna cost to do that though, and the front end needs to be rebuilt too :/

I have had a lot more trouble with the older 60_ series engines than the 61_ series engines. Once the 61_ engines are put right you can drive them with routine maintenance for decades.

You are definitely all alone in this frustration. All machines of age require love and patience. The OM617 is an incredible machine providing reliable service when care for.
As others have stated deal with one issue at a time and you'll have it all wrapped up.

Deep breathes.

I am waiting for a scene in a future The Walking Dead episode where the only car they find that fires up is an old M-B diesel. Of course, like all other vehicles, after 3 years the battery would be dead, but it could be a manual shifter on a hill (in the summer), or I understand my 1984 300D can be push-started. Gas goes bad, but not diesel as long as it doesn't get the black slime growth (from moisture).

You're right. It would take a big hill without glows but once you got it started you could just never shut it off. Fun apocalyptic thoughts.;)

I've enjoyed debates with coworkers about my truck in such situations. Once all the gas has been siphoned from abandoned cars, we could still burn the motor oil, ATF, and other combustible fluids from the abandoned cars.

I loved the simplicity of the OM616 in my 240D and have a great respect for the engineering that went into the OM617, in my wagon. I used to own an older MB camper (1973 based on the big MB delivery vans) and it only had a 616 in it, 4 speed. The thing crawled up to semi-highway speed (maxed out around 50mph and severely challenged going up hills), but that little MB engine carried heavy loads in those commercial vans for years and years.

I owned an older Dodge with the 12 valve cummins in it, and was very impressed by what I saw while I owned it (ex. direct timing gear with no chains of belts). But the old guy I bought it from (it only had 60,000 miles) had to spend around $6000 on an IP replacement, so that engine had its flaws. As someone said, the Dodge truck built around the Cummins was nothing to write home about.

Both great engines in their own right, american vs german iron.

There are some great video's online that proof how these old engines are almost indestructible.

Here's one of two guys getting a wrecked and abandoned W123 to start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqVpUUeBzOw

And how about this 407D (Om616 I think?...) that they manage to fire up after 12 years of sitting in a field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2QBLauaC-Q