Shops Are Useless These Days

[Squiggle Dog]

Shops seem useless these days and it reinforces my desire to do everything myself. Example--I am rebuilding a 722.3 transmission in my roommate's car and did the rear crank seal while I was at it. I noticed that the flywheel ring gear was chewed up. We're doing this on a budget, so I decided to just flip around the ring gear and use the good side.

Most auto parts stores have closed their machine shops. The Carquest still had one open. So I brought the flywheel there and asked for them to flip the ring gear around so the good side was facing the starter. The looked at me like I was talking crazy and they said they can't do anything like that. They told me that there is no way to remove the ring gear without damaging it. I asked them if they recycled used oil, and they said no.

So I thanked them and went to the O'Reilly Auto to drop off the used oil. I noticed on their windows that they advertised turning rotors. So I asked if they could flip around the ring gear. They said no, but that any transmission shop would be able to do it.

So I went to a transmission shop that claims they can rebuild a 722.3 with their eyes closed. The owner said no at first, but then said he would show the flywheel to his Builder to see if he could do it. The owner came back and said that there was no way to remove the ring gear without damaging it because hitting it with a sledge would damage the teeth.

He said it would be better to replace the entire flywheel with a new one than mess with replacing the ring gear. I couldn't believe he said that! I told him that each flywheel is balanced to the engine and I would have to have a replacement one match balanced with the old one and then that would be more hassle than it was worth.

So while I was there I asked him how much it would cost to flush out the torque converter. He told me that they can't flush torque converters and send everything torque-converter related to a shop downtown--but the shop could only rebuild, not flush them. Whatever.

So I went to the hardware store and bought a MAPP gas torch. I heated up the ring gear, tapped it with a punch, and it fell right off. Then I put the flywheel in the freezer, put the ring gear in the oven at 400 degrees, then dropped the ring gear onto the flywheel. It was sloppy and loose on the flywheel until the ring gear cooled down. It was really that easy and yet no professional shop seemed capable. Wow.

[Deplore]

They don't want the liability, that's why.

[mach4]

They don't fix stuff or diagnose any more, just swap in new parts until the symptoms go away.

....I was going to say more, but i think I'll just leave it there...

[GTStinger]

Originally Posted by Deplore

They don't want the liability, that's why.

Seconded.
They flip the gear, then the customer does a chargeback or sues when some other component fails.

[Dan Stokes]

At various times in my life I've been at the other end of this funnel and it's no picnic. If you do these kinds of jobs you get all sorts of crap if it doesn't go well or (as GTStinger noted) you flip the ring gear and the customer comes back furious when his radio goes out, like "You touched my car so you're now responsible for my entire car for life." When you walk in the door they have no way to know if you're That Guy or not so most have taken the stance that they simply don't do this kind of work.

The other issue is one of making money. As parts availability has vastly improved it's more profitable to replace the part rather than rebuild it. One example - when I worked at the Buick dealer we relined brake shoes - a LOT of them - with riveted linings. We had the equipment to do it correctly and I can't recall a failure. Later on bonded linings became common and the steel parts got cheaper and it no longer was cost effective (either for the customer or the dealership) to do these in-house. And when we started installing these bonded linings our liability was shifted to the supplier which makes the insurance company VERY happy.

And so repairing stuff has become less and less common - for better or worse. Your home solution was excellent but understand that the liability now lies with YOU so if something goes wrong (say, the ring gear slips on the flywheel) it's up to you to handle it. So you can take that chance where the shop really can't.

I have a buddy locally who runs a successful repair shop where they do a lot of general repairs but also hot rod work and other "unusual" stuff (they had a Citroen 2CV in last month!). If they get into a situation like yours they have the customer sign IN WRITING that they are not responsible for the outcome in an effort to cover themselves. Customers are used to a perfect repair first time every time and these unusual situations don't always fit into that category.

Dan

[tyl604]

Dan - that is about the most logical and best thought out explanation that I have seen. While lots of us who fix things do not like it, this seems to be reality today.

[Mölyapina]

Originally Posted by Dan Stokes

(they had a Peugeot 2CV in last month!)

Do you mean Citroen or did Peugeot also make a car called the 2CV?

Originally Posted by tyl604

Dan - that is about the most logical and best thought out explanation that I have seen. While lots of us who fix things do not like it, this seems to be reality today.

X2. That was a really helpful post.

[BillGrissom]

I asked an Aamco shop about rebuilding a 1965 Chrysler RWD transmission that was out of the car and they told me they didn't have anyone on staff who could rebuild transmissions. They charge customers for what? Took it to a Cottman, but unsure they did anything other than wash it off and take my money since it still had the same "drain-back overnight" issue. I rebuilt a 1996 Chrysler transmission that had a "Certified Rebuilders" label and found they had re-used worn clutch plates by adding an extra steel plate and left off critical nut retainers. As I have aged, I learned it is easier, more assured, less stress, and certainly cheaper to do it yourself rather than deal with an arrogant "professional" who spouts nonsense while picking his nose in front of you.

[Zulfiqar]

I find such shop extremely shady or ill informed if they dont know how to R&R a ring gear on a flywheel. Every service manual shows you how.

Given the fact that my life in USA is only 5 years old, I lived most of my life in areas where such answer from an automotive repair shop would circulate really fast and that shop would probably lose credibility and tons of business.

If the shop is afraid of liability - then a work order waiver form and signature would seal it. If you guys say that they dont want liability then how come machine shops accept work like facing a cylinder head or replacing a valve or two?

Arent they afraid of liability that the same customer would come armed with a lawyer because their windshield wipers are smearing after the head facing job?

[Dan Stokes]

Originally Posted by Mölyapina

Do you mean Citroen or did Peugeot also make a car called the 2CV

Go back and reread my post. It clearly says "Citroen" (I just fixed it - brain fart).

Bill, AAMCO shops are independent franchisees and they vary GREATLY in quality and skill level. Some of them just do R&R of assembly-line trans rebuilds (EDIT: This is somewhat driven by liability concerns - if the rebuild goes bad they can charge it back to the rebuilder) and in fact do no actual transmission repair while our local shop here in Wilmington is EXCELLENT and has been for two generations (it was started by a Dad who is now semi-retired and is run by his middle-aged son who is also a real pro). It's difficult to know what kind of shop you're dealing with in these situations but I guess we know where your local shop falls in this ranking!

Zulfiqar - Yes, all shops are afraid of liability in this country and much of what they do is guided by that. Any shop without liability insurance is likely to be out of business in short order as some knothead sues them for some stupid thing or the other. The knothead usually backs off when they find that they're dealing with an insurance company and not just a shop owner. It sucks but that's the way it is. Many shops don't want to ask customers to sign a waver because they think it shows that they don't have confidence in their abilities so that's a 2 edged sword.

In the machine shop example you cited - usually the heads were removed and replaced by a third party (like my buddy's shop) so the machine shop is somewhat insulated from the customer. If you read the disclaimer on the repair order at a machine shop, most (maybe all) state that they are not responsible for secondary damages so if you take the heads in you're agreeing not to sue over a streaked windshield.

Dan

[Squiggle Dog]

It's interesting because the same machine shop that wouldn't flip around the ring gear removed and pressed in new rear wheel bearings on the 300SD's hubs only a couple months ago. It seems like there would be more liability in something like that.

I spent the later part of my childhood growing up in a small town, but you could get far more done there than in the city. I used to get ring gears replaced all the time. It's routine maintenance on old cars. If the auto parts store couldn't do something, the good old boy would have a friend or relative who would do it. Somehow or another they would "git 'r done".

I think that's a big problem with corporations--there is no flexibility. It's all a cookie-cutter, no-can-do mentality. Small independently-owned businesses are able to have creativity and can do what needs to get the job done.

Back in that small town I could get anything done. Nowadays living in the city, it seems that every time I want something done, I'm looked at like I'm either stupid or crazy, or told they won't do it.

I refuse to ever own a newer appliance car. My 1980 300SD is the newest I'm going to get, and I only own a vehicle this new because Mercedes did such a great job of engineering it to last and have old-world style mixed with modern safety and handling.

The idea of throwing out entire components just because one part of it fails is disgusting to me. I think that things should be made to be rebuilt and get rebuilt over and over again.

In fact, ideally I think the best model is to have only a few different types of cars, make them the same way indefinitely, and when they wear out, send them back to the factory instead of the scrapper and rebuild them into new cars. Look at all the materials that would save, and you would be guaranteed always having spare parts at the wrecking yard.

But then our world is based on the greed of the people at the top instead of practicality for the masses. They are more interested in profits today instead of long-term solutions.

[resto108]

I have had this experience also. I hardly even ask around anymore, I just figure out how to do it myself. I was surprised at how easy it is to flip one. Mine was a 59 F100. I didn't even chill the flywheel, just flipped the gear over and tapped it back on while it was still warm.

[Clemson88]

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

I find such shop extremely shady or ill informed if they dont know how to R&R a ring gear on a flywheel. Every service manual shows you how.

Given the fact that my life in USA is only 5 years old, I lived most of my life in areas where such answer from an automotive repair shop would circulate really fast and that shop would probably lose credibility and tons of business.

If the shop is afraid of liability - then a work order waiver form and signature would seal it. If you guys say that they dont want liability then how come machine shops accept work like facing a cylinder head or replacing a valve or two?

Arent they afraid of liability that the same customer would come armed with a lawyer because their windshield wipers are smearing after the head facing job?

Machine shops don't remove heads from car. That's the mechanic's job. Mechanics take the liability/risk of the machinist work and insulate the customers. They also charge an arm and a leg for a head gasket or valve job.

I'm not trying to be obstinate but if a shop isn't comfortable taking the risk of doing a job then they have the right to refuse the job. Unless you accuse them of racism or some other PC stuff they seem to be in the right about this issue. So far, it's still America.

You say they are worthless, I agree. They aren't worried about the liability as much as they are worried about their bottom line. They can take a lot less risk on a job which is much quicker and less complicated (in their opinion) than flipping a flywheel ring.

It's pretty clear you know what you're doing with this project so they also know they can't blow smoke up your shorts. I'd say they are deceitful and just want taller cotton to pick so they won't have to bend over. You should post their name so folks can know to call someone else when they need help.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by GTStinger

Seconded.
They flip the gear, then the customer does a chargeback or sues when some other component fails.

Yes. I saw that on one of the People's Court type shows. A Mechanic did a fix but not a replacement of a part but also charged less.

The Customer took him to Court and the Court ruled that the Mechanic had to warrant it.

The Court advised that either the Mechanic should have done correct job or refused to do the job if the Customer did not want the job done correctly.

So the Mechanic had to pay.

[Squiggle Dog]

Tell me this--how is swapping a ring gear different than removing and pressing on wheel bearings? They refused to even install a NEW ring gear onto the flywheel.