OM617 won't start
 

So I will preface this with I'm putting this engine in a Range Rover Classic

I have it all plumbed and installed.

I just put new glowplugs in last night.

It's putting out grey smoke from the turbo.

I have fuel going in. I clean d the injectors as well.

I'm using the stock new Bosch starter on it. It doesn't seem like it's turning over fast enough.

Occasionally it sounds like it's going to start. But it hasn't started yet in the last month of trying.




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I'll upload a video shortly


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Did you bleed the injection system?

Sixto
83 300SD

Yeah, crack the fuel lines at the injectors when you are cranking...

I'll try that. Maybe there is still a lot of air in the system


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https://youtu.be/1w0xN2MMRZw


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How about some basics out of the way, like did it run before? Was the injection pump off at any time? If so, is the timing correct? Are the glow plugs confirmed to be working?

Since it's a swap, how is your shutoff plumbed? Did you make sure it's not stuck in the off position?

Et cetera...

-Rog

This is the pump.

There isn't any vacuum hooked to it. As I understand it vacuum turns off the pump.

Or you can hook a cable to the lever on the side to turn it off.

So no vacuum is applied and the shutoff lever isn't hooked to anything yet.

The glowplugs are brand new as of yesterday. They are Bosch plugs. I just hook them to the battery before starting.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...6f0e600ec9.jpg


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This is while trying to start it.

https://vimeo.com/183235035


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It ran before it was pulled and cleaned up. I haven't done anything to it other then replace some gaskets and seals.

I can feel the glowplugs getting hot.


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Going to assume it's nothing drastically wrong if you had it going before...it's very close to biting...what happens when you floor it/push all the way down on the IP "throttle" lever if it isn't already?

It was painful to hear you crank the engine so long. Loosen the injector lines one at a time and crank the engine until you see fuel. Do this one line at a time until you see fuel at all 5 injectors. You should never crank the engine longer than 20 seconds without risk of burning up your starter. Once the engine starts how do you plan to shut it off?

It's an M pump, there's a lever on the side to shutoff.

I see air in both clear hard lines.

Old style primer pumps are prone to leaks, does fuel come out of the handle when you are priming the lift pump?
It may be time for a new design primer pump.

Also the rubber fuel inlet hose may have an air leak, especially if you can twist the line by hand when the hose clamp is at its tightest.

Fix those potential air leaks first, re-prime your IP (about 50-100 strokes), and then
crack open all five injector hard line nuts at the injectors.

Crank the engine (with the glow plug relay unplugged to save your battery), and re-tighten each hard line as they begin to dribble fuel.
They fill sequentially from rear to front (ie: 5, 4, 3, 2 and then 1).

Then plug in the glow plug relay and it should start up right away.

I thought the starters were extra beefy. Thought someone on the forum quoted the FSM that you could run it straight for something like two minutes without hurting it. Then you needed to wait a few for it to cool down before trying again.

In my 1981 300SD I ran out of fuel about three times before I stopped trusting the low level light. Each time I just put in about a gallon or so and ran the starter for something like two minutes. It pumped in the diesel fuel and started all three times. I did pump it up with the hand pump before hitting the starter but I never had to bleed anything. Was probably fifteen years ago.

I have primed the pump. The priming hand pump does not leak.

It only took about 20 pumps to get fuel from the tank to the IP.

The clear lines are the return lines from the pump to the filter back to the tank.

I have not tried to prime the pump more then 20 times. I just did it until I had fuel flowing back out of the return line on the filter.


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I have not cracked the injectors for awhile. I could try that again.


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It looks like something.... maybe fuel... .is leaking onto the engine mount arm.. if it is leaking there is the chance of air...

OP, where are you located at?

Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but are you holding the throttle wide open while cranking? That'll shorten your purge time considerably.

I've cracked the lines open at the injectors and cranked until I got fuel, but I've also just pumped the primer pump until I stopped getting air out of the IP and then cranked it over with my foot flat on the floor until it started. Under a minute every time.

What does the grey smoke out of the turbo smell like? Is it raw diesel?

Did you adjust the valves and check compression?

I'm located in Layton UT.

The smoke smells like burned diesel. But mixed with some raw diesel.


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As stated by the OP, the shut off lever is not connected and the shut off valve has no vacuum. Mercedes starters are strong but to continually crank the engine in excess of 20 -30 seconds is asking for trouble, especially when the presence of fuel at the injectors has not been checked. Put your hand on a starter that has been cranked a long time and you will feel how hot it gets.

The starter cranking speed sounds slow. Weak starter? Weak battery? Bad elec. connections? Combinations of the above? Faster cranking speed = more heat in cylinders. There is a minimum cranking speed required for the diesel fuel to ignite.

New battery, new starter.

The battery only has 750 CCA which isn't too good. Sears diehard batteries are really becoming garbage. I've replaced it 3 times now. They just die. I've had them just sitting unhooked in the Range Rover for a year and they won't charge.

I'm thinking about getting the batteries out of my Powerstroke to try to start it.

Maybe I should run dual batteries in my Range Rover. It has two battery trays.

I have the block and starter grounded well. I have used 0/1 gauge welding cables for ground wire and positive power.

I think that diehard battery is garbage.


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The MB diesel battery is 1000 CCA. If you are near an Interstate battery warehouse, they may have group 49 AGM take offs from Mercedes for $40

When you pump the primer pump does it get progressively harder to pump? Then you should hear a kind of squeal when the relief valve opens on the injection pump as the intended operational pressure has been reached with the primer pump. If not the relief valve is constantly open and the engine may not start.

Here are a few sound clips of 617's cranking at a few different rpm's
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/288677-starter-cranking-rpm-sound-files.html

In your video, I noticed uneven cranking sounds. Are valves adjusted? Did you do a compression test?

This one 164 rpm Video_030911_001.mp4 Video by funola | Photobucket

had a rebuilt starter but the battery was old.

I'll try to find one with a fresh battery/ starter cranking @ 180 rpm which is what's normal.

Edit: The cranking rpm is for info only for later on. If the ambient is above 70 F, your current cranking rpm, although not ideal, should be sufficient to start the engine if:

1. There is fuel with no air
2. Good compression in all cylinders
3. glow plugs working

It also will run on WD40 if you remove the air cleaner and spray it in the intake while cranking.

Which will immediately , if it starts, tell you that it IS the lack of fuel keeping it from starting....

Now waiting for those OCD handwringers who will say that that will blow up the engine... check the archives.. this is has been discussed and pronouncements ' ex cathedra' from moderator Hunter rule the day ... due not to them being ' ex cathedra' but due to the physics of the situation.....

WD-40 alone will not guaranty the engine will fire, BTDT. Engine needs enough compression and cranking RPM. I had an engine with good compression but a weak starter motor and I was unable to get it to fire by spraying in WD-40 due to very slow cranking (around 120 rpm).

True.... better to try ' starter spray ' in that case....

I would not recommend starter spray. Better find and fix the underlying issues. Adjust the valves, check compression readings, find the leaks and get rid of the air.

Ok, update

I just primed it 100x's. The plunger got harder to push as I hit the 60 mark. I got all the air out. But it seems like it should be harder to push. From experience using a plunger on other types of cummins engines.

Battery was charged fully this time. And was spinning a bit faster. I don't know if I have a fuel problem. I can feel the block getting hot as I preheat it with the glowplugs.

I guess my next step is to try to get a new plunger. maybe its not working correclty.

I'll try popping the injector lines at the block as well tonight, when i have some free time.

By the way, the engine only has 145K miles. I saw the speedo before it was removed.

I have never noticed my plunger getting very hard when I was pumping it up after running out of fuel. Also never think it got so much pressure that the pressure relief valve popped. I just sort of pumped it up for a while and then started it. I think you are supposed to keep the pedal on the floor while you are cranking it in this scenario.

i'll try keeping the throttle open all the way as well

As long as it got harder to press the relief valve was allowing some pressure to develop. You do not need the full pressure to just run.

Unless you have verified the lift pump is producing you could have someone pumping steadily with the primer pump while you try to start the car.

It is not wise to believe the odometer readings on these cars. You instead look for any form of collaboration you can find. For example at 140k I would expect the drivers seat to still be in good condition. Even as new is possible.

The original upholstery on these cars is very durable. Typically as the miles build up the bolster on the drivers seat wears to the point of being breeched.

I just love these ebay examples where the claim for milage is just 200k and the drivers seat shows substantial wear.

I am in eastern Canada where at one time we could find low milage examples of these cars that were totally rusted out for parts. They where only weak at best in dealing with the high amount of road salt used here.

Have you tried cracking an injector line (at injector) 1/4 turn, glow for 15 sec, then crank till it starts? Once it starts, close the inj line nut. If it starts that way, there is air in the system.

I know....and you also do not think anyone should pull the precombustion chambers no matter how many miles are on an engine or how many other potential problems have been marked off the list...
But a spritz of starter fluid... if that makes it start... means it IS a fuel issue.. simple cheap and fast... that fuel IS an/the underlying issue if the engine it not getting it...

Sixto and I mentioned that in posts 3 and 4.

Cranking speed sounded fine to me, imo...750CCA is plenty...I was using a 480CCA for years

I'm sure this issue will be something pretty simple if it's been going not long before.

As an aside, I hope your M pump is adjusted to give more fuel for your turbo.

Also, might check to see if the ' rate curve' built inside the pump needs to be different for a turbo .... not sure the correct words..... perhaps determined by a curved item inside the IP... ??? The assumption would be that above 2000 rpm the rate of increase of needed fuel would be more than the relatively straight line of the non turbo as a function of rpm...

Ok, so an update.

Just cracked each injector line at the top of the injector. Each one was able to put some diesel out. Doesn't seem like a lot is coming out. But i'm not exactly sure if it should be shooting out or dribbling out. So there's that.

I tried spraying some WD40 up the turbo. Still not starting.

I guess, the next thing to do is check compression.

Then adjust the valves, check the timing out.

Anyone have a write up on checking the timing on everything?

Thanks

I also tried to pump the priming pump while starting, it didn't make a difference either.

You said it ran before it was pulled..
only certain things get altered in the things you have done since it was running..
concentrate on returning those to normal...

I haven't touched anything internal. I haven't adjusted anything. I replaced a valve cover gasket and painted it. This is so stupid.

Anyway. Maybe the pump has died because it sat for almost a year before I tried to start it. its been a long project. The engine has been in the truck since last December. I just haven't had time to work on it. So I finally got some time. Plumbed all the oil cooler lines, coolant lines and fuel lines. There isn't anything electrical hooked up on the engine other than the starter and the grounding wires. everything else is stock.

i put a new fuel filter on it and a new oil filter before i installed it.

The car ran before and if you put a new fuel filter in that is something that was changed and should be suspect. I would take the filter out and inspect with a magnifier that all the gaskets and seals are correct and not damaged. Do you have the 01 or 02 fuel filter housing? In a diesel fuel system, there should not be any wetness from fuel anywhere and there should be no bubble like you have in the clear return or supply line at anytime. You definitely have an air in fuel problem and you should concentrate on fixing that before adjusting timing or valves.

If the system is primed, you should be getting a pretty fair amount coming out of each injector. Not a full on stream, but enough to need a towel for to keep things from getting everywhere.

I agree with some of the previous post as to cranking with the injector lines cracked open. It's easier if you have a helper that can crank wheel you open them one at a time. You should only need about 2-3 of the cylinders firing in order for the engine to catch.

Also, the lift pump might be suspect. Out of the 3 engines I've messed with they have all been crudded up and need of cleaning. But make sure everything is well bled before.

On the Jeep, we installed an electric fuel pump in line but before the lift pump. Seems to have improved the power a little bit and makes bleeding and timing situations much less of a chore.

Just my .02

An old benz mechanical IP dosent "Die" like that from sitting for a yr. maybe for 24, yrs, maybe.
Its frustraiting but step back, take a couple bong hits and think it thru again.

on Saturday, it almost fired up. I got lots of smoke, it kicked on for about 20 seconds. But I think the pump isn't working well enough.

So i got another MW Pump (used). I'll attempt to swap them out this week. hopefully it'll be the difference that the engine needs.

I've noticed a small puddle under my range rover. I believe its diesel. But I can't really tell for sure, I can't see a leak from the pump anywhere. But when I pull the IP, i'll inspect it.

Which pump is better?

The MW or M pump