123 = Economy, 124 = Expensive - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Capt Kirk · #31 05-29-2003, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DslBnz

Brake-By-Wire. If one isn't used to it, you will end up locking your brakes all the time. Plus, what happens when the alternator goes? Do they have a backup system? Or do you have no brakes?

They are Electrohydrolic, meaning that they are the std brake system with some Electronics thrown in. The car wouldn't be legal if it was brake-by-wire just by it's self.

Also, you aren't going to lock the brakes on the car since it has advanced ABS, they electronics part is to help responce time. The difference between an accident and a major scare is in those fractions of a second. Another thing, ppl get used to these sorts of things really quick, I wouldn't worry about "locking the brakes all the time", it's jsut a different feel, jsut like every other car has a unique feel.

Personally, I think y'all are being a little harsh on the newer cars. Sure they aren't all solid metal, but they aren't completely plastic either. Compared to other cars out there, they still have that solid, bank vault, glued to the road, feel. Take a Mercedes out on the Autobahn and then take the same class BMW and see which one you enjoy more.

Sure some people have problems, that might be why you can to this msg board, to find the anwsers (might explain why we have such a strong "they are crap" opinion around here). But remember, all cars have querks one way or another, some companies avoid them, others try to fix them. At least MB is the better of the 2. You want to remember all the bad things that MB screwed up on, but you rarely remember the good things they fixed, or had right in the first place. For example, on the 617 series engines you can get upgraded Starters to breather tubes. Why would a crappy car company go out of their way to upgrade 20 year old cars.....

I imagine that there were complaints just like this when the w124s and w201s and w140s came out, and now they are common place and accepted.

#32 05-29-2003, 04:34 AM

I agree whole-heartedly that MB's aren't what they once were. IMO, the last real cars Mercedes-Benz made were the 1995 W124 and the 1999 W140. In all honesty, the 2000+ S-Class (forget chassis number) and the 96-02 W210 cars are quite nice.. but the fit and finish isn't quite what we are used to with our old W123's, W124's and W126's.

The new E-Class and C-Class are junk, IMO. The fit and finish is horrible, and the car barely feels like a benz while driving it. The way the doors close, the switches operate, the overall driving experience and the overall appearance. These cars once offered the finest of materials, engineering and design. Now it's all about saving money "how can we build this car cheaper".

#33 05-29-2003, 08:59 AM

I do like a lot of the new things they are putting on the newer cars.. However I wonder how long some are going to last...

I am at a point in my life where I can buy any car I want.. I have been down to look at the new Mercedes , BMW and others for the last 5 years.. Drove them.. Climbed back in my 108, 116 or 123 and went home happy... This last year my wife found and wanted a newer coupe so we picked up a super clean 124.. She loves the look of the car.. But misses the quality of her 123 coupe.. You have to slam the doors compared to the 123 and 116.. The fit and finish is fair when compared to the Jap cars..

I have told her that I plan to drive my 123 300 TDT until I find some thing I like better.. It does not look like I will find some thing soon.. I have told her to keep looking for a car she likes better than her 300 CE.. Yesterday she said we were going down this weekend to look at my old 108 coupe I sold some years ago.. Seems the fellow wants to sell it.. I just shook my head and said well at least I know the car..

What is most sad is that I can buy any car I want.. but struggle with buying a jap car but do use the one the company got me.. Just can't bring my self to buy an other BMW but have had a few.. Can't seem to enjoy the newer Mercedes as most are of little better quality than a Chevy or Ford product.. I have started to under stand that many of my feelings about Mercedes seem to come from the contacts with the dealers.. Most are Ford or other dealers that have bought dealer ships and Mercedes owners are treated as 2nd class owners... Serveral times I have had appointments with dealers for some thing or other and been put aside because a Ford or other owner has done a walk in and they come first even if you have an appointment with your Mercedes.. But perhaps if my cars were newer that would not happen..

Ken

DslBnz · #34 05-29-2003, 10:40 AM

This is my main problem with electrohydraulic braking. I hate having the braking system brake for you. When you decide to come to a stop, you must press the brake pedal in a certain position and hold it steady for a smooth stop. If you brake normally, the car will treat it like an emergency stop and yes, lock up and skid(even cars with ABS can skid) it pumps 30 times per second.

I do not like the styling of the newer Mercedes, and I do think that the parts-sharing with Chrysler is not good. Another model I do not like is the 2006 S-Class(W221). twin oval headlights, tall, and with 19 or 20" wheels. WHO NEEDS 19 or 20" WHEELS? What happens when you hit a large pothole? Bye, bye wheel; it's destroyed!

DslBnz · #35 05-29-2003, 06:34 PM

As far as Mercedes quality goes. You're right about MB fixing a lot of things. But there are a few important things they never fixed and should have.

A really good example would be the 1990 - 1995 350 engines. These engines, as you know, failed prematurely because of a bent rod. Once the 4 yr 50K mile warranty expired, Mercedes wouldn't replace the engine even if the owner of the vehicle begged on his knees, but if he presented a danger to the company, they would likely cover him. Because of this the 350 has a bad name. And some of these cars have had updated engines with stronger rods and pistons. But nobody knows which ones, Mercedes won't tell us!

To this day Mercedes does not stand by those cars. That really disturbs me.

Maybe they won't stand behind these new cars with dual turbo chargers, dual air mass sensors, cylinder shut-off, intercoolers, etc, etc. Can you say V12 Bi-Turbo?
That's only my opinion, though, and I could be wrong.

Uggh,.. the amount of electronic garbage on that car makes me wonder if that car was built for going 200K + miles. I don't think so.

mplafleur · #36 05-30-2003, 11:33 AM

Honda Element?

That's the ugliest car I've seen since the Gremlin. Well, there was the Aztec too.

Zeus · #37 06-04-2003, 10:51 AM

Hey Larry,

Crappy about your 300E...

However, mine has been absolutely incredible. It has over 280,000 Km on it and the only major mechanical failure that I've had with it has been the water pump. In that case, the pump didn't fail, the seal did, and given the age of the car my mechanic suggested replacing the water pump as well, which I did. Other than that the car has been 100% reliable. I recently did my rear brakes and the calipers looked shot - the seals were gone. However, on closer inspection and research I realized they only needed new seals - the pistons were in perfect condition. These are original calipers with 280K Km on them. Pretty impressive, given that this car is over 14 years old and has been driven through 14 brutal Canadian winters with plenty of road salt. With only $45 in seals, both calipers have been repaired and are good to go!

The car still looks like new and hasn't rusted. The engine is still 100% original - original valves, guides, etc. How much more can you ask from a car? No way an American car would hold out this far in Canadian conditions and look like my Benz does. It truly amazes me how this thing simply doesn't rust. It has the original tranny as well and is shifting smoothly as ever. I get a tranny fluid flush and filter change every 40,000 Km.

I maintain this car very carefully. I also drive it daily and make sure it gets a good highway workout a few times a month. I think these two things are important. Driving it daily allows me to sense any problems before they arise. I flush all fluids regularily and don't let maintenance items slack. In return, I have a wonderful car that has never let me down. The only things I have spent money on have been minor things like the antenna mast, a few switches, brake parts and a tie rod.

I'm sure all car companies have their lemons, but I think the W124 is a fantastic series from M-B. I'm confident my car will carry me well beyond 500,000 Km. Even with an inevitable head job at some point, that's still getting your money's worth IMO.

#38 06-04-2003, 02:17 PM

Well some of the frustration that led to my starting this thread is now past me.

I got my flex disk and got it in last night. I was proud because I dropped the exhaust system, the driveshaft, put in the new disk and got it back together minus reconnecting the O2 sensor in 2 hours and 15 minutes.

I did not reconnect the O2 sensor because I had found a broken heater wire when disconnecting it. It was too dark to repair the connector inside the car. Good news about the connector is that this should fix my check engine light.

I expect to fix the connector and get my new door check strap in tonight and be back on the road.

In my current situation I hate piling miles on my 203 car, so it will be good to be back in the old quarter million mile veteran. Maybe I can drive it more than a week this time without something else breaking.

BTW, it's difficult for me to understand how anyone can drive a 203 car without being impressed. I get to drive it rarely, so it makes it a treat when I do. They are a quantum leap IMHO over their predecessors the 201 and 202 cars.

Have a great day,

suginami · #39 06-04-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryBible

In my current situation I hate piling miles on my 203 car, so it will be good to be back in the old quarter million mile veteran. Maybe I can drive it more than a week this time without something else breaking.

BTW, it's difficult for me to understand how anyone can drive a 203 car without being impressed. I get to drive it rarely, so it makes it a treat when I do. They are a quantum leap IMHO over their predecessors the 201 and 202 cars.

Have a great day,

Good good good. I was hopeful that you'd get the 300E back on the road.

About the 203 car: it is leap years ahead of the 202 and 201 cars.

How does it compare to the 124 car?

turnne1 · #40 06-04-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

A really good example would be the 1990 - 1995 350 engines. These engines, as you know, failed prematurely because of a bent rod. Once the 4 yr 50K mile warranty expired, Mercedes wouldn't replace the engine even if the owner of the vehicle begged on his knees, but if he presented a danger to the company, they would likely cover him. Because of this the 350 has a bad name. And some of these cars have had updated engines with stronger rods and pistons. But nobody knows which ones, Mercedes won't tell us!

That is really not true....up to a certain mileage...70-80K or so they would stand behind this engine.......PROVIDED that the owner had a documented service history and especially if they were the original owner .....the selling/servicing dealer also goes to bat for you in this situation
are they going to replace an engine in a car with 100K...NO...what manufacturer would?...you have heard about GM having problems with engines(the diesels,4.1 V8's and northstars)...do you think GM gave anyone help on a car with engine issues out of warranty?...I haven't heard of any
And many of the repairs(as I recall) were more than the car was worth so hence people tended to junk them

a few other points in this thread I would like to make

1. I owned a 1992 300D 2.5 at one time and put 135,000 miles on it...and ALL I replaced was a vacuum pump
2. I would not expect a complex car(all things considered) to be as trouble free ...but I for one am not willing to give up the safety factors dual airbags,traction control and some convenience such a stereo that sounds great(FINALLY!!)
3.Why would someone spend thousands(7K-8K) on a car that is only worth about 3K-4K...I understand economy etc...but it seems to me that is that was the main issue the only things that would be fixed were the items that were the most basic to transportation(getting from point A to B)...and nothing else..ie..power windows,AC,etc
4. As for the newer cars 210,220...I like them..I think the 210 diesel is a marvel and I think the 220 will outhandle my 140 all day long.....would I use the heated/cooled seats and navigation system and brake assist...ABSOLUTELY

if you really want basic CHEAP transportation should you be looking a t 10 year old Toyota Corolla,Camry,Honda Accord,Civic

all very cheap to acquire and VERY realible....in fact probaly more realible than the 123 series cars ever were

just my .002

Warren
1992 300SD 167K
Columbus Ohio

#41 06-04-2003, 09:50 PM

Well, since I spent the better part of the evening (and I only get one of those per work day) reading all the posts on this thread I feel complled to kick in some of my thoughts (free):

I'm new (fairly) to the forum and to MB ownership having sold my collector 79 Corvette (Top Flight winner but ate gas and was a Jimmy Carter era nightmare of pumps and pulleys...) and dropped the proceeds into my W124 95 E300. I love it and cannot image life without it. However, a dealer parking lot rear lens smash was corrected prior to my purchase. But the little "lamp" warning light on the dash was perpetually on and I was told by the broker selling the car "it's just a fussy computer that whines when the wrong wattage bulb is installed."

Mike buys the car and then my independent repair garage diagnosed it to a shorted "black box" caused by the broken and shorted tail light mishap.

Chink chink
...$215.

Then the windshield wiper started stopping where ever it liked! My garage fixed that and said it was part of the original short caused by the (you guessed it) rear lens mishap.

Chink chink
...$150.

Now I have driven the car for 6K miles and have been free of further problems. Had the car not had such a complex system of black boxes and shared electrical networking, this would not have happened. Just a fuse and maybe some wiring would have been all that would have been replaced (after the lens was repaired of course). This car, though an "8 year old" MB was getting complex even then.

Here is my wisdom on this and all repair issues - keep the time between break and fix short! Don't let a lot of issues pile up. My 91 Jeep I6 4L has 170K and I just put the 3rd water pump on it. I plan to drive it until it reaches 300K or more. This engine is a great one and with some good maintenance it should last. The formula is fix the problem as soon as the wallet will allow.

My expectations for the MB are equally high. I just returned from a trip to Dallas then south to Houston. The speeds ranged from 70 - 90 at times (I don't usually drive over the legal limit but I had to "test" a theory). I found this MB to be (the 606 engine) a wonderful cruiser - no vibrations and you could talk in a whisper at highway speeds. My theory? The MB made no more noise at 90+ mph than at 50 mph. I was pretty sure this would be the case but I had to try it.

My wife woke up to find me following several high speed cruisers traveling at near mach speeds (100+). I had tucked in behind them just long enough to imagine I was on the autobahn drafting an Audi and a Bemer...then she said "what do you think you are doing...?" Dream over. I love my Benz!

#42 06-05-2003, 07:06 AM

Suginami,

Yes, the 203 is also light years ahead of the 124 IMHO.

All,

I had another "session" with the 300E last night. I repaired the broken wire on the O2 sensor connector in the right side floorboard, no big deal.

Then I replaced my check strap on the drivers door. I'm glad the preacher was not where he could have heard me. I replaced the armrest not too long ago. The armrest has plastic pins that you put through the door panel and then melt in place, the plastic equivalent of peening a rivet. Well the &%*T%$&* arm rest broke while pulling the Chevrolet type door panel. What a POS!!!!!

I managed to get everything back together and the hooks are holding the arm rest in place. To be such a solid feeling car, it's amazing that this kind of crappy Detroit style engineering is part of this car. I would be willing to bet that the person in Stuttgart that thought up that door panel arrangement did not speak German and his English had a Michigan accent. What a piece of crap.

In all fairness, this car has 251,000 miles and has turned into a work car. There are certain things that I have allowed to get out of hand and let the car run down just a little. It needs a windshield, brake rotors on the front, a front bumper plastic piece ($450!!!!!!!!!!!!) some suspension work and a few other things.

Even with those things like they are, and the mileage accrued, the car still drives pretty well. I still think that when comparing the 123 to the 124, sitting in the drivers seat, the 124 is the clear winner, but being near one of these cars with repair on your mind and wrenches in your hand, the 123 is the clear winner.

How could we go about finding that American SOB that designed the door panel?

Have a great day,

edge · #43 06-05-2003, 08:07 AM

Well Larry, you're warming up to your 300E again which is good. After looking for a 3rd car for the last 2 months, I decided to get a gasser to complement my 300D and 300SD for winter and around town driving. My son just got his license last month and got a job teaching tennis this summer so he will drive the 300D. I was initially looking for a 90's MB diesel however they are priced about 30-40% higher than their same year gas models and generally with 60-80% more miles. And a VG conditioned 300SD is also rather expensive. I was looking for low mileage because the only thing you can't replace is mileage. So this weekend I will be picking up a 94 E320 with 79K miles. I expect the Mrs. will be happy with this one. BTW, insurance for adding my 16 year old son to the policy is frightening, ouch!

Chris Blanchard · #44 06-05-2003, 08:42 AM

I've now owned 2 W124s (91 300TE $matic, 92 300D 2.5 Turbo) and 1 W123 (85 300D) and 1 W126 (84 300SD) and I share some of your feelings about the W124.

My first benz was the $matic. I had owned several Volvos previously (240 and 740 wagons) and had begun to do most of my own maintenance and some of the repair work. When I got the $matic, I was sufficiently intimidated that I farmed out most of the work to my mechanic. Intimidation, plus the lack of space under the hood made it so I just couldn't bring myself to work on it much.

When I started becoming concerned about a (yet another) transfer case rebuild, I ditched it to some unsuspecting "civilian". I hope she enjoyed her purchase. Heh.

I then got the 300D which I really enjoyed. I picked it up cheap ($2500) and wasn't worried about breaking it since I had just liberated a bunch of money by selling the $matic. Hey, you sell a $11k car and get a $2.5k car and suddenly you're not as nervous, cuz you have money in the bank! Plenty of room under the hood, door panels that come off cleanly, overall a great basic car.

Drove that for 25k enjoyable miles, fixed it all up myself and sold it to my mechanic. That's a good sign that you haven't hacked a car up!

Like the 617 diesel so much I went and found a rust free low miles 300SD. (The 300D had rust along the rear arches).

Even more room under the massive hood! The only downside of the 300SD to the 300D was that the door panels were a friggin nightmare to take on/off without breaking one of those stupid clips at the top. In the winter the door panels were creaky.
It also had more electronics than the 300D (power seats) which I did have to fiddle with.

Put 50k miles (and fixed everything) on the 300SD and then one day I spied this clean 92 300D 2.5 Turbo with a FOR SALE sign on it. Pulled over and checked it out. Drove it, had it inspected by my mechanic, and bought it. Sold the 300SD in two days for full asking price.

So, here I am back with a W124 and the intimidation factor is back. I _tried_ to measure the timing chain stretch last week, but broke the breather hose (had to order parts) and then was unable to get a socket over the crank bolt so I couldn't turn the engine. Aggravating!!!!!

I will today attempt to change the transmission fluid and filter. I've done this job on the 300D and 300Sd a few times so I know how it _can_ go, but I will have to pull the radiator to get the fan shroud off so I can get at the crank bolt. Of course I am replacing a weeping tranny cooler line in the process - and the coolant does need flushing now) so pulling all that isn't the end of the world, but on the 617 there is PLENTY of room to work! I hope that nothing breaks as all this car's parts seem to be a special order (I suppose that's not totally unreasonable for a car that they maybe sold 2500 of for each of 4 years). If this were a 300E, I would fully expect everything to be in stock (like almost everything was for my previous diesels).

Larry, I completely understand your frustration with the W124, but I must say that the QUALITY of the ride of the W124 is so much better than the W123 that I _think_ I can put up with the hassle factor when fixing it. I mean I spend about 1.5 hours in the car each DAY and maybe spend 2 hours working on the car EACH MONTH, so I can live with it. Or my mechanic can live with it if I get too frustrated. Now that I have three kids, I don't have as much time to work on any car, so maybe it's better that I am not tempted......

Chris Blanchard
1992 300D 2.5 Turbo 147k
1996 Volvo 855 5-speed 95k (wife's)

gsxr · #45 06-05-2003, 11:54 AM

Sheesh. Well, I hate to be the stick in the mud, but IMO the 123 is an ancient old boat. Yeah they are tanks but that doesn't make them "better". And to the guy who said the 124 wasn't built to last 500kmi you are wrong. The 124 was built with that in mind. It was the 210 that was not. The 124 is equally well built, if not better, than the 123 - just more complex. And what people don't understand they are afraid of or badmouth without proper grounds. I have owned four 123's and three 124's. I can't wait to get rid of my now nearly-restored 123. MB made a lot of poor design choices on the 123 which I detest (multi-piece engine mounts, oil cooler hose 1 inch from V-belt, multi-V-belts instead of serpentine, adjustable valves, to name a few.) All of those things and more are "fixed" on the 124. The only advantage to the 123, IMO, is that it is more indestructible. You need to *try* to blow up the motor, for example. Most of the 123's on the road today are badly in need of complete suspension rebuilds, as rubber just does NOT last 20+ years! I rebuilt mine and the improvement is amazing - yet still short of the 124.

Larry, a few things:

First, the door panel rivets are not a big deal. If you read the manual, you will see that replacement arm rests are designed to attach with a simple screw & washer after grinding the old head down. That is BY DESIGN, not a "flaw", "cheap", or "crappy". BT, DT, and it works great. Much better than the 123 door pocket idiocy where the rest of the damn panel "pops" out, EXCEPT for the pocket tab? Brilliant.

At least the 124 is designed completely as a slide-up, no pop-out anywhere.

Second, what exactly has failed that is nickel & diming you to death? All I heard was a flex disc (twice), rotors (cheap), and a bumper part that you should be buying used (please don't whine about cost when used stuff is acceptable & cheap). Part of the issue here is knowing how to buy a car in the first place (not saying you don't, Larry, but many other people sure don't!

). If you buy a POS, don't badmouth the whole chassis because you screwed up bought a poorly maintained junker! Get a well-cared for 124 and repairs should be minimal. I've spent much, MUCH more money on fun things and upgrades for my 124's (Euro lights, Sportline parts, etc) than I ever have in required repairs or maintenance.

Third, where do you buy your new parts from? 124 parts are, in my experience, usually no more costly than 123 parts. Some are more, some are less, but usually pretty equal. Certain items simply are not practical to buy new and should be purchased used (www.car-part.com), especially cosmetic stuff or upgrade items (like my 143A alternator & leather door panels).

Finally, after working on both chassis for years, I personally prefer working on the 124 for almost any job compared to the 123. A lot of the design & engineering is simply MUCH better, the complexity issue aside. The 123 just is NO fun to work on. The 124 is almost fun. But yes, I too prefer DRIVING the cars rather than working on them!

Best regards,