Curious about engine damage reports - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Tirebiter · #1 01-21-2004, 12:51 PM

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of damage to our precombustion chambers from using starting fluid or damage to our MFI pumps from washing them down with water
when they are hot/warm.
Anything less than first hand information is hearsay, which is sometimes helpful but it is not being requested here at this time.

We have some very sharp working techs on this board as well as some very bright and logical novices (or non professionals if you prefer) that share their experiences with us. For that, we should all be grateful.

psfred · #2 01-21-2004, 01:38 PM

Starting fluid on a glow plug equiped high compression diesel can break rings, ring lands, burn the prechamber tips, and melt the piston crown. Occasionally it will completely fail the piston by blowing a hole in it. It will also bugger up the starter by stalling it under load when the ether fires early on the compression stroke.

I've seen engines where the rings and lands fell out in bits when the pistons were pushed out. Craters in pistons aren't uncommon either.

If it won't start normally, fix it.

Peter

kerry · #3 01-21-2004, 03:53 PM

Peter:
But do you know if that damage was caused by starter fluid?

I've seen similar problematic claims about not putting a turbo on a non-turbo engine but no direct empirical evidence of the problems

What gives? Old dieseler wives tales??

psfred · #4 01-21-2004, 07:50 PM

What else is going to blow holes in the pistons and FRACTURE the ring lands off the piston? Diesel fuel (unless the cylinder is full, in which case the head gasket will go, too) won't do this under any circumstances.

Ether explodes in the cylinders, diesel fuel burns. Melted piston tops might be a result of serious overfuelling or putting a turbo on a non-turbo engine (so that there isn't any oil cooling for the pistons), but the melt "craters" from ether are distinctive. Pretty common cause of dead diesel engines when some idiot uses ether instead of the glow plugs to start the engine. If you don't believe me, just go talk to an engine rebuilder, they see it all the time.

A friend of ours used to start his diesel tractor on ether all the time. However, about 30 years ago, the compression went, so he had it rebuilt. Rings fell out in pieces, along with the ring lands. He (and his son now) have used the pre-heater ever since, and the tractor still runs great. Just goes to show, it's got a lot more hours on it since the failure that it did at the time.

You can do anything you want, but don't come crying when you do serious engine damage by trying to use ether. If it won't start on the glow plugs, it's sick and needs repair. My 300D has 190,000 miles on it a start on the first compression stroke at 10 F.

Peter

engatwork · #5 01-21-2004, 08:20 PM

I have only seen one instance where something other than the vehicles fuel supply provided any starting assistance. That was on a full size Ford truck with a cattle trailer hooked to it. The guy was pouring gasoline into the air intake in his attempts to start it. I filled up and left before he ever got it started. You would not have believed the detonation noises. I asked him about it and he said the vehicle had ALOT of miles and that is what it took sometimes to start it.

dmorrison · #6 01-21-2004, 09:35 PM

My 2 cents.
I know you want actual first hand knowledge of damage due to detonation, using starting fluids.
Diesel is slow burn fuel. By adding any starting fluid you are going to have the fuel burn quicker and cause detonation. Here is a link that shows detonation damage to pistons.

http://www.acl.com.au/web/acl00056.nsf/0/014b681fc66eeab44a2563c6002578c5?OpenDocument

But would it happen using starting fluid for the short time it takes to start the car. I don't know

Some interesting info from a mechanical professor

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0BQH/3_46/99121270/p1/article.jhtml?term=

Heres a system designed for ether injectin in diesels

http://www.koldban.com/mainpages/systems/dm.htm

Another

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/ddc_prod/electronics/Profit_max/ether_start.asp

Just a few articles

Dave

fj bertrand · #7 01-21-2004, 10:28 PM

Thanks to dmorrison. neat links.

I've used "smelling salts" (ether) in cat industrial, IH, GM and MB diesels.

The key is--like anything else--knowledge. For my 84 300TD,
I was certainly desperate. Depleted battery, etc. You let the glow plugs go OUT wait about 1 minute, hit the air intake with
1.5 seconds worth of ether (count 1001, 1002) and then start.
the thing will rattle like death, but if you are desperate, it will work and no lasting harm. If the engine isn't running smooth, you can spray ether about 4" away from the air intake to smooth the engine out. Never hurt it.

But if you never used it, I would shy away from newbies employing this stuff. In the hands of the amatuer, it WILL take out your engine as others have reported in this thread.

If you overspray, you can damage the engine, no doubt about it.

Ether's a good assist. I've used it with lawn mowers, rebuilt engines, weed wackers, etc.

Of course Ether is contra indicated for cleaning grease and oil off of parts too. Try it. works good for everything except brakes.

Tirebiter · #8 01-21-2004, 10:51 PM

I am asking for first hand knowledge gentlemen, not urban legend or links to damage unrelated to anything other than MB diesel prechambers being damaged by starting fluid or our Bosch MFI injection pumps having been damaged by washing them.

fj bertrand · #9 01-21-2004, 10:55 PM

Hello Tirebiter--I gave you first hand knowledge
about using ether in my 300td. But, it's not for the weak of mind or will.

Tirebiter · #10 01-21-2004, 11:11 PM

FJ

I guess I missed the part where you damaged a precombustion chamber with starting fluid in your MB diesel.
I guess it's my weak mind, but I have passed every ASE test in trucks, cars, diesel and gas engine machinist, and paint and body. Add to that I owned a shop for 16 years that did nothing but rebuild and modify engines.
I have only asked for some real facts here.

fj bertrand · #11 01-21-2004, 11:24 PM

Tirebiter--Hello again. I never destroyed any
precombustion chambers in my 300td. In fact it's very well, thank you.

I hope you didn't take any offense but ether should be used NOT by the weak of mind or will!!

Most of my mechanical education was military in Korea, in constution or on the farm. In Korea, winter starting those Cummins NTC's with a crummy preglow in the intake manifold was pure torture. We disconnected the pre glows, hit em with ether and they popped off at about -15 below. We used 10W oil cut 20% with diesel fuel in the crankcase. (Something John Deere, IH and Case recommended with circa 40's-50's farm tractors when the oil "W" designator was non existent and the tractor had to be used in the winter.) Back to the Cummins in Korea, you only got 2 chances though, and then if that didn't work, we would have to use a 5 ton wrecker that was NEVER shut down to pull start the diesels. So it goes...

psfred · #12 01-21-2004, 11:49 PM

Direct injection, non glowplug diesel engines often used to have ether injection systems. You will notice that newer engines tend to have glow plugs and no port.

16:1 compression won't get up to ignition temp (about 400F) until pretty close to the top of the compression stroke (that's why they are so hard to start cold). A 21:1 (MB) or 23:1 (Volvo) diesel will get up to combution temp sooner, and with a glow plug running, all you have to do is get a combustible mixture to the GP for the ether to explode. Rough on everything.

As I suggested, go talk to a diesel engine shop -- they'll have some stories.

Peter

#13 01-22-2004, 11:14 AM

Gentlmen if you spray ether in to the "INTAKE" how can it damage the prechamber? It does not go thru the prechamber.For it to go thru the prechamber it would have to go thru the fuel system.
Yes it may damage the piston's ,etc. But not the prechamber.
Is this theory possible?
Charles

Habanero · #14 01-22-2004, 12:08 PM

Dad uses WD-40 once in a while on a 2nd gen. Dodge Cummins he uses at work. Just a small squirt into the air intake while it is cranking does the trick. I guess many aerosols are propelled by propane, so it wouldn't be much different than setting up a propane injection system.

#15 01-22-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie Mitchel
Gentlmen if you spray ether in to the "INTAKE" how can it damage the prechamber? It does not go thru the prechamber.For it to go thru the prechamber it would have to go thru the fuel system.
Yes it may damage the piston's ,etc. But not the prechamber.
Is this theory possible?
Charles

During th compression stroke, air is forced through the small holes in the PC tip. Some of the ether is forced in as well (Assuming it hasnt burned away yet from the compression heat). If it hits the 800*f+ glow plug the ether will explode (Not burn like diesel) faster than the PC can safely let the pressure out.

(The picture is of the 21 year old precombustion chamber that was pulled from my TD. Not from ether damage. This is a view from the glowplug port side. You can see the holes in the tip where the heated fuel exits. There are three larger holes on the other side.)