190E 3.0-12v Turbo - Page 17 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

nick.ged · #**241** 11-15-2010, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taint

I very much doubt that this was caused by not running a harmonic balancer, driving without the harmonic balancer in theory will cause damage but we are talkin over a long stretch of time.

Judging by the pictures Ed is right it looks like the pump was okay but there was shortage of oil supply to the shells which resulted in a lot of friction. Joreto any pictures of the crank

i am not saying it was caused by the lack of h/b, i havent had mine fitted for over two years... the posts crossed due to my answering a post from a few pages back.

RBYCC · #**242** 11-15-2010, 09:58 AM

I know many of you are trying to "reinvent the wheel" and ignoring many dollars of engineering and testing that manufacturers perform to provide a reliable product.

Case in point is the harmonic balancer...if it wasn't truly needed it wouldn't be on any engine.
Consider how much a manufacturer could make in profit by deleting what some deem as parts that aren't needed !!!

Below is a blurb from a Hinda engine builder..applies to any engine as it is basic design.

"Harmonic waves can travel thru the drive train and thru the crank. If there is nothing at the end of the crank to absorb the wave, it will travel back in the opposite direction to meet the next wave. This causes the unfavorable harmonic vibration. The first thing to take the abuse is the oil pump gear and you know what happens when that breaks. ALSO, pulling weight off of the crank that close to the center line will add ZERO horsepower or rpm capability. Don't fool yourself on this. Think of how big and thick the counter weights are on a crankshaft. The harmonic balancer is just another externally added counterweight that happens to absorb negative wave energy. Honda engineers were not stupid or naive. Don't try to out think them in this case, use a harmonic balancer."

I've yet to see any proof of power made by deleting the harmonic balancer, but can see engine failures on this and other forums..

I'll stay with my conservative beliefs and not think that I know more then those that designed the engine I use..!!!

Ed A.

Joreto · #**243** 11-15-2010, 11:14 AM

I've been thinking a lot about the harmonic balancer, and I still can't rule it out as a cause for the failure (might have played some role), on the other hand I run the 16v also without one for a long time, rev it to 8000rpm and had no problems what so ever. However just to be on the safe side and rule it out as a problem I think I'll keep it on this engine and try to get MS ignition running with the stock three teeth on the flywheel.

RBYCC · #**244** 11-15-2010, 11:22 AM

More harmonic balancer info to dispel the bogus info about removing it without any problem...
NHRA ( National Hot Rod Association ) rules for Top Dragster, never slower then 7.99 ET.
Harmonic balancer mandatory because they don't want an engine turning into a hand grenade during it's run down the 1/4 mile !!!

Note that the belief that damage may occur over a period of time seems to fly in the face of logic of a rule applied to engines running less then 11 seconds at a time...!!!

2008 Top Dragster Rules

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/5/2008

NHRA PACIFIC DIVISION
TOP DRAGSTER RULES SUPPLEMENT

DESIGNATION: T/D followed by car number.

Class is for dragster, altered, street roadster, or funny car-type vehicles only. Class will feature a 48-car qualified field (all vehicles must meet or exceed minimum E.T. requirement of 7.99 to qualify) based on the NHRA sportsman ladder. Handicapped start system utilizing a .5-second full tree with open top bulb and/or Crosstalk. Competitors may dial quicker than qualified time during eliminations; may dial a maximum of .20-second slower than their qualified time, but never slower than 7.99.

Minimum weight at conclusion of run: 1350 pounds, including driver.

Requirements for Top Dragster are the same as those for E.T. and Advanced E.T. vehicles- Section 5A and 5B of the NHRA Rulebook- with the following exceptions. Refer to the current NHRA Rulebook or rules revisions for vehicle/driver requirements, specifications, and general regulations.

REQUIREMENTS AND SPECIFICATIONS

ENGINE: 1

ENGINE: Any internal combustion reciprocating automotive engine permitted; any modification to engine acceptable. Four valves per cylinder maximum. Engine may be in any location in dragster; front engine only in altered, street roadster, or funny car. Harmonic balancer meeting SFI Spec. 18.1 mandatory

Harmonic balancers first became a subject of concern on blown cars that placed enormous loads on the balancer driving the supercharger. Now, any car running quicker than 10.99 needs an SFI-approved harmonic balancer to be legal. Companies like Vibratech, TCI, BHJ and others can supply the necessary legal part.

Roush - Yates builder of Winston Cup Nascar engines:
Roush Yates was diligent to minimize weight, and when the limits were reached, the company worked to lower the center of gravity as much as possible. For example, the harmonic balancer has been moved behind the timing belt. This pulls the engine's center of mass closer toward the firewall and also helps damp crankshaft vibrations before they reach the timing system.

RBYCC · #**245** 11-15-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

I've been thinking a lot about the harmonic balancer, and I still can't rule it out as a cause for the failure (might have played some role), on the other hand I run the 16v also without one for a long time, rev it to 8000rpm and had no problems what so ever. However just to be on the safe side and rule it out as a problem I think I'll keep it on this engine and try to get MS ignition running with the stock three teeth on the flywheel.

Remember you're dealing with an oil film in the thousandths of an inch.
Even the slightest torsional movement of the crank caused by a harmful harmonic can break the film and create metal to metal contact...
One bearing spins and under load more will typically follow..

My question as it always has been is the theory behind removing the harmonic balancer...
What empirical data shows any performance increase?
To me just a very costly and dangerous "urban legend" !!!

Ed A.

nick.ged · #**246** 11-15-2010, 02:15 PM

the only reason i have removed mine is so i can fit the toothed wheel on to run my timing.

i have seen no information saying the engine makes more power without one, and the post above seems to prove that there is no tangible gain from removing it.

i would, in fact, prefer to have one 'just in case', but haven't seen any failures on the 103 without one... unless this one ^ is eventually traced to the deletion of the balancer.

if anyone can come up with a way of keeping the balancer, and having a toothed wheel,i am all ears, the method of machining the front and pressing a toothed wheel on, as stated above, actually removes the balancing effect, as there is no rubber left.

i cant use the marks on the flywheel, they are long gone woith the lightening and balancing that was done three years ago!

Joreto · #**247** 11-15-2010, 02:56 PM

Ed, as Nick stated, most of us remove it in order to fit a trigger wheel for the standalone, and it's not just the MB crowd that do it .

taint · #**248** 11-15-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick.ged

if anyone can come up with a way of keeping the balancer, and having a toothed wheel,i am all ears,

you can use a toothed flywheel from 97+ w202, w210, w220, r170 i could go on but you get the point they all run a toothed 60-2 flywheel which is available in auto and manual.

a) bolts up to the m103/m104 with no mods to either running gear or engine (except in the case of the manual because its a dual mass flywheel so have to adjust the gearbox master cylinder)
b) allows you to use the stock crank position sensor location.

if you want me to post a picture let me know I have both lying around.

BAD300 · #**249** 11-15-2010, 03:40 PM

Ed, thanks for the written info & input!

Thanks also taint. This would negate the reason for removing h-balancer surely!

Joreto, & any of you guys running 8k rpm for that matter, I just wanna know

Seriously. Why are we revving the hell outta these engines that were never designed for such abuse? Sure, I can see how Roman gets the extra hp as it plays a part with the high-ass boost he's running but, unless your boosting rediculous poundage, why are we pushing the engines that hard? They are not Hondas for crying out loud. No offense intended whatsoever but I can't help but see a really dangerous exercise in damage from rvving this hard.

The Mazda V6 MX6 KLZE engine revs to 8k but it is an all aluminium unit that has very short stroke & it is designed to rev quickly & sure, can run at this high rev output. The M103/4, can't see it happening reliably but, that's only my opinion @ this stage

RBYCC · #**250** 11-15-2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick.ged

the only reason i have removed mine is so i can fit the toothed wheel on to run my timing.

i have seen no information saying the engine makes more power without one, and the post above seems to prove that there is no tangible gain from removing it.

i would, in fact, prefer to have one 'just in case', but haven't seen any failures on the 103 without one... unless this one ^ is eventually traced to the deletion of the balancer.

if anyone can come up with a way of keeping the balancer, and having a toothed wheel,i am all ears, the method of machining the front and pressing a toothed wheel on, as stated above, actually removes the balancing effect, as there is no rubber left.

i cant use the marks on the flywheel, they are long gone woith the lightening and balancing that was done three years ago!

Nick

I think you have to consider why race sanctioning bodies have mandatory requirements for retaining the harmonic balancer.

These look like they bolt to the front of the pulley...

http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d5.html

RBYCC · #**251** 11-15-2010, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

Ed, as Nick stated, most of us remove it in order to fit a trigger wheel for the standalone, and it's not just the MB crowd that do it .

I'm old school and admit that I know less then the team that designed the engine..
True power mods can be made providing they don't try to violate the laws of physics...

Do you think Steve Dinan has a bit more engineering knowledge then all the DIY MS guys combined on these forums?
What's "popular" doesn't make it correct !!!

"The popular method for making power pulleys on E36 engines is by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight alloy assembly. This is a very dangerous product because this damper is essential to the longevity of an engine. The substitution of this part often results in severe engine damage.
It is also important to understand that while the engine in a BMW is designed by a team of qualified engineers, these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics. I would first like to give a brief explanation of these principles which are critical to the proper operation of an engine."

The complete article below linked...

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm

Race engines in the USA aren't allowed to compete without a harmonic damper...

Definite reason that they are on the end of a crank....

That's why you have companies like ATI...

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/index.htm

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damperparts/trigger-shells.htm

Here is an SAE ( Society of Automotive Engineers ) on the subject:

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/sae.htm

I respect and admire the fabrication capability of Roman...
But he falls short in the area of technical knowledge...
Building a mega boost high RPM engine is a way to hide design flaws until it of course blows up....

You're seeing engine failures and no one seems to know why...
Perhaps poor design and application of same ?

BAD300 · #**252** 11-15-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBYCC

You're seeing engine failures and no one seems to know why...
Perhaps poor design and application of same ?

This is what I was aiming at when questioning the high rpm demands members are placing on these engines

I would definitely look into this more before I went over 6500rpm tbph!

Just my 2 cents worth

RBYCC · #**253** 11-15-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAD300

This is what I was aiming at when questioning the high rpm demands members are placing on these engines

I would definitely look into this more before I went over 6500rpm tbph!

Just my 2 cents worth

I couldn't agree with you more....

If you can't make "street" power with a M103/M104 or almost any Merc under 6500 RPM, then you are wasting a great deal of time and money.
Like Steve Dinan stated in his article "you can't violate the laws of physics"....
You quickly realize the "law of diminishing returns" and eventually "bang" !!

The only way you can stay in an 8000RPM power band is with a 5+ numerical differential ratio...

Talk is cheap unless it's backed up by a timed speed event....

I've torn up torque converters, transmissions and differentials...but not that often..and these were in "race" not "street" cars...

Never destroyed an engine ....

Oz 300te · #**254** 11-16-2010, 01:50 AM

I thought I should chime in with most likely causes for your bearing failure.

Most likely it was caused by detonation, with a boosted engine even the slightest detonation will cause big end bearing failure.
Detonation could have been caused by too much timing, octane rating of fuel not high enough, etc.

Or you had oil surge and a loss of oil at the pick up.

The harmonic balancer is very important and I believe you should keep it.
This is why I designed my own 36-1 trigger wheel that bolts to the front of the crank pulley, allowing you to keep the harmonic and can be installed with little trouble.

pm me if you are interested in one.

As for the twin cam engine I would not use it for a boosted application.

The comps are too high. If you use one I would get a thick head gasket made to lower the comps or use dished pistons.
Ideally you want comps around 7.5-8:1, as I'm sure you already know.
Thanks.

Joreto · #**255** 11-16-2010, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAD300

This is what I was aiming at when questioning the high rpm demands members are placing on these engines

I would definitely look into this more before I went over 6500rpm tbph!

Just my 2 cents worth

Personally I had the rev limiter at 7000rpm so I could have a bit more top speed not to make more power. If you look at the g-tech graphs, on my setup max hp is made ~5300-5400rpm so no more power is made above that. Actually when I look at the logs, my fastest 1/4mile times are made when shifting long before the stock rev limiter (shifting ~6000 - 6100rpm).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oz 300te

I thought I should chime in with most likely causes for your bearing failure...........

You are right, one of the suspected reason is detonation. If it was detonation there should be signs on the pistons and I'll check them when I have time to take apart the whole engine. Good point on oil surge, that slipped my mind....but if oil surge is the problem, wouldn't we be seeing the same issue with the other boosted engines ? As to the harmonic damper, this time I'm going to keep it on the engine. If it's not a problem, can you post a picture of you trigger wheel setup, in my opinion quite a few people will be interested in it. Thanks.