Quaif lsd
 

Ok here is the deal. I opened an account to buy Quaife lsd units and asked about the Qdf5v. It is available and able to import from the UK. I ordered one and am going to test fit it to both my abs differential and then an asr one. I did 3 qdf9v installs last weekend and one more this weekend and two more in the upcoming month. I will have to wait about a month for the qdf5v to come in and then the deal is if I can get an order of 30 units that there is a big price break. It should fit all the 210mm diff housings up to 2002 when they switched and then the qdf7v goes in. According to the epc any differential with the 210mm ring gear until then with the 2.7 to 3.06 gear ratios should have the same carrier. I am going to test fit as many differentials as possible before I do the final install in my car. I guess the question is then if this thing fits all these differentials then how much interest is there. Regular retail is 1350.00 I should be able to get the price down a couple of hundred if the 30 mark is reached. Again, this should fit everything from the w107 era cars to the w210 and 140 chassis and w129. I talked to Richmond about using spacer on the ring gears if other ratios are to be used and they said that was very doable and also I am measuring all the bearings and set up that Richmond sells for the later 210mm diffs. So far it seems as though they may bolt up within shimming range.

I'm looking forward to installing your 5-speed and LSD conversion into my 300CE when I have enough money. A project for next winter perhaps. :)

So I got the lsd in and installed it in the 3.06 ratio 210mm abs case. Some adjustment of the lash and pre load will be required. I also test fitted the asr case from a 500e with 2.82 ratio. It slid right in the case no problems. It should fit a lot of different cars. I looked in the epc for cross reference of the carrier it repl. and it is pretty much any carrier with the middle ratios from the w107 to w140 and w129 and the early w210 e55 case. I also figured out the c clips. I made new ones that snap in and out like the newer differentials.

Always impressed with the way you test out these ideas! How much would the LSD conversion cost in parts and labour?

The unit by itself is 1350.00 + shipping. The install would be about 250.00 including side seals, no bearings. I was thinking of doing swaps out for cores also. If I did a core swap it would be what ever I had to pay for the differential + the 1600.00 installed. Any bearings would be additional and a new pinion bearing would also have to have more labor. The side bearings would be labor included. This is not bad though. This would be most likely less than 2500.00 shipped. I will have to get prices on bearings and shipping on this weight to get really accurate. I can normally by differentials for less than 450.00.
Fun stuff though.

Russell, did you did a full install with the ring gear, bearings, and everything on the 500E ASR case? I'm still puzzled as to how the QDF5V can fit in there while the factory LSD does not (without modifications), as the Quaife appears to be physically less conducive to fitting compared to the factory LSD. Some photos would be great, btw!

:stuart:

Dave, I installed the assembly in a 500e asr case. I do not know what year for sure. I got it from Steve here that you have bought some parts from.
When you remove the side covers with the bearing races. The ring carrier slides straight back out of the case. Simply pull it straight out. It does not have to roll out as you have illustrated in the thread on benzworld. I will take some pictures when I get a chance. I am working late these days and it will be a few days.

Here are some shots of the different cases and the lsd in the abs case and I slide the lsd in and out the same as the stock open differential. You can see that once the side covers with the races are move out that it just slides in and out. The quaife lsd slides in and out just the same.

will this work w/ my 92 500E w/out any modifications to the ABS or ASR? Will both those systems still work?

Yes this will not cause any problems with asr or abs. It simply replaces the spider gear assembly with the quife carrier. Speed sensors are not effected.

What's the difference between the QDF5V and QDF9V models? A user on another forum has the latter for sale:
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/engine-performance/356570-f-s-quaife-lsd-qdf9v-12-bolt.html#post4151131

The different models fit different differentials. The qdf9v is the 12 bolt large diff in the new amg models. The qdf5v and 7v are 10bolt and only the 5v will fit our differentials. The 7v fits the differentials that repl. the older ones in our cars.
I can get the qdf5v no problems though. PM me when you are ready. I can also get a diff from the salvage yard and set one up for you. The qdf9v is a lot cheaper than the other models though because of the large volume of sales for both the amg cars and the chrysler srt.

Thanks, I'll be in touch when I've saved up enough for the next round of modifications (probably winter). I'm looking at swapping in a 722.6 and 2.8 LSD but both would need to be built to handle 1000NM.

Hey guys,Iv been looking into this for some time but have held off as i wasn't sure if i had the right diff or if there was anything even available for mine,i did try contact Quaife some time ago and didn't receive a response.Can one of you give me a small rundown on what fits what? i have a W202(M111),part numbers are R124 351 30 08 and 2273193 3.46

Cheers,
Paul

That sounds like the smaller 185mm diff. There is no Quaife for the 185mm diff. I'm not sure if you can swap in a complete 210mm diff or not. You should be able to install a factory clutch-type LSD into your stock 185mm diff, if you don't want to mess with a conversion to 210mm. Dunno how long the clutch pack will last with the kind of power you are making though - kinda depends on if you take the car to the track, autox, etc.

BTW, that first part number is for the rear cover, the second number is just the serial number of the differential itself. The last number is your gear ratio (3.46). Is this a 202.085 chassis, btw? The car looks awesome. Love that dyno graph!


:scholar:

Sorry the diff in your car will not work. You could swap in a larger diff from another car though and put limited slip in that. See if the subframe is the same as the c43 subframe. I have found that several different differentials will fit in my car from newer cars. Such as the w220 case. Then it is just finding the right
half axles. Beware thought this could lead down the road of custom half axles and a different or custom driveshaft. I have looked into this as a possibility if my differential can survive the future.

Thought this may be the case...Im not so keen on running the clutch type(from the W201?) so would go the extra length to use the Quaife,the car is just a streeter(though I would like to do a little autocross some day) and doesnt see all day hard driving,however a hint of moisture makes for some serious traction issues with the open diff.
Thanks!,I hoping to get her back on the rollers in the next few months to see how the new compressor wheel,new bypass,new exhaust and idle control tunes up...im getting alittle ichy after 8 months off the road.
What is the 202.085?

Im pretty sure they would not have changed the rear sub frame on the C43,i will chase up which diff it uses and get back to you!.

Cheers,
Paul

Ah ok its the 202 with 111.975 engine ,yes i have the 202.085!.

Spoke to my parts guys today it seems the C43 shares the exact same part numer for the rear sub frame so i would assume the diffs are interchangable in terms of case mounting.That would mean there are half shaft availible if there any different,not sure about the drive shaft though i would think its different to my manual's one.

The question is,if i went with a bigger case to run the quaife would i still be able to use a ratio close to my 3.46?....i dont really want to go any longer as i hardly use 5th as it is,even on the open road...

Cheers,
Paul

None of the quaife units are set up for this high of a ratio. I spoke to one of the engineers at Richmond Gear and asked about using a spacer for this exact situation. He said he has seen some pretty high hp cars use spacers. You would have to custom make it though with near zero run-out. I presume this would not be a big issue for you though considering your other fabrications.
The big question is what differential to use. The axles are not as big of an issue as these can be custom made using stock ones. The width is likely to be the only issue. I use the same socket and nut to hold almost all of them on so the diameter at the splines should not be an issue. You could also always use the inner joint from the donor car and the outer joint from your car if necessary and make the shaft fit both. I would check the w220 case for fit in your car. This would be a large 210mm diff and the qdf7v fits and a little known qdf8v for higher ratios fits. I do not know what ration but definitely a higher one.

Yes we could make spacers for sure!

Iv been through a few threads on benzworld etc trying to get my head around a couple of things im confused about...people loosely use the term 124 ,which im guessing is a referal to W124 chassis...where as my diff housing has a part # R124... which is not used in the W124....as far as i know,correct me if im wrong??.....

I called into the parts guys today and had a look at Diffs from the W201(tiny) W202(medium) and V8 W210(Massive)...my W202 R124 diff was the middle sized diff.. does this make it the 185mm? or is it larger than this?

Ahhh just found it...16V LSD uses my case(R124) where as 190 open uses the smaller case!

Did alittle more searching and found the W203 C240 uses a Part #210 case with a 3.67 ratio,the diff looks bigger than my 124 so im just guessing its the 210mm crown gear!. Also according to the mercedes parts listings the rear cover of the CLK430 should bolt upto this #210 case and allow it to be bolted to the W202(seeing as the W208 uses the same rear sub frame)

Then i guess its just a matter of spacers and the correct lsd?..

cheers,
paul

Before you get too nuts, check the case number in the epc and cross reference it. To see what other carriers it has. The only 210 case I know of that might fit the qdf5v is the e430, e55 case. It may be in other cars like the clk430 as well.
If it directly crosses over then it is simply making a spacer although that
might be pretty thick for 3.67 gears. That would probably be 8mm thick or more.

Good call,Wish i had an international copy of the EPC,I tried doing it the cheap way and accumulated 51 infectections before i could hit the shutdown button.

I did a brief check with my parts guys:

My 3.46 diff: 124 case,124 carrier.
C43 : 210 case ,202 carrier.
W203 C240 with 3.67: 210 case with 202 carrier(if i recall correctly)
CLK55: 220 case ,220 carrier

So it looks like i need to run the 202 or 124 carrier to be able to run the 3.46/3.67 ratios,i have been refered from Quaife to "KEVIN BIRD GARAGES LTD" still waiting on a responce.

You should be able to get a worldwide copy of the EPC via eBay, I haven't heard of anyone getting viruses from those (yet). For folks in the USA you can get an online subscription from MB for cheap (need a US credit card though).

I never got a reply from Bird's Garage either... I had to find a different distributor. Bird's is a BMW specialist, maybe they don't do Mercedes. :confused: WhippleM104 can get you one if you have trouble finding a distributor, btw.

:)

I did try to get a copy via ebay a few years back...he made me send $20usd cash only...which of course disappered in the mail,he had a good rating on ebay too.

I got a responce from Kevin at Bird's(Quaife UK say they deal with mercedes), they seem to think the QDF28V is what i need. I have sent him more info to confirm. they have quoted me $932 pounds + shipping. thats pretty steep.

QDF28V sounds like a typo. There is no QDF28V that I know of, and it is not anywhere on Quaife's website. I think he means QDF8V, and I'm nearly certain that will NOT fit your 124 carrier, as the Quaife is a 210mm diff and your 124 is most likely a 185mm diff. Oddly, the QDF8V does not show in Quaife's online catalog at the moment. There is no Quaife available - period - for 185mm diffs, unless you have one custom built ($$$$$).

The price from Bird's is a ripoff. You can buy direct from Quaife's website for £775 GBP plus £143 GPB shipping to Australia, total of £918 which is less than Bird's wants just for the diff! Sounds like Bird's is not particularly interested in dealing with MB fitments overseas.

Spec sheets are here, btw... note in the lower right corner the cross-reference to the OE MB part numbers. Two are 220- numbers, one is 215-, and one is 126-.

http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_diffs/210mm/Quaife/Quaife_QDF5V.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_diffs/210mm/Quaife/Quaife_QDF7V.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_diffs/210mm/Quaife/Quaife_QDF8V.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_diffs/210mm/Quaife/Quaife_QDF9V.pdf


:nuke:

Would like to think your wrong,however i get the feeling your not;)

If so then the only option is to find the large carrier with the right ratio...which i must say doesnt look too promising.

Thanks for the info,i should have a final confirmation by tonight,positive thinking says the 28V is going to be a new model...just produced this week for the 124 diff:o

The only diff with ratios above a 3.27 that I have seen in the U.S. is the #129 #140 case with the diesel and the l6 sl320 that have 210mm ring gears. I have seen 3.43 I think and 3.73. This would require a huge spacer though. This may be more than acceptable. The only differential I have seen is the qdf8v which is not normally listed anywhere that was designed to car higher gears. It is exactly the same as the qdf7v except were the flange is for higher ratios. I have seen that in other countries that the #220 case has high ratios for the smaller engines. This may be the way to go.

As far as getting any units I can help you with anything that you need. Give me a shout and we can work out the details.

Birds replied,they have not seen my housing with that ratio before so have asked for dimensions on the carrier...specifically L4..however with the qdf8v being the likely candidate in mind and the fact your saying it is identical to the 7v,I would say L4 is the least of my problems. I will head back to my parts guys for a descent look at the larger diff ratios through there epc. Interesting you mention the diesel ratios/I6 ,my parts guy suggested looking through them and the larger 6 cylinders too however we didn't search them all.

To be sure,I think it may pay for me to pull the diff out and have a measure up!?

Thanks,once we have a clear path we can look at the most cost effect way to approach it!

Cheers,
Paul

If you compare the tech drawings in my previous post, you can see that the 7V and 8V are the same, except for dimension L4... the 7V is for taller (lower numerical) ratios, the 8V is for lower (higher numerical) ratios. Unfortunately the part number in the drawings appears to be a diff carrier casting number, so it doesn't appear in the EPC, making it harder to cross-reference. I only know the 5V cross references for sure.

Most likely you'd need to swap in a 210mm diff from a different car (C43 perhaps?) and then put the appropriate Quaife into that housing.


:kid:

The C43 uses a 210 case with 202 carrier,of which i dont think the will be much use as the ratios are not right...however making the 210 case fit a W202 sub frame is easy as im pretty sure the C43 uses W208 rear cover.

I have has another look into the epc,turns out the 91 - 94 S280(non US model) commonly used the 210 case with a 140 carrier...ratios were 3.46 and 3.69 + a 3.92 with ASD. These were commen here so are easy to source. the question is does the 140 carrier carry the right size gearing to mate up with the quaife with or without the spacer...and will the quaife actually fit into the 210 case?...

If there is a good chance then i will buy one but where looking at 3-400 for the diff shoudl i go with it.

I am pretty sure the 210 case uses a 185mm ring gear. A guy on one of the other forums with a c43 built a limited slip with a 190 lsd in his. Also I have looked at the epc on this and have not found a common carrier to the ones that quaife will swap with. I think the only options are the 129/140 case with the qdf5v and the 220 case with the qdf7 or 8v. I know that the early 210 e55 have a different case that the carrier cross references to the qdf5v. I do not remember which case that has off the top of my head.
I think that the 220 case with the qdf8v is going to be the best option for the gears you are looking for. The problem is knowing what to get. Buy a used differential and measure the stock carrier and see if the 8v will fit before you order one though. This is what I did on the 5v for my car. And by all means keep us posted. I may want to go this route if I do not like the 3.06 ratio in my car.

Well I finally got around to finishing the setup and installing the quaife with the 3.06 gears. I have not done any full throttle digs from a stop yet but have gotten on it in some turns and it feels great. I can give it so much more gas in the turns and power through. It is so progressive in the torque transfer. I cannot wait to go back to the track and get the 60' times down.

whipplem,
How is the new lsd holding up?

Just a quick update on my part,i have finally removed my diff for inspection and all is as you guys have confirmed. L4 is ~38mm,L1 is ~125, 185mm ring gear. I havent measured but at a guess D2 is not the right size for any of quaifes either.

I will research the 210 case some more,im not keen on the 220 case,its massive and requires alot of extra work. i would look into a modified or custom lsd over this.


Yuk,whats all that black stuff in the bottom of my diff case? seems to be attracted to my magnet:P i changed the oil with redline synthetic a few years back.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4020_large.jpg

The rear end is working great. I have had zero issues other than the rear end being a little loose in the turns. It is completely undetectable until you ask for it to be there. I have been beating on my car quite a bit trying to get the tuning in for e85.
I would really look at going with either the w129 case or the w220 case. The qdf8v is the same as the qdf7v except the gear ratios. It is simply a matter of finding out what gears it was set up for. But I would guess by the L4 dimension that it is a 3.27 or higher. This is a 210mm ring gear. You can run either one piece rear axles or bolt up flanges. The w208 clk came with bolt in flanges with this case as many others. If I snap an axle this is the direction I am heading.
It is tempting to just go for the 215mm ring gear setup though from a w209 because the qdf9v is so much cheaper. It would basically pay for the custom axle halves.

By a little loose in the corners do you mean you have more grip under power but when you loss the grip you really loose it?.

Turns out theres quite a bit of metal in the oil,evident by the globe of silver infused oil around the end of my pickup magnet....iv noticed im getting some trans noise on deceleration...could be the diff or gearbox i guess. might be worth running a magnet permanently on the diff? . I compared the play to other diff units at my parts supplier,didnt seem any different.apparently replacement crown and pinions are very pricey!.

They are VERY pricey to buy new - totally not worth it. Then, the labor involved in the R&R is very difficult (borderline impossible) as DIY, and very few shops are capable of setting up an MB gearset properly (read more details at this link). The ROI on installing a new ring & pinion set is extremely low - I'd never even consider this unless you needed a very unusual gear ratio in a specific housing and were unable to find it used. Otherwise, I'd just get a good used diff from a salvage yard, usually $300-$400 or so. The three LSD's that I've built so far were all built from salvage yard cores and all have worked great.

:stuart:

Yes I did mean fishtailing.
The cost of the mercedes parts really makes you look at other ideas. I have been thinking that if my rear end breaks that I am going to get a srt8 215 mm setup. You can buy the whole thing set up with a lsd for 2,000 in almost any gear ratio. The getrag rear end for the srt8 is also an option. Some custom half axles and driveshaft and then you are basically unbreakable.

Whipple, do you really think you might break your 210mm MB diff with the Quaife? I thought that would be plenty strong for up to at least 500-550 crank HP.

:nuke:

Hmm im starting to think this is going to be more of a pain than its worth.
Im going to take all the measurments i can and put mine back in for the summer as its getting too late in the year to go custom mounting with custom shafts etc i will continue to look into the newer mb cases with the correct ratios (3.46 +) that i may be able to use with the later quaife units but i suspect i will always have the same problem with the crown gear offset as they are all made for autos,hence why going with a custom lsd in my original case may be overall a cheaper option for me both time and cost.

Paul

Quick question guys,whats the torque spec on the rear cover bolts,cant seem to find that anywhere!!.

Cheers,
Paul

Interesting,quaife sent this to Ross who owns the auto version of my W202,doesnt look like it will fit his however the part number is QDF28B! :)

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/DSC_0772.jpg

EPC
 

try this link for EPC "detali.ru" click on mercedes to the left.

Pagz
 

I was looking into a solution for the w202. I found that the w208 subframe and the w202 subframe update to the same unit. Axles and differentials will be easy to swap. The clk55 came with the 220# carrier and large half axles. This would be a easy swap for a 210mm ring gear and the qdf7v would be the unit to use. This would eliminate the need for any custom parts. What I do not know is the difference between the original subframes and if that would be needed to do the swap. The flex disc would be different also and require some looking into.

Merry xmas!.
=D This sounds promising,I was aware they shared the same subframe and used similar mounting plates but i didnt know it was a 220 case!

Paul

whipple: I took a look at the quaife website and they seem to sell the 5v units on-line, and made an email inquiry: they referred me to someone @ birds auto in the UK as the people that handle their mercedes applications. Short story is they sell a quaife application for the 500E (sent him my VIN – my car is 1992 MY) but he indicates it's based on a 7v "kit" with a slightly revised design. BTW, Birds costs is about 200Euro higher than the 5v on the Quaife website, so I don't want to be steered wrong. From the prior posts, it would seem that the 7v would not fit my case so I'm wondering if you or anyone may have heard of the birds auto folks and any opinion on the likelihood that they have it right.

He also indicated that i would use the same kit in my 1987 2.3 16v.

Any thoughts?

Their info is wrong. The qdf5v is for the w129 case in the 500e and the 16v is a 185mm ring gear and will not work with any to my knowledge.

Ditto what Whipple said. Bird's is wrong. The QDF5V fits the 500E. I have one in my 1992 500E right now.

There is no Quaife that will work in the stock 190E-16 diff, you'd have to upgrade to a larger diff housing - lots more weight for the 210mm setup, I wouldn't want it unless you had like double the stock power or something.

:nuke:

What available ratios would work with the QDF5V in the 210mm housing?