Big game hunting in LA
 

The cat wandered around for eight days without killing anything before they finally killed it.

How ironic, killed by the department that defends endangered and threatened animals. They did the wrong thing by using bullets. It didn't mention anything that showed it was a direct immediete threat. Only that it stared down a dog. :rolleyes: Poor tiger... I hate it when animals are killed for no good reason, especially endangered ones.

A tiger is a killing machine. at over 40 pounds, a hungry tiger will soon quit looking at people as family and start looking at them as prey items. Take some time to read about the Sunderbans. Those animals, beautiful as they are, will stalk, kill and eat adult humans. If it was in a neighborhood and hadn't fed for half a week, it was looking for slow meat.

I guarantee , as Narwhal implies, not F&G person is going to enjoy the assignment of killing such a wonderful animal.

The owner needs a severe spanking for letting an animal like that escape.

Nice try Bot. But we all know what's on your mind.

GUMBO!

I was very upset over the news but refrain from posting as it may be viewed as "political" by the moderator here. Now that you guys started the thread so I just chime in. I disagree the method they used. The cat had been roaming around for eight days, but yet no one wanted to wait for another ten minutes for the tranquilizer to kick in? Typical government workers, kill the very same thing they are sweared to protect. What a complete waste of a life.

Funny, Anderson 360 on CNN had a segment on exotic animals in America just the night before the tiger was killed. He said there are lines of millionairs willing to pay big bucks to shoot lions and tigers in a controlled environment for fun. Guess the guy who shot the tiger in L.A. just joined the million dollar boy's club. He got all the bragging rights.

All I am thinking is the guy that walked out to get the paper in his bathrobe like Tony Soprano in the wee hours of the morning seeing this thing face to face................and the load he would drop into his shorts about then.

If I know tiger as I think I do, you will never see it coming. Tigers do not hunt from the front. They always attack from the back. So.....you won't even have time to unload your last dump :D

good point......

They should have let it roam free, if it's eats a kid or two it's worth saving this beautiful animal from the clutches of an eager hunter.

Yea right.............hind sight is 20/20 foresight is a well placed 375 H&H...

I would much rather see this awesome creature in the wild where it belongs, belongs being SE Asia.

and from the sounds of it that comes to about $10,000/ Lb. :eek:

I do know of several places that offer canned hunts, the most famous would be Ted Nugents ranch but I don't know a single serious hunter that has ever stupped low enough to hunt on one other than TN.

I do know several wannabe's that go several times a year for deer and elk penned in.

Some of the pen's are 2000 acres and many come out without seeing an animal and others a pathetic 10 acres.

And for the record I don't support penned hunts of any kind unless they comply with Boone and Crockett's strict fair chase rules. Most fair chase enclosures exceed 10,000 acres and animal almost always wins......the way it should be.

Hey man if you include gas money I'm in the same club ;)

Elau, I understand why you are sad, but let reality check in.

The animal had apparently not fed for several days. Lets assume you're a man of normal weight and activitry. How many days would it take for you to get hungry enough to eat one of your pets?

Now assume you're a 400 pound obligate predator. Assume you live in an area inhabitated by 150# stupid animals that have neither claws nor teetth.

First, the incident did not occur in Los Angeles. It happened in Ventura County, some 45 miles NW of Los Angeles. Ventura County is NOT in Los Angeles (sorry, but that is one of my pet peeves).

Second, some additional information would help put matters into perspective.

I am very familiar with the area where the tiger was shot down. I have hiked in and around the ravine where he was shot. In my opinion, the decision to shoot the tiger was made in haste. Accordingly, a majestic, and nearly extinct, animal was needlessly destroyed.

The tiger (TUFFY was his name) was declawed and very tame. Tuffy roamed for two weeks in an area where people keep horses and other farm animals. In those two weeks, not a single kill was reported. No horses killed, no dogs killed, not anything else killed.

The trackers from the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture (not California Fish and Game) were aware of the fact that the tiger had not killed anything in over two weeks of roaming. That should have been the first clue that this animal was not your average, dangerous wild tiger. If it had been otherwise, the tiger could have easily killed and eaten a horse, a goat, or some other farm animal. There are also coyotes and deer in the area where the tiger roamed. Not a sinlge deer or coyote was reported killed while Tuffy roamed free. That fact should have made them think twice about using deadly force on Tuffy.

The ravine where Tuffy was shot down is rather narrow and steep. It is bounded on one side by a freeway and by a park on the other side. A little further off there are homes and, across a wide boulevard, there is a middle school. A Sheriff's helicopter hovered above the tiger and constatnlymonitored its movements. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many familiar with the hunt, there was no way that the tiger could have escaped the ravine, undetected, and made it to the area where the homes or the school are located.

Even then, it would have been an easy matter to lock down the school and warn the residents to stay inside. There was no immediate and significant threat of harm to humans.

It was possible to shoot tranquilzing darts into the tiger and then watch him for the next ten minutes or so while the tranquilizer began to take effect. Then, iIf the tranquilizers did not work and the tiger made a move to escape the ravine, the use of deadly force would have been justified.

The men and women from the Sheriff's Dept. were deeply upset about the decision to use of deadly force.

Although the trackers from the Dept. of Agriculture now all spout the same drivel: "we are so sorry about what happened" their actions speak otherwise. There were so many rounds fired at the tiger that, for a moment, it felt like the shootout at OK Corral.

I will not put the life of an animal above the lives of humans (unless the humans happen to be people like Scott Peterson or Michael Jackson, just to name a few that readily come to mind). But in this instance the actions of the men who shot and killed the tiger were unnecessary and reprehensible.

An equal, or greater, degree of blame, of course, should go to the suspected owner fo the tiger. He allowed the tiger to escape and then did not report the escape. Perhaps if he had informed authorities that the tiger was domesticated and declawed, the outcome for Tuffy would have been different.

the owner took a wild animal out of its habitat and then he attempted to "train" the wildness out of him for profit (tuffy was probably rented out to studios for movie shoots). When he failed to come out and claim ownership, the owner essentially sentenced Tuffy to death. Tuffy did not deserve to die the way that he did.

TIGER, TIGER,
by William Blake

TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder and what art
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? What dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile His work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

RIP Tuffy.

I'm sure the main thing going through FWS's heads was, if we try and tranquize or trap is thing and someone gets hurt in the process were toast.

If we kill this thing ASAP we get some bad publicity for a couple weeks and it's over.

You're probably right.

It is far easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

The only problem is that when things like this happen, and there is a public outcry, there is then a rush to enact laws to fix the problem. More often than not, the new laws or regulations do nothing to fix the problem and/or create more problems.

In the law, we say that bad facts often make bad law. This means that sometimes cases with bad set of facts are often appealed all the way to Supreme Court (Federal or state level). The justices then issue a ruling, in response to the bad facts of that particular case, which then has an impact on all other cases. Since teh facts of the case that led to the Supreme court decision are not likely to be ever be repeated, we are then stuck with court decisions that have far reaching impact.

A hungry predator is no long a pet, declawed, defanged, whatever. A week without food will cause humans to eat each other. It was just a matter of time before Mr Tiger started lunching on long pig.

Hungry dogs eat people. Look it up. And tigers have not been bred for companionship with man.

Only a freak would enjoy the idea of putting-down somebody's lost, healthy pet.

Go read about tigers. People who hunt them use tactics to prevent themselves from becoming a prey item. They're not like a deer that just wants to get away, tigers are smart hunters.

A hungry 400 pound predator is a killing machine ready to get in gear for the big event.

Second-guessing the decision is easy.

Don't be so quick to jump into that conclusion yet. There are many animal rights people are looking into the incident. If I have my say, I will demand the entire department fired!!! As a matter of fact, I have already written to the department demanding an explaination on why the area was not immediately sealed off when they spotted the tiger and use non lethal force to capture the cat. Their actions are simply pathetic.

this is such a freaking hypocricy... :mad: all those peeps with guns and they couldn't cordon the area off and shoot with a tranquilizer while keeping a bead on the tiger... BS :mad: i hope ELF get's them back for this...

Any tiger will avoid hunting human as its last resort. In India where they frequently roam, only the sick and injured tiger will prey on humans. They will go for other animals first as Benz-LGB stated. To shoot the cat down is just a quick way for the Department to end this fisaco.

A hungry animal goes after whatever is slowest.......

Why is it that the people that are so outraged about this don't care who the owner is, or ask why he/she never came forward?

A rational person would think that the owner is the one to blame!

Unfortunately MedMech, the 'Bambi" view of nature predominates.

I suggest folks who think a 400 pound hungry predator will will come to "kitty-kitty" do some basic research.

Reminds me of those two nitwits who thought bears would never harm them if they only smoke soothingly and acted non-threateningly. Worked fine until the bear ate them.

Anybody have any idea what the range, accuracy and efficacy of the tranquilizer darts is? How many times would it have to be darted? The tiger can leap 20 ft or so, no problem. Anybody want to get close enough to a 400# predator to dart it?

Look, I would never shoot a tiger unless it were a threat to human life. I am awed at the magnificence of those beautiful animals. Before you folks get all fired-up in condemnation, get some facts together.

Yeh, i got a problem with the owner too man. he should have let the authorities know. i also have a bigger prob. with the sob.. de-clawing a cat is rather mangella like and sadists shouldn't own any pets...

as to the tranq. darts.. i don't know their range but can assure you it's more then 20ft.. what, they never tranquilize any animals? come on...

Sure, all the time. But with large predators its always risky for both the animal and the shooter. Darts aren't very accurate and the meds don't act instantly. A large, intelligent predator can associate pain with a shooter and a high-speed hypo is gonna hurt. So you better have a back-up plan. Like somebody with a big mofo rifle who has excellent reflexes and steel-like nerves and is an excellent shot. Because a mad, hungry 400# predator barreling down on you within dart range is going to take the word, "Intimidating" to a whole new plateau.

I know a guy who was suppsoed to tranq a small black bear that was in a tree. It isn't as easy as it seems in theory. It's more like shooting a musket than a rifle and if the dart doesn't get good penetration in soft tissue, the animal may require a second darting. Or it might react like some humans do to a medicine--you know, in an unexpected violent way.

All I'm saying is that getting into a canyon full of madrono with a hungry, huge-f**king predator with a dart is a heck of a lot to ask of somebody who has a family.

Pretty, much a bingo there bot.

Everyone has a favorite animal and Tigers just happen to be mine. I don't think they belong in Zoo's private collections or anything other than the wild. Tigers outside of their natural environment is like a Ferrari driving within posted speed limits.

Personally I have great respect for the big cats and would never would do harm to one unless I was going to be the entree.

It's a predator thang. Anything that size can stalk and kill ANYTHING gets an A+ in my book.

i can't believe that you said that about cap'n.. :eek: :D

when divers dive with killer sharks they dive in cages.. why not have a cage or an armoured vehicle.. plenty other solutions then straight up between the eyes... :mad:

Okay, lets all imagine stalking an animal while inside a cage.

I mean no insult to anybody here but I have to ask this.

How many of you have ever hunted an animal? Hunting from a still position is the most common method. As long as you have good habitat and didn't drink a bladder-load of coffee, you have a fair chance of seeing game that way.

How about stalked game? When I used to hunt a lot I stalked deer and I got fairly adept. But I spent a hell of a lot of time in the woods in and out of hunting season. Even so, I didn't get a deer every season. Stalking is just really darned difficult and where I live, you have to be able to snapshoot--identify the target and get on it and shoot because the woods are thick and deer are very wary.

If that tiger was in typical chapparal, then the vegetation was thick in the canyon. Modrono and coast liveoak from shoe to overhead. Lots of shadows and linear shadows. The canyons are usually steep and narrow. The ground is close to the color of the tiger and streaked with dark shadows from the narrow limbs and branches. Dart guns are like a low-velocity musket, including singleshot. The gun is not accurate past 30 yards. The dope takes a couple of minutes to be fully effective.

You get in the brush in a steep, narrow canyon with your dart and you stalk a hungry 400# predator.

There's no doubt that if that kitty turned on you after you put a dart in its butt, you would be dead before you could say oh $hit.

Bot,
I understand your point of needing to kill the cat. In India, when the villagers want to hunt down a man eating tiger, they ususally form a circle of the estimated vicinity where the cat is and "corner" it in a specific location and then lure it out. If a bunch of uneducated villagers and cow herders can perform such a hunt, why can't those highly educated game wardens along with all the high tech night goggles crap our government has end up killing a life we spend millions all over the world to save?

What's up with the comparison of sending a man with a familiy to hunt down a tiger versus sending a man to Iraq to hunt down a terrorist? It is a job they all sign up to do, right? Or how about sending a man to bust into a crack house full of high power weapons?

This is an option that is being currently considered. If you like more information, from a local Ventura County paper, on options on what to do to the owner go to:

www.staronline.com

As I stated before, I am personally acquainted with the exact spot where the tiger was shot. It would have been possible for the tracker to first attempt to tranqulize the tiger and, if that failed, then shoot it. Using deadly force reflects a complete lack of planning.

The tiger had not hunted anything in two weeks. The tiger was also declawed. Anuone who has declawed a household cat knows that the cat must be kept indoors forever. A declawed cat cannot hunt or defend itself. Same thing for a tiger.

I agree with you 100%

exactly my point elau. thanks

So a declawed tiger is not dangerous? I bet Roy the Tiger tamer would disagree.

I'm sure if the tiger was a fetus you guys would have been chasing it with chainsaws since it was so defenseless.

How much and how long? :eek:

He's seen one before so I'm sure there would be no problem :cool:

Do you see no difference between a widlife agent and a soldier?

Wildlife agents do not sign-on the dotted line subsuming their free will to the good order and discipline of the agency. You cannot compel, under threat of death, a widlife agent. Soldiers kill human beings and human beings hunt soldiers. Widlife agents (very rarely) are asked to kill an animal. Among native North American predators, in the rarest of circumstances do they stalk humans.

The villager scenario is not bad. How often do you think, as a taxpayer, we shoudl take time to train wildlife agents in the proper method of hunting a tiger? How about a rhinocerus? A lion? A snow leopard? Black mamba? Crate? Croc? How many different skills do you think agents should have? How much of your tax dollars are you willing to spend to send your local agents to India to learn about tiger hunting? Australia for croc wrestling?

It's a damned shame about the tiger. But I would never ask an officer to risk his life to save an animal.

That kitty cat was so dangerous, unlike the tailgating morons that we live ( or die ) with every day and the sociopaths packing high capacity 9mm's. ( not talking about responsible citizens with CC permit here )

I had a buddy that raised a mountain lion. It did concern the neighbors when it roamed their back yards and stalked their pets. He had to find a new home for the lion or someone would have shot it. Man was that cat strong. When it tackled someone they dropped like a sack of flour. I swear I think it could have dropped linebackers all day long for fun.

A couple years ago I think when we were in Maine there was a moose that went swimming on a public beach. It attracted a crowd of onlookers. There weren't enough police to disperse the crowd and so they had to shoot the moose when it came back to the shore and the waiting crowd of onlookers. It was a very unpopular move to shoot the moose right there in front of the kids and all. But the police had no choice, moose are very dangerous animals.

Lets see. A 400# predator hadn't had a meal in 2 weeks. Who wants to get in a canyon with kitty?

Have you ever shot at anything? Lets say you're within dart range of kitty, 50m or so. The tiger can take 50m meters in three bounds, accelerating the whole time. You've got a rifle powerful enough to stop a 400# animal. That's is a big mofo rifle. .45 to .50 cal, like a .458 win mag or a .50 cal Barret. If you're really quick you'll get one good shot and maybe a second hasty one of it's the Barret. Or you may have a double, in which case you have two shots for sure, but i don't give a damn how fast or cool you think you are, that second shot is not gonna be worth a crap. The tiger is charging so it is narrow and it's bounding--going up-and-down. Your job is to put a killing bullet into it before it bites Mr. Dartman's head off and then turns on you.

*****! MedMech. I just spewed gin on my CRT.

For those broken up over this and looking for something to blow up, perhaps this is a good place to putch yo mouth errrrrrr money http://www.nfwf.org/programs/stf.htm

Not true. I am not saying Bot is wrong for his argument. My point is that the there was no planning and thus a life was wasted. They had 8 days to come up with a plan, but they chose the easy way out. Tiger is not a native animal in North America, and any idiot could have figured that it had to be a pet of some sort. But yet they made no attempt to ask the public to come forward so they knew what they were up against. All they wanted was to get this fiasco over with. Wish the same determination was expanded when they were hunting for OBL.

Of course I see the difference. But do you see that both are professionals, in which planning is part of a profession?

Are you sure of that? They spend quite a bit of time hunting down mountain lions and cyotes out West.

I am not here to say they need all the neccessary skills you mentioned. In order to be a Wildlife Agent, one of the pre-requisites is the knowledge of wild animals and their behavior. Their job is not necessarily to hunt and killl, but to protect and preserve. The whole episode is about they had ample of time to come up with a viable plan to avoid killing the life they are supposedly saving.

Just what do you think your tax dollar went to? They sure did not protect and preserve. If so, why we need such a department. Whenever we have something wild threaten our middle class suburbia, just call in the SWAT team and put a bullet into whatever roaming the boulevard.

So the animal's life is not worth a human's? How arrogant. No wonder, as a species, we deserve what's coming to us.

An animal is an animal....it isn't equal to or more important than a human life.

That Tiger was on the loose for over a week.......it could have killed an unsuspecting person or child......

Lets see you explain to some dead childs parents......" I sorry but the poor tiger has rights...and they were more important than your dead kids were."

Would have, should have, could have.......all cheap talks. Fact is no child was maimed. Fact is a dead tiger, an endangered animal.

Fact is a very dangerous wild animal was on the loose.....that WOULD have killed someone if it had been left to run free.

Heres a thought.....................If it was running loose in your neighborhood, would you make the saem arguements.

Wildlife agents spend most of their time looking for poachers. They may or may not have an undergraduate degree in biological sciences. To my knowledge, there is no formal course anywhere entitleD something like Hunting Carnivores 101. In fact, most agents have considerable training in law enforcement. Very few spend much time hunting, though many of them are avid hunters themselves. Some specialize in hunting or trapping certain types of problem animals, but none of them know all about hunting all animals. Every animal requires the same fundamental skill set (patience and marksmanship). But each animal requires specialized knowledge of the particular animal being hunted. A good knowledge of bear, cougar, coyote or deer is not going to be especially useful for beaver, wolf, or tiger.

Regardless of this or that detail of this event, it looks like the understanding of it turns on the relative value we assign to various life forms. For some reason we assign a higher value to a tiger than we do to a tapeworm. Why? I think answering that question will help us to understand why we find destroying this particular tiger such a compelling story.

You know what might be an interesting poll? Provide some set of subjects with a random list of animals and ask them to re-arrange them in some preferential order. Then compare the lists. Then look at the animals and see what they have in common. What do you think the criteria would be for ordering?

What is your favorite animal?

It was running loose in MY neighborhood and I am PISSED OFF that the tiger was killed.

A tiger was loose in florida. The agents tranquilized it and did not kill it.

ELAU, I am with you on this issue. :UNCLESAM:

And if it killed a kid.....while waiting to be captured I bet that would make you feel a lot better......particularly if it was yours.

Sorry.....but a Tiger is not Native to Californina, and had no business running free.