Perhaps we treat them better now, but for years, under Somoza, they were operated like a profitalbe subsidiary of our country. Roosevelt said he was a bastard, but he was our bastard.You said a mouthful there. I've no doubt some will accuse me of taking the 'hate America' position. I've got this funny notion that honesty is the best policy, and what the nation was told from on high about Nicaragua during the Reagan/Schultz years was far from honest, IMHO.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

And as all are ready for the main event to begin, a large fellow with an untrimmed beard and a cuban cigar enters the the ring and grabs a microphone, "Senoras y senors, por favor....".

Sorry, can't be held responsible for the lack of a seperate plural pronoun in the English language. I think Khamani is pretty smart. He's right, if he allows the young some democratic freedoms they'll want more. That would eventually mean the loss of his power base - radical Islam. Now, having said that I really do hope the young folks want and crave and work for more democracy. I hope we provide support for this, it's the neighborly thing to do.

Have you ever been to the Middle East? Iran in particular? This is not uncommon behaviour to those who hold power there. It's that way in Asia too. Been there? Have you ever seen pictures of the busses, taxis and rickshaws in these countries. Poor SOBs who scrape by in life but their cars and busses are decorated to the nines with every concievable gaudy thing you could paste anywhere on that vehicle. I think it kinda works for them over there - would never work for most of us over here. They definatly put the Pimp in Pimp-mobile.

So, you use physical features to measure a person? That's somewhat surprising to me given the positions you usually take.

[QUOTE=cmac2012]That’s exactly what I was referring to. I’m sure the hostage crisis was horrendous and that all sorts of mischief took place. Sorry my use of that word bothers you so.

Use the word "mischief" if you want when referring to killing, torturing, genocide, mass murder. I find that the subjects are all serious enough to be called what they are. My initial response to you was contrasting the strong verbs you used to characterize things we, the US, may have done in country X yet passing off what country X actually did, which was maim, murder, torture, etc... as mischief.



So, 1953... That would mean that this was our policy through Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter? Not to mention the British before. Or, could it be that's the way Iran is set up to work? I know very well about Savak et. al. Do you know about thier equivalents in the Islamic government in exile that were roaming the streets of Iran in '79. I guess were back to my point from a few posts ago. Who were the good guys and who were the bad?

Why do you think this is? Would it have anything to do with the media harping on one case of despicable behaviour within the shadow of thousands of cases of honorable deeds? What about our esteemed Senators and Congresspeople who provide every freakin soundbite that Al Jazeera could ever need in order to whip a muslim crowd up into a frenzy. Hell, Kennedy even lies about what American Troops do in Gitmo, prior to his visit, where he is lambasted by said American Troops. Did that get the same coverage as the mythical "Koran down the toilet" story? And, BTW, I work with a guy who spent his last few years as a guard in Gitmo and several others who are there now. It's a fabricated story made up by the media and the Democrats. Painful to the people who work there because of the lengths they go to to protect the "rights" of the prisoners there.

Fact is the US does more good on the whole than any other country in the world. It is OK to say that cause that's what we've done. Do we do bad things? Yes, we do. Are some of them on purpose? Yes, they are. Are some of them results of poor decisions? Yes, they are. Are some of them the results of good decisions with bad consequences? You betcha. If you want to dwell on the bad feel free. Realize that it does our country no good when senior Senator stands and accuses the President of immorality, lying, treason, etc... It is, however, and indicator of how great a country we live in. It's unfortunate that the senior horse's ass from Massachussetts cares more for his party than he does for the country.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I feel like I can spot a liar with some accuracy. Something in the eyes, the curl of the lip. That's why I trust John McCain but think Bush is a bull$h!tter deluxe. I don't like Ted Kennedy either. I didn't give birth to the guy or nurse him as a child. I forget, what's the name of that albatross around my neck again? Is it Teddy, Bill, or Dan? It's so hard to keep up.

No I've not been to the Middle East. I guess I should just shut up, huh? With all due respect, you were 10 in '79 while in Iran. I'm sure it was a good experience but I'm also sure there's a lot you would have had no way of knowing. Not certain that I know any better, but from what I've read of Savak, and the way they were used by a guy I have a real hard time respecting for a lot of reasons, a guy who loved wealth way more than his people, IMHO, I think we made a serious mistake in overthrowing Mossadeq and and putting that stupid, moronic, idiot back on the peacock throne.

There, I used all three in one sentence. Happy?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Huhh?

Cleverness and wisdom are often mutually exclusive. I thought Khatami was a lot smarter. He had a look of honesty about him and what I read of his positions impressed me a lot more than Khamani who strikes me as a butt covering bureaucrat.

So, the kind of "support" you think we should offer Iranian youngsters, that wouldn't be anything like the kind of support we provided to democracy lovers in Iraq would it? Oh hey, that'll work -- work at getting everyone to rally round the flag and get them youngsters to ask their elders questions like, "Tell us, Grandpa, how the great satan overthrew Iran's first democracy under Mossadeq cause they wanted cheap oil." Oh hell, in no time we'll be welcomed as liberators, I'm sure Cheney would agree, and our troops will be met with flowers and chocolates.

You will likely say that Mossadeq is ancient history. Wahhhlll, a lot of Iranians view it as common currency from what I read. We have a gynormous black mark against us in the "bringing democracy" dept. in Iran, and the ill-advised mis-adventure in Iraq only adds to that.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I'm kinda in the dark about what strategic intersts of ours that Nicaragua threatened when the Sandinistas came into power. A communist govt. on the N. American mainland 2 days drive from Harlingen Texas?

Oh horrors, the mighty Sandinista army was massing to take Houston!

My guess is the real strategic interests they threatened were the rights of American business to reap big profits unhindered by the sort of pesky restrictions they had to endure at home.

We've slaughtered a lot of people based on anxiety over the communist bogey man. Yeah, I'll be hearing soon from Peragararo that Mao and Stalin slaughtered umpteen millions, etc., etc. If we dislike communism so much, perhaps we could have tried to insure that we didn't give tacit approval and support to neo-feudal landlordism in places like Nicaragua and El Salvador to a degree that would drive badly oppressed citizens into the arms of the communists.

Not saying it was all our fault, just that our response was way heavy handed and our culpability for the original condition not non-existant.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I agree, corruption in the U.N. should be dealt with. My problem with Coleman, and much of the conservative foreign policy crowd, is that they are anxious to prosecute wrongdoing by others and nudge and wink at the same sort of thing if carried out by our govt. Are you going to tell me American interests aren’t going to profit handsomely from Iraqi oil? Please… Furthermore, Kofi Anan has been essentially cleared and I haven’t heard any apologies from those who tried to smear him with this. His son is a bit of a punk (sorry). Have you seen pictures of the guy? Another case of a son being a shadow of his old man.

Sovereign nation to sovereign nation? Well, not exactly. Here’s a brief account of what I think I know about it. I may be wrong – if so, please correct me. Mossadeq was a popular member of the parliament, so popular that the Shah eventually was forced to name him Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadeq

Mossadeq moved to nationalize their oil fields. The British had contracted early in the 20th century for Iranian oil, contracts made with a Shah of the time who was reportedly easily impressed with ostentatious wealth. Iran got around 18% of the profits from Britain’s operation of their oil fields. Mossadeq informed them that he wanted the same 50% that the Saudis and Venezuelans were getting at the time. The Brits refused and began plotting to have him ousted -- were discovered, and all Brits were evicted from the country. They persuaded Eisenhower (after Truman refused their entreaties) that Mossadeq was dangerous and friendly with commies.

Our CIA mounted a successful mis-information operation and generally assisted pro-Shah military brass in ousting him. The Shah was ushered back into power and in ’57 formed Savak, the hated secret police that was trained with help from the CIA and Israel’s Mossad. I’ve read numerous accounts of their brutality in suppressing any and all dissent – reads a lot like Saddam’s torture apparatus.

http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/savak.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi_of_Iran

Meanwhile, we informed the Brits that we were the new gatekeepers of Iranian oil and also managed to put air bases purt-near next to the Soviet Union, I suspect complete with nukes, long before their attempt to do the same in Cuba. It's OK for us, but not for them.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

If we don’t respect the treaty with whoever we signed it with, it undermines our moral authority. You’re telling me that Bush and Rummers have not been lobbying for new nuke development? I agree with this. I like the Iranians who are broadcasting from L.A., or rather like what I’ve heard of their operation. I don’t deny that Iran is a bit whacky and dangerous to boot. My intent here is not to take the Hate America position. I have very little control over what happens in Iran or any other nation. Ideally, I have some control over what happens here. Only when we understand as completely as possible why our enemies hate us, and what complaints of theirs are valid, will we be at our strongest position.

I heard a piece today on the Truth and Reconciliation scene in S. Africa. Amazing stuff. It actually seems to be working in moving their country forward. I believe we should unilaterally apologize for our past shenanigans and mischief and seek to make reparations where appropriate. No doubt this quaint suggestion will elicit howls of mirth or outrage. I say we need to drop this crap about our non-stop wonderfulness. Our hands are not nearly as clean as the flag draped, drenched in partiotism crowd would like to believe.

One of Sean Hannity’s favorite lines: “Is it wrong to say that the United States is the greatest country on earth?” Wrong is not the word I would use – ill advised is more like it. Pride goeth before a fall, over and over. My dad was part of the greatest generation. He was a Sergeant Major in the 24th ID in the Pacific theater in WW2. Forgive me, but he was a full on war hero. Should I try to rest on his laurels? I don’t think he would respect that. That’s what I see a lot of our excessive national self-adulation as being: resting on the laurels of those who went before us. We are a collection of human beings, prone to error, pride, and self-deception. The rest of the world is not impressed w/ our arrogance. Could bite us in the but.

On the Waterloo thing: splitting hairs dept. Waterloo was a big mistake that was essentially the end of an empire. People think we are unstoppable, that we can do anything. We have limits and under our current Master Strategist, we’re starting to explore them.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K