Feds Screwed up?

[davidmash]

I found some info in the National Response Plan published in Dec of 2004 that would seem to point to the Feds screwing up. The plan, on page 44 says

Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance
may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances,
suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
■ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and
begin necessary operations as required to commence
life-safety activities.
■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur,
but the coordination process must not delay or impede
the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.
States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.


Notice where it says that under extreem circumstances, procedures may be suspended. So why did the Feds not move in on day one with or with out an invitation.

BTW the link to the entire document can be found at the FEMA www site and just do a search for "national response plan". I think this means someone dropped the ball.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by davidmash

I found some info in the National Response Plan published in Dec of 2004 that would seem to point to the Feds screwing up. The plan, on page 44 says

Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance
may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances,
suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
■ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and
begin necessary operations as required to commence
life-safety activities.
■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur,
but the coordination process must not delay or impede
the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.
States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.


Notice where it says that under extreem circumstances, procedures may be suspended. So why did the Feds not move in on day one with or with out an invitation.

BTW the link to the entire document can be found at the FEMA www site and just do a search for "national response plan". I think this means someone dropped the ball.

Nothing like ignoring the facts.....

Like the Governer of LA delayed acting for 24 hours AFTER Bush wanted to step in...

ANd besides...its not a disaster until it happens...

and until it happens its not a federal issue but a local one...

Try pointing yoour fingers at the Governer....a Democrat. or even the Mayor.

Nothing like letting your liberal bias get in the way of what really happened.



To quote Botnst on another thread related to this which I think hits the nail on the head....


Everybody in elected office is playing musical chairs, waiting for teh music to stop. It is premature to definitively assert who'll be left standing. I think (unfortunately) Blanco will be one left standing because of her refusal to federalize relief in advance of the storm and her recalcitrant behavior immediately afterword.

The real culprits are the people of Louisiana and NOLA. Why should we wait for the Corps of Engineers to deal with our problem? Instead of addressing it, we have, for 100 years, increasingly ceded that responsibility to the federal government. The federal government has lost interest in levees and the state is out of the habit of paying its own way.

If science dictated the course of events, the levees would be flattened and the area would return to seasonal flooding. Architecture and transportation would be forced to adapt to the environment rather than vice-versa (and we would follow the same course in Pacific cities concerning earthquakes, too). Instead, we rebuild the same mistakes and blame it on another generation of politicians.

[davidmash]

Cute response

I am addressing what happened afterward. According to the NRP, the Feds do not need to wait for an invitation. They can just show up. and get to work. So it really does not matter that the Mayor, Governor or Peter Pan waited for 24 hours or 24 years.

Try responding with out the name calling. It really gets old.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by davidmash

Cute response

I am addressing what happened afterward. According to the NRP, the Feds do not need to wait for an invitation. They can just show up. and get to work. So it really does not matter that the Mayor, Governor or Peter Pan waited for 24 hours or 24 years.

Try responding with out the name calling. It really gets old.

You know I can link you the ones you made towards me while I was away on vacation...but thats besides the point...toss crap my way you should to expect to get it back...

Besides...you are the one using partisan fingerpointing and ignoring the fact of who is first responsible for NOLA....#1 the Mayor...#2 the LA Governor...

which you chose to completely ignore because they are democrats and leapfrog right to Bush...just becasue its the democrat way.

If you have any concept of what it takes to organise mass movements helpers and supplies to send them into an area that NOBODY had any idea of the extent of due to power, cell phone and telepone lines being down...

and Ignor the fact that most of the victims are victims becasue they refused to leave when they were told to leave...that wasn't Bushes fault...that was their own fault.

You can't muster National guard troops....gather massive relief and supplies and fly it in all in hours..it takes days...

Many Guardsmen were driven in trucks....Army trucks...these things are governed, most of them anyway and won't go 90 mph...do the math of milage and speed...many of these will only go 45 mph...

The LA governer still refuses to force the fatheads who refuse to leave New Orleans to go.....thats not Bushes fault...but you can count on him being blamed if Colera breaks out and they die.

[davidmash]

My statement was in response to your typically bombastic and insulting responses to though who disagree with you.

Be that as it may, as I recall, troops were in NY the day off the attack. To me it seems to be a matter of will, not a matter of ability.

The airport was useable the day after the hurricane, the military could have easily air lifted in aid and assistance if told to do so.

Numerous new agencies were reporting before during and after the hurricane hit so the knowledge of what happened was readily available.

No, the people did not leave. I am not saying it was a smart move but my guess is most of them had no idea what they were in for. I do not feel it is appropriate to sentence people to death just because they make a bad choice. They may have seen other people survive hurricanes (look at Miami for instance) and did not see the difference.

The way I interpret the FEMA NRP I(which you still have not addressed) is that the Feds do not need a invitation to come in. If that's the case, whether or not the mayor and/or governor asked for assistance or when they asked for assistance is irrelevant. People were dying by the thousands and the Feds should have moved in quite a bit faster then they did.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by davidmash

My statement was in response to your typically bombastic and insulting responses to though who disagree with you.

Be that as it may, as I recall, troops were in NY the day off the attack. To me it seems to be a matter of will, not a matter of ability.

The airport was useable the day after the hurricane, the military could have easily air lifted in aid and assistance if told to do so.

Numerous new agencies were reporting before during and after the hurricane hit so the knowledge of what happened was readily available.

No, the people did not leave. I am not saying it was a smart move but my guess is most of them had no idea what they were in for. I do not feel it is appropriate to sentence people to death just because they make a bad choice. They may have seen other people survive hurricanes (look at Miami for instance) and did not see the difference.

The way I interpret the FEMA NRP I(which you still have not addressed) is that the Feds do not need a invitation to come in. If that's the case, whether or not the mayor and/or governor asked for assistance or when they asked for assistance is irrelevant. People were dying by the thousands and the Feds should have moved in quite a bit faster then they did.

Mr Bombastic...man you need to look in the mirror dude...


You have any idea the time it takes to #1 organise troops..#2 gather gear #3 get it there....

Where was the LA NG and why that Gov Blanco not doing her job...

Why are you ignoring the fact that its #1 the Mayors responsibility....#2 The Governors responsibility if its to big for the Mayor...and then maybe it gets to the Federal level....

Blanco tragged her feet for 24 hours before giving an answer to Bush to help...and this was before the Hurricane made landfall...before anyone had any idea how bad it would end up being.

Hell you would have been the first one screaming if Bush Marched right in and took charge without the formalities...but then thats the Democrat way....igore your own parties mistakes and point fingers at people where not the first second lines of responsibility...

Another factoid .....The US army is prohibited by federal law from domestic police actions that were seriously needed with the looters...and even then active duty troops need time to be moved...

But then thats what the Guard does....Blame the governer Blanco for dragging her feet getting them their...she commands them. THey have thousands in LA


Did you ever spend time in the Military? and just exactly how do you think you can move mass numbers of troops supplies and transport them in the Blink of an eye over vast distances?

[davidmash]

According to the FEMA document, the Feds do have the authority to step in with out permission. If the mayor and governor were not capable (which seems obvious) then it is the Feds responsibility to step in.

Seems to me the Feds can act very quickly when they want to. The shut the skies down on 9/11 in 5 hours. Troops were moving in the day of the attack. Seems to me that if our military does not have the capability to have troops on the ground in any city in the lower 48 in 24 hours we have a serious issue.

The 1st 24 hours Feds can get a pass (maybe), the fact that it took an additional 72 hours before the Feds laid a foot in LA is inexcusable.

There is no maybe about it. After the 1st 24 hours where is was obvious that nothing was being done on the local level the Feds have the right (see the FEMA document) and as far as I am concerned the obligation to move in and do what needs doing.

I do not have access to the NRP here at work but from what I recall, the document seems to imply that the Feds do indeed have the authority to deal with looters.

[boneheaddoctor]

NYC doesn't cover 90,000 sqaure miles....and three states.

We were talking only manhattan...

ANd what whould shutting down general aviation have to do with stopping a hurricane?

I may have been in Italy at the time but the news I saw showed due to communications interuptions nobody had an idea how bad it was for a couple days....

[peragro]

Originally Posted by davidmash

■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur,
but the coordination process must not delay or impede
the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.
States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.

I think this means someone dropped the ball.

What do you think the bold part of the phrase means?

[davidmash]

The Feds did not even have troops on the ground in MSY much less any other part of the state(s) involved in the hurricane.

I was merely pointing out that when the Feds choose to act quickly, they have that ability.

Not sure what you were watching but here in the states you could turn to pretty much any news station and see live feeds of how messed up everything was during and after the hurricane hit. That is why there is the up roar about how slow the response was. It took them 4 days to evacuate the hospital where people were on life support.

I do not know what should / could have been done before the fact. How do you evacuate a city of 500,000 people in 24-36 hours? I do not think that can be pinned on the Feds. If the Feds knew that MSY was going to be a waste land after a Cat 5 (which the reports of 91 and 01 seem to indicate that they did) then the Feds IMOP, should have stepped in long ago to say hey, either you come up with a plan or we do.

After the fact, troops should have been on the ground starting 24 hrs after the fact. There is no reason that it should have taken 96 hours for full scale rescue to start.

[Honus]

Originally Posted by peragro

What do you think the bold part of the phrase means?

I take the bold language to mean that the state is supposed to let the locality know that, like it or not, the feds are moving in. And, since the federal government performed flawlessly in this whole affair , it also means that FEMA got together with all fiftie states and the District of Columbia ahead of time so that everybody would be on the same page when disaster struck. What are the odds that W's FEMA did that advance work?

[peragro]

Originally Posted by davidmash

The Feds did not even have troops on the ground in MSY much less any other part of the state(s) involved in the hurricane.

Here's a linky, I can't post the whole article 'cause for some reason it freezes up my computer when I try, but here's an excert:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/politics/08chertoff.html?ei=5090&en=373053edcb4fff05&ex=1283832000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1126182417-fXi4vRtafGCy/xuouKwtfw

"Even so, he said relief crews delivered seven trailers filled with water and ready-to-eat meals to the Superdome before the storm hit on Aug. 29, along with another seven trailers on Aug. 30."

Keep in mind this was in support of the hurricane, not the break in the levee. Hurricanes go for about 12 hours then they're done and you get to pick up the pieces. Usually in nice weather since the hurricane swept up all the bad weather. In this case the levee broke and flooding commenced. It went from a bad situation to mind-boggleingly bad very quickly.

Originally Posted by davidmash

I was merely pointing out that when the Feds choose to act quickly, they have that ability.

Not sure what you were watching but here in the states you could turn to pretty much any news station and see live feeds of how messed up everything was during and after the hurricane hit. That is why there is the up roar about how slow the response was. It took them 4 days to evacuate the hospital where people were on life support.

They were being shot at...

but another excerpt:

"For instance, one administration official who was at the briefing said it was Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau at the Pentagon, not Mr. Chertoff, who told House members that television images of sparse relief efforts for evacuees sheltered at the Superdome offered "a small soda-straw view of what was going on."

Originally Posted by davidmash

I do not know what should / could have been done before the fact. How do you evacuate a city of 500,000 people in 24-36 hours? I do not think that can be pinned on the Feds. If the Feds knew that MSY was going to be a waste land after a Cat 5 (which the reports of 91 and 01 seem to indicate that they did) then the Feds IMOP, should have stepped in long ago to say hey, either you come up with a plan or we do.

After the fact, troops should have been on the ground starting 24 hrs after the fact. There is no reason that it should have taken 96 hours for full scale rescue to start.

123456

[Azimyth]

I was going to post in this thread, but as I read it became clear to me that one more pitbull tearing at a writhing corpse could create a chaotic feading frenzy.

[davidmash]

That same article seems to indicate that it may indeed have been that dire. Not sure how much 14 trailers can do for 15,000 or so people.

Yes they were being shot at and if troops would have been moved in as Katrina was leaving, perhaps some if not most of the shooting could have been avoided.

"The picture was being painted that things were not as bad as they appeared to be" in news reports, Mr. Cummings said in an interview. "It reached the point where the answers didn't add up."

Everything I have seen on the news seems to indicate it is as bad as it was/is portrayed and that perhaps someone is trying to cover their back side. I do no know for certain, but knowing the way government works, that is my hunch.

Not sure what you meant by "123456"

[Brian Carlton]

If you draw the conclusion that the Federal government has far more knowledgeable and capable people than the state or local governments, and, I believe that this is clearly apparent, then you must ask yourself why the Feds would not step in and deal with the situation earlier than they did.

Most of the posters on this thread like to simply place blame on the local government and defend George and company for simply waiting for the call by those local officials. Clearly the call was late and the Feds, therefore, got started late.

But, that is not the intent of the thread. Bonehead has clearly ignored the intent of the thread because he simply doesn't understand it. The thread pointed out the fact that the Feds did not have to wait for a request and coordinate their efforts with the state and local officials. Therefore, the argument that the Feds were waiting for governor Blanco to request aid is simply BS. If the Feds had proper information on the strength and capability of this storm, as I believe they certainly did have, then they could have acted at any time. In fact, they could have begun operations before the storm ever arrived. However, this might have been a bit unrealistic. However, commencing Monday afternoon, they could have, and should have, begun the process of moving equipment into the area. Best I can guess, this didn't start for 48 hours after this point in time.

And, therefore, the Feds share culpability for this tragedy.