I read the original post again.

Can you kindly elaborate. Are the 2000 square feet that are heated strictly on the first floor? If so, what is the total square footage of the house?

You may not directly heat the upstairs rooms, but the heating of the lower floor will certainly cause these rooms to be heated via convection.

Total sq ft about 3150. 2000 in the original Victorian on two floors and rest in a single story addition that contains our kitchen, one other room, and the apt. This addition has lots of insulation in the ceiling--2' in places which I put in when I replaced the ceilings.
So, we heat the 1000 sq ft downstairs of the original Victorian and the addition. System zoned 3 ways, up and down in original house + addition. Some heat obviously migrates upstairs but apart from our south facing bedroom, it stays at 50 degrees or lower.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Last month my electric bill was about $150. My condo is 1200 sq ft. and has a lot of windows facing south and into woods. Everything's electric and the heat is from a heat pump on the roof.

When I looked the useage, I had used TWICE the amount than last year for Dec. Go figure. But I know I need new windows. I did cram some insulation between the windows and tape them over with window tape to prevent drafts.

I've been playing with the idea of buying three or four portable gas radiators to heat and simply turn off the heat pump to save money. Is this a good idea?

BTW, my friends in Philly spend about $800/mo at winter's peak for gas!!

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

Heat pumps are about as efficient as you can get. However below a certain temperature, they can't extract enough heat from the air so they usually have an electric heating strip that turns on to provide heat at that point. When it does that, I suspect that oil filled electric radiators in individual rooms would give you a more efficient heat than air blowing across the heat strip. You'd have to figure out at what temperature your heat strip is coming on and use the radiators at that time.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

This confirms my suspicions. 363 therms to provide heat and hot water for a 3150 square foot house with four family members with 30 degree ambient temperatures does not seem excessive to me.

I cant find the website I was looking at before but not all systems are ugly. some are integrated into the roof and you don't really notice them. Pretty easy to build too. I have one I made a couple months ago that sits in a bedroom window which isnt very efficient and it will give off 130 degree heat on really sunny days.

Thanks for the info. I do know when it's especially cold outside, the heat is on nearly 24 hours/day. I keep it set at about 68 degrees. Looks like I'll stick with what I'm doing now: heat pump with a oil filled radiator in the sun room, the coldest room in the condo, to supliment heat.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

Well, not really... you see, Watts are Watts!

There is the same amount of heat in each Watt of resistance heating, no matter how you deliver it. (3.413 BTUs = 1 Watt) It can be air across a heater, an sharp looking, thermostatically controled oil-filled 'radiator' or a light bulb. The biggest difference in resistance heaters of the same wattage is the marketing.

Heat pumps and air conditioners are a different story, there are efficiency differences.

I was thinking of the delivery system. The heat being immediately in the space to be heated versus being pumped thru ductwork. Less opportunity to waste heat with an oil filled radiator.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Very good points to ponder. If I may ramble a bit...

The 'speed' of the heat could be a race between the air in the duct warming the duct to the point where the heat can be felt, versus the radiator getting a good convection current going in the room.

There may be some heat 'wasted' as it radiates from ductwork into other spaces of the house that you don't want to heat, and a bit more since most circulating fans stop before the heater reaches room temperature, but it is a very small portion.

The central heater seems to have a clear advantage in the electrical service category. The furnace will be wired for the current of the compressor or heater, whichever is largest. However, if you plug in 2 oil-filled radiators rated 1,500 Watts in one room, be prepared for a circuit breaker to trip or a fuse blow unless the outlets in the room are fed from 2 different circuits.

A 120V, 15A outlet can support 1,800 Watts. Several of these can wired to a 20A circuit, which can support a total of 2,400 Watts.

Plug-in appliances are limited to 80% of a 20A circuit, or 16A, or 1920 Watts. At this full rating, they will play heck with a 15A circuit.

I wonder what Mr. Carlton will have to add to this discussion.

I agree that direct wired appliances are superior. However, for use during limited situations, I see no problem with oil filled radiators. I've never run across the need for more than one of them even in our largest room. I also find that radiated heat 'feels' warmer than forced air. An additional advantage is that they can be moved around and selected rooms heated.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I agree that the losses from a central system would be minimal when compared to a local system that utilized the oil filled radiators.

However, I do see some benefit in the oil filled radiators if there is a requirement to heat one specific room out of four that are on the zone. When my system was not complete, I would want to heat the living room in the early evening when I had a life outside of this forum. This would necessitate heating the foyer and the two upstairs bedrooms on the west side because the system was feeding one-half the house. I had no need to heat all those rooms, so the oil fired unit, running at 1500W, can easily raise the temperature of the living room (175 sq. ft.) by 10 degrees F. In fact, the oil fired radiator could hold 70 degrees with the unit running at 900W at 25 degree ambients.

I don't see an easy way of automatically regulating the oil filled electric radiator to work in conjunction with a heat pump. They have rather crude temperature control and are best utilized when running flat out. You do have a selection of power levels..........600W, 900W, and 1500W, typically.

I also wish to mention, Kerry, that you should take a look at the temperature of the circulating water from the boiler to the radiators. Every degree that you can lower the temperature of this water will result in savings. The traditional setting of 180 degrees is fine for expected temperatures of 0° ambient or below, but, for all ambients above this temperature, the system is overpowered and it would benefit from a reduction in the temperature of the circulating water.

The large cast iron radiators will tend to overshoot badly when heating them with 180 degree circulating water due to their capability of storing a huge amount of energy. Reducing the water temperature will minimize this tendency. If you get the water down to a "proper" level, the house will struggle to raise the temperature by 10 degrees F. in the morning. This is fine. You simply use clock thermostats that will start the climb earlier in the morning. In my specific case, these Honeywells will "learn" the time to climb and will start the climb based upon what they learn. They are quite good at this and will attempt to get the room to the desired temperature at the exact time that you specify, even if they must begin the climb four hours earlier.

I'm currently running 155° water, and, I could run slightly less but I'm near the limit of my hot water capability for a long shower. Naturally, if it drops to near 0° ambient, I'll have to make a visit to the basement and increase the boiler temperature. Not a big deal.

I'm not sure what water temperature I'm running at the moment. A number of years ago I considered retrofitting a device which measures the outside temperature and regulates the water temperature accordingly. I can't remember why I didn't do it--perhaps it was price.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

It's an excellent unit, but, it's total price is over $1K, not including the installation. Takes a lot of savings to pay for itself. For $1K, I can make a few trips to the basement and regulate the water myself.

Have you considered a combination indoor/outdoor hydronic thermostat?

Would the 1050-1 series at the bottom of this link work?

http://www.white-rodgers.com/common/ptech/hydronic/hydronic_01.htm