Abortion - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #31 01-23-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Why stop at ex utero? I mean, a human being isn't really plausibly viable until they're 7 to 12 years old when they can scrap with the other scavengers at the garbage heap.

Bot

Only because it is relatively simple to substitute another person as the dependee once ex utero. If the person grows up and decides they don't want to live after all, they can end it then.

A264172 · #32 01-23-2006, 07:30 PM

Is a women culpable for 'not' having intercourse, when fertile, with the most 'healthy' man who will impregnate her and care for her child? ?
Or if her birth control method failed to keep the filthy life out of her?

The decision to kill your own developing child is a sin aginst life...
But what man can sin or be righteous that is not free to do so?

kerry · #33 01-23-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

Is a women culpable for 'not' having intercourse, when fertile, with the most 'healthy' man who will impregnate her and care for her child? ?
Or if her birth control method failed to keep the filthy life out of her?

The decision to kill your own developing child is a sin aginst life...
But what man can sin or be righteous that is not free to do so?

It can be a virtuous life affirming act. The average woman could produce about 27 children in her fertile years. Deciding how many of those possible children she brings into the world and when, is an affirmation of the power of life to become value judging and future oriented.

In answer to the second question, Kuan's exposition of traditional medeival theology is accurate. Everyone is sinful yet are predestined by God to do everything they do. I think the advantage of the view I'm trying to articulate is that freedom makes more sense.

A264172 · #34 01-23-2006, 07:48 PM

It will take a hell of a lot of high-minded freedom to wash away those old time hormones screeming 'sin'.

Not to say a woman can't have an abortion and feel it was the right decision.

Just hard to imagine a real.. all around feel good abortion scenario.

Maybe if you discovered that an abortion a year would double the life expectancy of a woman you might be able to sell it.

aklim · #35 01-23-2006, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

What I'm thinking is that while your view does make sense of abortion rights, it's not the only way to make sense of abortion rights. A theistic view of the world could also make sense of abortion rights. A consistent theistic defense of abortion rights could be an important social contribution in our world.

As long as that theistic view is not forced on others, sure. I would never presume my view is the one and only and all others are 2nd. It is MY view. You might differ. I should not force my view on you and you should not force your's on mine. Unfortunately, that seems not to be the way people think.

aklim · #36 01-23-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

Only because it is relatively simple to substitute another person as the dependee once ex utero. If the person grows up and decides they don't want to live after all, they can end it then.

I can't kill you because I don't like you. Why? Because I would be depriving you of YOUR life. If it is your life, take it as you choose, IMO.

Botnst · #37 01-23-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

Only because it is relatively simple to substitute another person as the dependee once ex utero. If the person grows up and decides they don't want to live after all, they can end it then.

I agree with the argument that a substitute ex utero parent is easier to arrange than a substitute in utero. I am inclined to believe that is the only serious argument contra-infanticide, assume no deity involvement,

B

DieselAddict · #38 01-23-2006, 08:42 PM

A264172, you seem to be "pro-life". Could you then answer the questions that I raised?

A264172 · #39 01-23-2006, 08:59 PM

I don't see that one choice or the other is more humane. Very personal though.

Each scenario has a different way to play and each woman has a different way to play it.

If I understand it Kerry is trying to envision an 'approach' to abortion that does not leaving the mother with the sense that she has betrayed and murdered her own child, and depending on the scenario, might not lead her to a different feeling than if she had decided to carry and then raise the child or put it up for adoption.

I do think that there are elements of regret, guilt, and sadness that cannot be eliminated from either choice. They are intrinsic to the event.

kerry · #40 01-23-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

I don't see that one choice or the other is more humane. Very personal though.

Each scenario has a different way to play and each woman has a different way to play it.

If I understand it Kerry is trying to envision an 'approach' to abortion that does not leaving the mother with the sense that she has betrayed and murdered her own child, and depending on the scenario, might not lead her to a different feeling than if she had decided to carry and then raise the child or put it up for adoption.

I do think that there are elements of regret, guilt, and sadness that cannot be eliminated from either choice. They are intrinsic to the event.

That's close. I think any decision involves the exclusion of possibiities that could be occasions for regret or guilt. For instance, carrying a fetus to term, excludes the other fetus that might have come into existence had the mother aborted the first and got pregnant again. But, I am arguing that abortion is not necessarily any different than other kinds of decisions we make about who to bring or not bring into the world.

A264172 · #41 01-24-2006, 06:44 PM

I think the physical realitys of the abortion will ultimately determine the moral sense of the mother. A 'day after' pill would be a much different experience than a medical procedure in a clinic. As would useing a condom when compared with choosing not to have sex or having your 'tubes tied' (whats that called) or a vasectomy.

A rape victum will not feel less violated. A woman who has been left to fend for herself by the father, and chooses not to have the baby, will feel as betrayed and foolish (for finding herself in the situation) as is warrented by her own appreciation of it.

Can it be justified? Sure, but thats up to the justifier. The circumstances of abortions vary so much from individual to individual that I think it's hard to apply a workable theory of justification of the act across the board.

Botnst · #42 01-24-2006, 06:56 PM

is living a life free of guilt and regret the best goal of humanity? If so, then what we should be doing is raising a buch of psychopaths.

Bot

kerry · #43 01-24-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

is living a life free of guilt and regret the best goal of humanity? If so, then what we should be doing is raising a buch of psychopaths.

Bot

I'm no sure of whom you inquire, but I don't think it should be a primary aim of life. Any decision excludes other possibilities that could be occasions for regret so I don't see any reason to dwell upon it.

Contrary to what many seem to claim, I don't think all women experience abortion with regret. I think it's a political tactic to claim that women suffer psychological damage from abortion. Real children can inflict much more damage.

DieselAddict · #44 01-24-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

Can it be justified? Sure, but thats up to the justifier. The circumstances of abortions vary so much from individual to individual that I think it's hard to apply a workable theory of justification of the act across the board.

There's nothing complicated about it. Since the justification varies from individual to individual like you said, let's just keep abortion legal and the problem is solved. Those who want it can get it and those who don't want it don't have to get it. It's not like we're forcing anyone to have abortion.

Botnst · #45 01-24-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

I'm no sure of whom you inquire, but I don't think it should be a primary aim of life. Any decision excludes other possibilities that could be occasions for regret so I don't see any reason to dwell upon it.

Contrary to what many seem to claim, I don't think all women experience abortion with regret. I think it's a political tactic to claim that women suffer psychological damage from abortion. Real children can inflict much more damage.

Pshew, that was close. For a second there I thought you were hoping to eliminate guilt and regret from life.

I agree with you that people use guilt and regret and all manner of other unsavory methods to argue for their particular beliefs.

B