Electoral College vs. Popular vote - Page 10 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**136** 03-23-2006, 07:25 PM

Here's another point that I think argues favorably for some sort of representative voting (allowing that EC is one of many models of representative voting).

First, we have to accept that there is a difference between mistakes and errors.

There's this concept called, "sampling error" in statistics. It is easy to understand in the following way. If I give you a ball bearing and ask you it's circumference, you may start by winding a tape around it and reading-off the marks. Perhaps you'll do it several times and take the average.

Or if you don't have a tape maybe you'll pick-up a ruler and estimate the diameter. Or maybe you'll borrow a micrometer from your neighbor an estimate the diameter. Then you'll multiply by pi and inform me of the circumference.

Each of these methods will give an answer but we will soon realize that there is some slop to the right of the decimal. As our method improves the ditches to the right of the decimal become increasingly stable. But there's still going to be an error out there that nothing we do will eliminate.

That same concept is in play for any method we may use to measure any attribute in the real world. In Florida the sampling error came from the various ways of interpreting "chads." The result is that we do not know and probably cannot know, the exact ballot count in Florida. Or any other state. Now depending on the method of enumeration, this or that state may do better or worse than Florida, but none of them will claim to be absolutely precise and accurate.

So what we do is this. Instead of electing the prez directly, we elect electors. The election of them is certified by the state legislature. This is a check on poor voting technique. We then empower an exact and finite number of them to to vote on a certain date and then count all of the ballots. This is a check on corruption since the chances of corrupting 535 electors without a whiff of suspicions is extremely small.

What is the advantage of electing electors? Well, the counting error is distributed over the number of electors partialed over the several states. This distributes the measurement error (which is an 'honest' source of uncertainty) and mistakes (often a dishonest source of uncertainty) over a large area and under greater scrutiny than can be exacted on a voter population of perhaps 100 million or so.

cudaspaz · #**137** 03-23-2006, 07:30 PM

Wow, I did not know we had so many America haters here,

and they make comments like third graders do when they don't know what they are talking about.

Hey, third grade went that way.

It's fine to have an opinion, but man, at least insert some common sense with it.

Unfortunately during Katrina while bands of hoodlums were running around raping, stealing, shooting, and beating people, our guns saved many lives due to the right to keep and bear arms.

The basis for this right was stressed by our founding fathers as a way for the people to protect themselves from tyranny from their own government should it ever come to that.
read the federalist Papers where our founding fathers compiled ideas as a preamble to the constitution.

Unfortunately during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, the local law enforcement authority forcefully confiscated legally owned firearms from law abiding gun owners illegally.
Did you know that lawsuits were brought about by the NRA and two law enforcement authorities stepped down, the guns were returned to the owners and if any charges wer illegally brought forth were dropped thanks to the NRA.
So without that organization we would all have to submit to criminals who do not care about the laws or authority figures who ignore the laws as well and act illegally.
You just don't get it until you become a victim of a brutal crime.
Maybe a gun owner might be around to help you out.
I never leave home without mine.

Thank god i live in the state of Georgia where the police encourage civilian armament by lawful carrying of firearms.
They know it cuts crime, and yes, a poor carrer criminal may get shot and killed in the process of a crime by a lawful gun owner,, whaaa, well, too freaking bad, maybe the next fool will think twice.

Hows come all you uneducated infantile thinking anti americans think all U.S. gun owners are cowboys that shoot at anything that moves wrong, and we all listen to country music and worship the KKK.

Get a life, we are mostly mom's, dad's and gradma's grandpa's, student's, and whatever you can think of.

You are just pissed because you are jealous and you can't understand self sufficiency, personal achievement, and individual thought because you have this mindset that the government will take care of me, and the police will take care of me, well Americans know that usually by the time the police show up, the victim is usually dead.
We don't compromise that part, we kick ass and take names and let the cops sort it out since we already did all the dirty work for them, thus making thier job easier.

So I'll just put a big plug of spittin tobbaca in my jaw,put the Hank Williams Jr cd in my headphones,sit back, cut some trees in half with my AK-47 and watch the sun rise on the next rattle snake I decide to spit on while i decide how many doggies I'm gonna round up today.

mikemover · #**138** 03-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Here's another point that I think argues favorably for some sort of representative voting (allowing that EC is one of many models of representative voting).

First, we have to accept that there is a difference between mistakes and errors.

There's this concept called, "sampling error" in statistics. It is easy to understand in the following way. If I give you a ball bearing and ask you it's circumference, you may start by winding a tape around it and reading-off the marks. Perhaps you'll do it several times and take the average.

Or if you don't have a tape maybe you'll pick-up a ruler and estimate the diameter. Or maybe you'll borrow a micrometer from your neighbor an estimate the diameter. Then you'll multiply by pi and inform me of the circumference.

Each of these methods will give an answer but we will soon realize that there is some slop to the right of the decimal. As our method improves the ditches to the right of the decimal become increasingly stable. But there's still going to be an error out there that nothing we do will eliminate.

That same concept is in play for any method we may use to measure any attribute in the real world. In Florida the sampling error came from the various ways of interpreting "chads." The result is that we do not know and probably cannot know, the exact ballot count in Florida. Or any other state. Now depending on the method of enumeration, this or that state may do better or worse than Florida, but none of them will claim to be absolutely precise and accurate.

So what we do is this. Instead of electing the prez directly, we elect electors. The election of them is certified by the state legislature. This is a check on poor voting technique. We then empower an exact and finite number of them to to vote on a certain date and then count all of the ballots. This is a check on corruption since the chances of corrupting 535 electors without a whiff of suspicions is extremely small.

What is the advantage of electing electors? Well, the counting error is distributed over the number of electors partialed over the several states. This distributes the measurement error (which is an 'honest' source of uncertainty) and mistakes (often a dishonest source of uncertainty) over a large area and under greater scrutiny than can be exacted on a voter population of perhaps 100 million or so.

Excellent post.

Mike

Botnst · #**139** 03-23-2006, 07:35 PM

Your gun hates people and is looking for any opportunity to shoot shoot them. I heard Dick Cheney's guns talking about taking-over the world. The first obstacle was lawyers so the guns planned to shoot lawyers, first.

Even worse, the guns are negotiating with CFC's to orchestrate destruction of the ozone layer with targeting rural southerners for termination.

Chemicals and guns are real smart and they're out to get us.

mikemover · #**140** 03-23-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cudaspaz

....So I'll just put a big plug of spittin tobbaca in my jaw,put the Hank Williams Jr cd in my headphones,sit back, cut some trees in half with my AK-47 and watch the sun rise on the next rattle snake I decide to spit on while i decide how many doggies I'm gonna round up today.

Classic! Hilarious! That IS what they think of us! I love it. Let 'em keep thinking that... maybe they'll be too frightened of us "unstable rednecks" to try to come and disarm us.

Oh, yeah... You also made some great points while you were at it.

Mike

mikemover · #**141** 03-23-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Your gun hates people and is looking for any opportunity to shoot shoot them. I heard Dick Cheney's guns talking about taking-over the world. The first obstacle was lawyers so the guns planned to shoot lawyers, first.

Even worse, the guns are negotiating with CFC's to orchestrate destruction of the ozone layer with targeting rural southerners for termination.

Chemicals and guns are real smart and they're out to get us.

And it's all George Bush's Gun's fault.

Mike

peragro · #**142** 03-23-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cudaspaz

Wow, I did not know we had so many America haters here,

and they make comments like third graders do when they don't know what they are talking about.

Hey, third grade went that way.

It's fine to have an opinion, but man, at least insert some common sense with it.

Unfortunately during Katrina while bands of hoodlums were running around raping, stealing, shooting, and beating people, our guns saved many lives due to the right to keep and bear arms.

The basis for this right was stressed by our founding fathers as a way for the people to protect themselves from tyranny from their own government should it ever come to that.
read the federalist Papers where our founding fathers compiled ideas as a preamble to the constitution.

Unfortunately during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, the local law enforcement authority forcefully confiscated legally owned firearms from law abiding gun owners illegally.
Did you know that lawsuits were brought about by the NRA and two law enforcement authorities stepped down, the guns were returned to the owners and if any charges wer illegally brought forth were dropped thanks to the NRA.
So without that organization we would all have to submit to criminals who do not care about the laws or authority figures who ignore the laws as well and act illegally.
You just don't get it until you become a victim of a brutal crime.
Maybe a gun owner might be around to help you out.
I never leave home without mine.

Thank god i live in the state of Georgia where the police encourage civilian armament by lawful carrying of firearms.
They know it cuts crime, and yes, a poor carrer criminal may get shot and killed in the process of a crime by a lawful gun owner,, whaaa, well, too freaking bad, maybe the next fool will think twice.

Hows come all you uneducated infantile thinking anti americans think all U.S. gun owners are cowboys that shoot at anything that moves wrong, and we all listen to country music and worship the KKK.

Get a life, we are mostly mom's, dad's and gradma's grandpa's, student's, and whatever you can think of.

You are just pissed because you are jealous and you can't understand self sufficiency, personal achievement, and individual thought because you have this mindset that the government will take care of me, and the police will take care of me, well Americans know that usually by the time the police show up, the victim is usually dead.
We don't compromise that part, we kick ass and take names and let the cops sort it out since we already did all the dirty work for them, thus making thier job easier.

So I'll just put a big plug of spittin tobbaca in my jaw,put the Hank Williams Jr cd in my headphones,sit back, cut some trees in half with my AK-47 and watch the sun rise on the next rattle snake I decide to spit on while i decide how many doggies I'm gonna round up today.

I've got no issue with gun ownership, I have a few of my own. Mostly old WWII or before.

I wonder though, when did the term cowboy become derogative. I know that our famously witty cousins in Europe have used the term derogatorily for a while, but consider the source. I was always under the impression, growing up, that cowboys were hard-working, innovative, creative, get-it-done kinda folk.

Botnst · #**143** 03-23-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

I've got no issue with gun ownership, I have a few of my own. Mostly old WWII or before.

I wonder though, when did the term cowboy become derogative. I know that our famously witty cousins in Europe have used the term derogatorily for a while, but consider the source. I was always under the impression, growing up, that cowboys were hard-working, innovative, creative, get-it-done kinda folk.

Sophisticated people are contemptuous of 'cowboys'--people who are self-reliant and who look at life and work in simple terms like right/wrong, good/evil, friend/enemy. Sophisticated people see a vast volume of lumpy grays in a twilight world where honor and duty are virtues for children and weak-minded adults. Sophisticated people believe that since they see a complex, hard to understand word and cowboys see things in terms of good and evil, that cowboys must be simple-minded and naive. Worse, cowboys are dangerous because they think that wrong things should be destroyed and bad people, punished. Thus, the contempt for cowboys.

mikemover · #**144** 03-23-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

I was always under the impression, growing up, that cowboys were hard-working, innovative, creative, get-it-done kinda folk.

Yep. That's exactly correct.

...And that's exactly why so many leftists here in the US and in Europe use it as a derogatory term.

Mike

peragro · #**145** 03-23-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Sophisticated people are contemptuous of 'cowboys'--people who are self-reliant and who look at life and work in simple terms like right/wrong, good/evil, friend/enemy. Sophisticated people see a vast volume of lumpy grays in a twilight world where honor and duty are virtues for children and weak-minded adults. Sophisticated people believe that since they see a complex, hard to understand word and cowboys see things in terms of good and evil, that cowboys must be simple-minded and naive. Worse, cowboys are dangerous because they think that wrong things should be destroyed and bad people, punished. Thus, the contempt for cowboys.

If that's the case then I think the definition of "sophisticated" needs an overhaul. That may just be my sense of right and wrong talkin' though [tobaccospit] [/tobaccospit]

cudaspaz · #**146** 03-23-2006, 09:28 PM

I was going to say that I would put a plug of levi-Garrett in my mouth, but them folks might think i'm one of those broke back mountain type of cowboys, but that's another story.

H2O2 · #**147** 03-23-2006, 09:51 PM

Them Merka haters make muh blood boil. If'n I ever catches one of em, I'll chain em to the back of muh truck, and go for a little joy ride. Then when they're good and softened up, I introduce em to muh bestest friends Smith and Wesson. Yesirree, ya gots to love Merka...or else.

Botnst · #**148** 03-23-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O2

Them Merka haters make muh blood boil. If'n I ever catches one of em, I'll chain em to the back of muh truck, and go for a little joy ride. Then when they're good and softened up, I introduce em to muh bestest friends Smith and Wesson. Yesirree, ya gots to love Merka...or else.

You must be from East Texas. because if you were from New York you'd just shoot'em and blame it on somebody else.

B

H2O2 · #**149** 03-23-2006, 10:01 PM

Hey, which side are you on, boy? A little Bird-ee told me you ain't got no yellow ribbon magnets on yer rig. That's a sure sign of a Merka hater.

peragro · #**150** 03-23-2006, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O2

Them Merka haters make muh blood boil. If'n I ever catches one of em, I'll chain em to the back of muh truck, and go for a little joy ride. Then when they're good and softened up, I introduce em to muh bestest friends Smith and Wesson. Yesirree, ya gots to love Merka...or else.

How come you lapsed into good King's English half-way through your soliloquy?

Everyone knows it should've read "Then wen they's good and busted up I'd ..."