That, and having someone like Kuan cook for you.

Comparing religions on this question, it seems like Islam will trounce celibate religions in the long term. I don't think Islam has ever valued celibacy. (maybe Sufi's-- I can't remember) The Great Ayatollah Sistani is even in favor of anal sex between man and wife. Have Muslims ever held the view that sex is only legitimate for reproduction?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Right I forgot about the cook!

That is the schizzmit, to do your thing all day and just show up at a preordained time, eat a wonderful meal ...with no dishes to do and no problems to hear about. I think those are the clear cut advantages to celibacy. It's not moraly better, just plain old better, in those ways.

I don't know much about Islamic celibacy but most of the catholic priests I've met seem a lot less sexualy repressed than most of the Islamist statements I've heard.

PS I mean if you can solve your financial problems by selling off an empty building and you can get people to give you money to pay your bills by doing what amounts to half a weeks work or less if you want to slack... you got it pretty good.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=831799&postcount=13
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=831807&postcount=14

In what I read (quoted above) the authors never suggested that sex was bad. As they see it, (and as evolution sees it) the reason for sex is procreation and pleasure is a side benefit. So it isn't that sex is evil or that pleasure is evil or that sexual pleasure is evil. I believe their theory (which again, is evolutionarily parsimonious) is that if pleasure is the sole purpose of sex then it is counter to the Divine Design (on the one hand) and evolutionary advantage (on the other).

B

They didn't state it but the implication is clear. Sex for pleasure (alone) is not good.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I think that supposition of an implication is what gets all kinds of folks in theological trouble inside and outside of the Vatican.

Here's how I think they structure the argument.

Any human action that intentionally thwarts the Divine Plan (or whatever they call it) is, by definition, sinful.

Thus, to thwart the possibility of procreation (the Plan) is sinful. I think that implies that the pleasure-seeking goal is sinful but that maybe a bridge too far.

B

Yep, that's what I said.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Oh.
.
.
.
.
Nevermind.

I'll weigh in on this, albeit late in the game...

Botnst has it pretty much on the head, except for the pleasure seeking goal. There is nothing wrong with seeking pleasure in sex, after all we're human and our bodies appreciate physical pleasure. But if it's only the pleasure of physical sex without the corrlelating union of man and woman (love), I think it would be nothing more than mutual masterbation (for lack of a better word) which would be sinful.

Regarding much of what Kerry was saying about celibacy:

There is one factor that hasn't been brought up. Marriage between a man and a woman is a union that is actually a representation of the ultimate marriage: the union of man and God. Celibacy is actually a higher form of the union of man and woman. Since the celibate's life is devoted to God alone (not also to a spouse), it more closely represents this ultimate union. The Catholic Church teaches that marriage lasts until death. We won't have our spouses in heaven since at that point we will be "married" perfectly to God.

It it can also be said that a man can have a vocation to neither the married life or the priesthood. There is also a vocation to being simply single in one's life. I do know a few people (men and women) who have taken vows of celibacy for life who don't intend to become priests or nuns.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

This is what I was trying to get at. Celibacy implies there is some higher kind of reality with different and better sets of relationships that can occur on earth in material bodies. God transcends matter and we should and can too in another existence. It puts material reality, this earth and the universe in a secondary position to another reality. I find this view inadequate and would much prefer that the value of this earth be affirmed. This does not require atheism nor does it even imply atheism. It's just a rejection of a Platonic dualism that has always had within it (perhaps it's main emphasis) a denial of the good of human sexuality. I see no reason why a Christian has to adopt this kind of dualism.

If the earth is conceived as the body of God, the good of bodily existence can be affirmed. We could even say that as we orgasm, God orgasms too. God creates the world because God enjoys material existence in the same ways that we do. If God can experience pleasure, then human pleasures can be seen not as sinful but as an expression and experience of God.

What I'm wondering is, if what I think could be true, is true, is it possible that any justification of celibacy could exist within those parameters.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I'm not sure that we are a different reality than the reality of heaven, assuming that was what you were referring to as "another reality". I see the earth and all the material in it as a reflection of God's goodness. As it is, if God were to be separated from any part of it, it would cease to exist.

On a side, heaven is a physical place since both Jesus and Mary have physical bodies. (Catholic point of view) So it could be said that heaven is an actual place with bodies.

Human pleasures are not sinful except when they contradict God's reason for creating them. Since the purpose of sex is both the bonding of a man and a woman as well as the procreation of children, any sex or pleasure of sex (including thoughts) aside from those purposes would be sinful. In other words, they are un-Godly. That's not to say a man and his wife cannot have sex mostly for the purpose of pleasure and union, but the act cannnot rule out the possibility of pregnancy.

I don't agree with those parameters (any physical pleasure is good merely because God created it), so I still see a justification for celibacy.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought you didn't find the explanation compelling but I'm thinking that you and Antonin Scalia are about the only two left.

This account of the purpose of sex only makes sense to me if a theory of original sin is added and another kind of sex was used prior to the fall of humanity. Apart from that, I don't see any reason for thinking that the pleasure of sex is only intended for reproduction. It seems to me that the Christian is better off modifying this view (and the theory of original sin) and developing a more hedonistic view of sexual pleasure including the idea that sex will be better in heaven and that God created the world so she could experience the pleasures of sex thru us.
So, what I'm wondering, is that on this alternative model, accepted in general by some Christians, would there still be a role for celibacy?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

By that measure, any and all post-menopausal sex is sinful, as is any sex for individuals who are impotent for any reason. Just curious -- how have you come to know God's reason? Do you know God's reason for everything, or just sex?

Funny, I used to see him after Mass at my old parish in Great Falls, VA. Good guy.

I didn't mean to imply that. Sex has several purposes, one of which is simply bodily pleasure. God created us as physical and spiritual beings and, as such, physical pleasure is a large part of our life and certainly good. The pleasure of sex is also used to help create that special unity between a man and his wife.

Two things: I don't think there will be sex in heaven (sorry, guys!). Also, I don't see the point in God creating us merely so that he can have an outlet for his own sexual pleasure. Though I do see us and all creation as an outlet or expression of his infinite goodness. Much the same way as Michelangelo's artistic goodness compelled him to create the beauty of the Sistine Chapel (though his talent was a gift from God), God's infinite goodness compelled him to create the universe and everything in it.[/QUOTE]


Sorry, I'm still mulling this one over.

Not really. Since meopause is a natural occurrence created by God, there's nothing wrong with post-menopausal sex. For that matter, sex between a man and his wife during periods of the month when she is not fertile is not sinful either. It's called Natural Family Planning.

Here's a quick explaination:


"Natural Family Planning (NFP)

NFP is an umbrella term for certain methods used to achieve and avoid pregnancies. These methods are based on observation of the naturally occurring signs and symptoms of the fertile and infertile phases of a woman's menstrual cycle. Couples using NFP to avoid pregnancy abstain from intercourse and genital contact during the fertile phase of the woman's cycle. No drugs, devices, or surgical procedures are used to avoid pregnancy.

NFP reflects the dignity of the human person within the context of marriage and family life, promotes openness to life, and recognizes the value of the child. By respecting the love-giving and life-giving natures of marriage, NFP can enrich the bond between husband and wife."

(Standards for Diocesan Natural Family Planning Ministry, p. 23)


Not sure what you're asking, but if it's where I get all these ideas, they're from the Catholic Church. But the Church certainly teaches about other things than sex.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.

But speaking of the show... Where's the girl? Only one guy has a girlfriend and he's clearly gay. The one going on a mission is probably gay. The one carrying the cross is just a freak (explain the purpose of carrying the cross to me) and the only one that seems semi normal is the one who thinks he doesn't want to be a priest. All in all a strange mix.

I believe the title is about chosing between a secular life and a religious life.

But I haven't actually seen the show yet. My girlfriend has an advanced copy DVD of the entire series and we'll probably watch it one night this week.

__________________

Current:
2014 VW Tiguan SEL 4Motion 43,000 miles.

2016 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (wife's).

Past:
2006 Jetta TDI 135,970 miles. Sold Nov. '13.
1995 E-320 Special Edition. 220,200 miles. Sold Sept. '07.
1987 190-E 16 valve. 153,000 miles. Sold Feb. '06.
1980 300-D 225,000 miles. Donated to the National Kidney Foundation.
1980 240-D manual, 297,500 miles. Totaled by inattentive driver.