Quote
 

That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

~Theodore Roosevelt

Someone should tell Britney Spears.

"I like me"
-caboose

More context for that quote can be found here.

(I wouldn't have found/read that if I hadn't been interested in the quote you posted - so thanks!)

Thanks for the link too!

That's his opinion. What of it?

Richard Milhous Nixon, 1972- the worst.
 

I am not quite as cynical as the person quoted by the late San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen, who said that Richard Nixon

[B][I]deserved to be re-elected because he was the perfect representation of everything this country stands for

The most vicious, mean, petty corrupt and venal man to ever hold the office...

Though some people said he looked like a Used Car Salesman
(but George McGovern looked like someone who bought one:D )

And Hunter S. Thompson,
(Fear & Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72) described him as Utterly humorless--the only thing that Nixon would imagine as funny would be a handicapped voter who wanted to vote Democratic but couldn't reach the lever on the voting machine

"I am not a crook" Richard M. Nixon :P

"The nattering nabobs of negativism" V.P. Spiro Agnew (before he left in disgrace)

You don't think that you can learn anything from Teddy Roosevelt? He was a fascinating character with an amazing life story. IMHO, we do well to listen to people like him and to thoughtful people who disagree with him.

I guess I am saying that I don't understand why we are hailing him or anyone as the next messiah. If you have a point to make, make it. Why does bringing someone long dead from a different era make your point any more or less valid. I am more interested in what you have to say than Teddy, Nixon, Lincon or any other dead person. Just because you say the same thing as them doesn't make you any more credible in my eyes. It tells me that you can parrot someone. This is just like people saying "I was brought up to......". Well, it tells me you are an idiot when you say that. You cannot think for yourself as to whether it is good, bad or indifferent. Dad did this and told me to do it so I do it whether it makes sense or not. Monkey see, monkey do.

Tell that to the people that *still* blindly support him and his war.

I'm still waiting for a single good thing he's done for the country. Even the super-supporters we have here have not taken to the challenge.

Oh and to the person that said, "That's his opinion" -- must not be too up on US History. The person quoted WAS a US President! :silly:

No kidding! Really? A US President? My God! I didn't know till it was mentioned. I guess his name fits in this list somewhere, huh? Yah, I know he was a US Prez and a dead ex-US Prez from another era. So? All I am saying is that if all a person can do is point to others to support an opinion and not be able to form one themselves, how significant is what they have to say? Google is a wonderful tool that can find many things a person says and there is an older method, the library.

Spain and J.D. Rockefeller would agree I am sure.

What good have you done for the country, GD?

Well, you obviously recognize my genius. (just kidding).Boy, I've got to agree with you on that one. It's real red flag that what follows is probably worth ignoring.

As for revering dead people, some people were so remarkable that we should listen to them and think about what they said.

Well, I can always ask you what you meant or challenge what you say. As to the dead people, I have to ask John Edwards to get their opinion and it is kinda of a pain.

Yes but people say it with such pride that I wonder what goes thru their head.

Of course we should consider what they said. However, no matter how bright they were in that time or how wonderful they were, I have to make sure I don't just hop along the bandwagon and go with what Joe said because it was what Joe said. Rather, it should mean something to me and then I might mention what someone else said. IOW, while I don't discount what a person said because of the time difference, I don't buy everything they say wholesale either.

I don't wonder what goes through their head so much as I wonder whether anything goes through their head.

Well I was brought up to believe that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all! ;)

But aren't you already saying something? :silly:

TR never invaded another country unprovoked in the selfish interest of his own country.....uh...nevermind.

Bot

Bot,
Your post caused me to read a short biography of TR on Wikipedia. Didn't find a single reference to what I think you said. Kindly be more specific. Also if possible identify if his qoute that began this thread was made prior to or after the invasion.
regards,
Mark

Q: What do you get when you cross an African-American with a Japanese person?


A: Someone who every December 7th invades Pearl Bailey

:D :D

Wikipedia ain't all that.

Columbia is a country that used to be both within South America and up the Isthmus to present-day Costa Rica. TR negotiated with Columbia to build a canal across the isthmus, picking-up where a French concessionaire had failed. The Columbians increased the demands beyond which TR was willing to pay. TR found a group of wealthy Columbian planters and businessmen with interests in the isthmus who supported the canal adventure on TR's terms. They started a revolution, which TR supported with gunboats and marines. After the "revolution" the new leaders negotiated a rent-to-own agreement with TR, if TR would build the canal.

Also, TR sent marines into Haiti and I believe Nicaragua. In both cases to 'protect American interests." This resulted in large fruit plantations owned by American companies whose boards were friends of TR's.

TR's many adventures in the name of the Monroe Doctrine were all successful during the time in which TR was president. His actions expanded phrase, "gunboat diplomacy" that we all think of as a Reagan invention. Reagan was a piker compared to TR.

here's an interesting link: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/boot.htm

Bot
edited to revise & extend comments.

also
 

Spanish American War-
"Theodore Roosevelt, had actively encouraged intervention in Cuba and, while assistant secretary of the Navy, placed the Navy on a war-time footing, had ordered Dewey and the Pacific fleet to the Philippines. He worked with Leonard Wood in convincing the Army to raise an all-volunteer regiment, the 1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry. Wood was given a command of the regiment that became quickly known as the "Rough Riders".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_American_War

"The Philippine-American War was a conflict between the armed forces of the United States and insurgent groups in the Philippines from 1899 through 1913. This conflict is also known as the 'Philippine Insurrection'. This name was historically the most commonly used in the U.S., but Filipinos and some American historians refer to these hostilities as the Philippine-American War, and in 1999 the U.S. Library of Congress reclassified its references to use this term."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War

"By far the most important action I took in foreign affairs during the time I was President was related to the Panama Canal," wrote Theodore Roosevelt in his autobiography. In a speech several years after he "took" Panama, Roosevelt explained: "There are plenty of other things I started merely because the time had come that whoever was in power would have started them. But the Panama Canal would not have started if I had not taken hold of it, because if I had followed the traditional or conservative method I should have submitted an admirable state paper to Congress… the debate would be proceeding at this moment… and the beginning of work on the canal would be fifty years in the future. Fortunately [the opportunity] came at a period when I could act unhampered. Accordingly I took the Isthmus, started the canal and then left Congress not to debate the canal, but to debate me."
--Theodore Roosevelt

Very good, but did the qoute beginning this post occur before, during, or after these events? That's all.
regards,
Mark

.…

I have no idea.

I like TR. He was patriotic always verging on chauvinism, often exceeding that line. His optimism approaches mania. But he was rarely fooled by any man or woman.

If that were all there was to TR then he would be your typical despotic martinet. But he was a far more complex man. He spoke and avidly read and corresponded in several languages. He actively read most (American) scientific journals. Even more amazing is that he understood what he read. He was fabulously wealthy and completely proud of it, yet was contemptuous of wealth for its own sake. He hated socialism, loved freemarkets, yet was an ardent foe of laissez-faire capitalism, trusts, unions, and monopolies.

He was a thoroughly complex and amazing man. Even had he never been president I have no doubt he would have made huge marks on the history of the USA.

Bot

TR was a naked imperialist, which in and of itself is a gross abomination, but even that travesty doesn't take away from the generallized wisdom of his quote. I'm sure Shrub has said something at sometime in his pathetic miserable little life that has some inherent deeply embedded wisdom...searching...searching...searching

Know thyself.

"Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then." Source: Unknown.

While we're on the subject of quotes, I think the phrase - "pathetic miserable little life" - is pretty good. I like that as a description of W.

Speaking as one mostly ignorant of that era of history, I wonder whether the parallels between what TR did and what W is doing are for real.

The two men couldn't be more dissimilar.

BIG STICK DIPLOMACY = International negotiations backed by the threat of force. The phrase comes from a proverb quoted by Theodore Roosevelt, who said that the United States should “Speak softly and carry a big stick.”

In light of the above, I guess that good old Teddy would have been a big supporter of shoving a Moab down Hussein's throat.

AKLIM, you are right. 1. Who cares what some dead guy (President or no President) said and 2. (And here lies the rub) Anyone who knows how to use Google can find quotes from just about any dead guy to support any point of view.

"Those who appear the most sanctified are the worst." Elizabeth I,1586.

Unless, of course, that Prez happened to be TR himself. In which case he tolerated no dissent. (See the post by BOT a few spaces up).

I guess whether we applaud a certain quote and cover it with praise or lambaste it and spray it with scorn depends on whose ox is being gored.

Ay caramba que interesante!!!

The men are different, the global circumstances are different, the economy of the planet is different, and as a people our governmental philosophies are different. I don't think there's a damn thing to learn. Cherry-picking quotes is a simple-minded excuse to avoid thinking.

Bot

hmmm, so true
 

Shakespeare, MLK, Reagan, JFK, Mencken and Goethe were dumbasses anyway. Their quotes are perfectly useless...of no value, whatsoever.

Good lord, I forgot JC himself!!!!!

"I thought he was dead." -Lord Salisbury

although you can draw some parallels between w and tr, tr was a populist. he was FOR ordinary people. he broke up trusts and monopolies. i doubt that his wars benefitted his wealthy friends. and he didnt give tax breaks to the rich because, (i believe) there was no income tax at the time.

nixon... i was really sad when he died because he was the one i most loved to hate.

lets see, he would never have been elected in '68 if RFK had not been assassinated. he would never have been reelected in '72 if wallace hadnt been shot. hmmmmm. see any pattern here?

when he was pres i used to sit there and watch him talking on the tv and shout at it "liar!".

tom w

And the evidence is???

Nixon had RFK and Wallace shot and killed? Is that the pattern? :eek:

I agree, Nixon would have never been elected in 68 and re-elected in 72...

IF ONLY Richard Dailey and the Chicago "Democratic" Mafia had not stolen the election in 1960.

You know the joke in Chicago: "vote early -- vote often." :rolleyes:

Hey, at least Bush did it the legal way and had the Supremes rule on his behalf -- instead of destroying balllots. :eek:

Where's Z when we need his expert proletarian viewpoint?

Nixon had RFK and Wallace assassinated? Attempted in Wallace's case. Are you mad? RFK would never have gotten elected. He had a core following who were filled with passion but he didn't have much big money behind him and had little prospect of getting any. He probably wouldn't have survived his own convention because the professional Democrat politicians despised him for a variety of reasons (many of them named Lyndon Johnson). What he had was good name recognition.

Nixon benefited from Wallace. it's often a benefit to have a wacky politician far to the extreme of your party that you can demagogue. Nixon ran against the anti-war crowd. So Wallace cornered the bigot vote. Nixon benefited from that by being able to claim that he didn't want those people anyway and the truth is, they hated Nixon almost as much as they hated black people. Nixon probably got some percent of the bigot vote when Wallace was shot. But most of them stayed home and reread their John Birch Society Truth Missiles.

Current mythology suggests that the anti-war movement influenced the two elections. Oh yeah, it was an influence alright. It undermined the Democrats and energized the Republicans.

i didnt say nixon had them assassinated. i said he was assisted by their assassinations. the difference is specific.

what ifs are of course impossible to prove.

but if RFK had run, and as it appeared in 68 he would have been the dem nom. maybe he wouldnt have been elected, but at the time it appeared he would. the sentiment for the fallen JFK was very strong. of course back then nobody much knew about his infidelity.

and if wallace had been on the ballot taking all the bigot dem and rep votes it would have been a probable dem victory since a lot more bigot rs voted for nixon than bigot dems voted for mcgovern. no, they would have voted for nixon for sure. his bigotry was at least disguised enough to fool the ones who were fooling themselves about their own bigotry but it was there.

btw, am i predjudiced? yes. i try not to be but i still am.

so you seriously think anyone who would have voted for wallace would have as an alternative voted for mcgovern?

just me. these thoughts are obvious but too radical for mainstream media to touch. but with what we know now, do you doubt that it is possible?

i do not

tom w

Tom, I have agreed with you in the past. On this one I think you are wrong.

I don't think that Wallace could have syphoned enough votes from Nixon to make a difference. Look at Nixon's margin of victory over McGovern. It was a landslide.

Perot may have made a difference, Nader may have made a difference (notice teh use of "may"). But Wallace was too far out to matter.

BTW, a pox on mainstream media!

The liberal media has brainwashed many people.

Here are some facts, a direct quote from a great president:

President Discusses Year-End Accomplishments in Cabinet Meeting
Remarks by the President After Meeting with the Cabinet
The Cabinet Room



10:51 A.M. EST

THE PRESIDENT: I want to thank the members of my Cabinet for coming for what will be the last Cabinet meeting of the year 2003. I've just heard from each Cabinet member about the accomplishments in the year 2003. This has been an historic year. America is safer, America is more prosperous, America is a better place because of the actions this administration has taken.

In order to secure America, we liberated the people of Iraq from a brutal tyrant, and now we're in the process of rebuilding that country, along with others, and we're making good progress.

In order to make sure people could find work in America, we proposed, and Congress passed, an economic stimulus package, and that package is making a significant difference on our economy. Our economy is strong, it is vibrant, people are finding work. But we won't rest until everybody who wants to find a job can find one.

The country is better off for a lot of reasons. A significant piece of legislation was passed by the Congress, which I recently signed, and that is the Medicare reform bill. We took on a tough issue, we worked with Congress to make sure that we fulfilled a promise to America's seniors by modernizing and strengthening Medicare.

This has been a year of accomplishment. We also recognize we've got a job to do, to continue to do for the American people, to keep this country safe and prosperous and strong and a better place for all our citizens. And we look forward to working with the Congress in the year '04 to accomplish those objectives.

Today is Mel Martinez's, the fine Secretary of HUD, last meeting. Mel has served our country with class and distinction, I'm proud, Mel, to have had you on this team. Good job

Huh? You quote the "great enunciator" as definitive proof of his greatness and contribution? That's beautiful man, gawdamned beautiful...

The voters I knew back then that were total bigots held their noses and supported Wallace. They thought we should have a race war and exterminate black people. They wanted a race war. Wallace was their 2nd choice. Without Wallace they just didn't vote. The result in 1972 looked like a vote for Nixon but that is a simple-minded explanation. In fact, many of the Wallace type folks simply did not vote. The result was that the (white) Democrat South, which had been reliable Democrat voters for nearly 100 years, stayed home. This has been popularly mythologized as a vote for Nixon.

In truth, the southern bigot vote hated Nixon even more than they hated a liberal Democrat. They had hated Republicans since Lincoln. Republicans perpetrated legal theft under the euphemism of "reconstruction" which retarded southern economic development for 80 years. Many southern Republicans (older white ones) still feel that way. They view Republicans as NE yankee wealth engineering the rape of the south for personal economic gain. The Democrats have accidentally sacrificed that generational resentment in their bid for a broader base.

Remember that they voted for Jimmy Carter the first time, rather than Gerald Ford. It was not simply because Carter was from the south. It was because he was a Democrat (first) and not a damned yankee fatcat politician. It wasn't until Ronald Reagan ran for election that the southern conservatives and bigots could bring themselves to vote for a Republican. And it was NOT because Reagan was a bigot. Reagan never directly pandered for the bigot vote.

Bot

Do those really look like facts to you? One of us needs to get his eyes checked, because I don't see many facts in that script that someone handed to W.

As for his being a great president, only time will tell. If on this date in the year 2026 W is not regarded as an unambiguous failure, then I will know that everything I ever knew was wrong.

Dogmatic statements haunt.

Bot, to accept the above would require a certain amount of historical knowledge. Something that many people, here or elsewhere, are not willing to do -- read up on history.

Classic.

The perils of intemperate youth. :eek:

'If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.' Mark Twain

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself. -Mark Twain

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Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries. -Douglas Casey, Classmate of Bill Clinton at Georgetown University

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. -Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. -Ronald Reagan (1986)

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Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you! -Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session. -Mark Twain (1866 )

Talk is cheap...except when Congress does it. -Unknown

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