Why support Israel...??? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #16 06-15-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Not to mention a confirmed fan of Gene Wilder and Young Frankestein.

When I was a kid I wanted to be a cartographer. For some reason I thought it would be a great way to travel for free.

I used to spend hours drawing maps of the Cuban coastline, drawing in every river mouth, every water inlet. Until one day a friend of the family, who was well connected with "la Revolucion" suggested to my parents that my hobby could be construed the "wrong way."

NO more maps for me after that.

That guy was f**king stupid. He should have said that you demonstrated the capacity for greatly contributing to the people and revolution, thereby recruiting your mind rather than alienating you. Any adult worth a ***** encourages a youngster with promise. Discouragement of a child's creativity is a perfect indication of weakness and insecurity.

BENZ-LGB · #17 06-15-2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

That guy was f**king stupid. He should have said that you demonstrated the capacity for greatly contributing to the people and revolution, thereby recruiting your mind rather than alienating you. Any adult worth a ***** encourages a youngster with promise. Discouragement of a child's creativity is a perfect indication of weakness and insecurity.

In the Kafka-like (or better yet, Orwellian) world of Cuba (especially early on during the revolution) up was down and down was up.

Lewis Carroll would have had a field day.

I know what you are saying Bot, but he knew what he was talking about and he managed to save our bacon more than once.

I think I am happier as a lawyer than I'd have been as a cartographer...

raymr · #18 06-16-2006, 12:01 AM

I have often wondered that, and I have talked about it with my Jewish friends. Which is just the point. We share more common values with the Israelis than with the Muslims that surround them. On a personal level, theres millions of Muslims in the world, and I'm not friends with a single one. Thats not a deliberate choice. There are just big differences that seem to thwart any kind of closeness.

davidmash · #19 06-16-2006, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

Umm, do we have any "rational" excuses for our current practice of existing as Israel's chief bad policy apologist and mega-financial benefactor...any, at all? Hello, anything? Lil help?

I seem to recall a nuke plant in 1981 that was taken out. I shudder to think what may have hapened had the plant been allowed to operate.

I would also be wiling to be that they are sharing quite a bit of intel that we do not have the ability to get our selves. They have also been so kind to test our weapons of war in live combat situations for the past 50 or so years so that we may develope newer and more effective weaopns.

These are just a few of the reasons that they are our "friend". I do believe that the nuke plant should cover alot of 'debt'. Don't you agree?

BTW, who would you like to replace them with or would you rather not have relations with any nation in the middle east?

Matt SD300 · #20 06-16-2006, 02:52 AM

This Q?.... has already been answered on this tread..

To simple for most to get?

Zeitgeist · #21 06-16-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I seem to recall a nuke plant in 1981 that was taken out. I shudder to think what may have hapened had the plant been allowed to operate.

I would also be wiling to be that they are sharing quite a bit of intel that we do not have the ability to get our selves. They have also been so kind to test our weapons of war in live combat situations for the past 50 or so years so that we may develope newer and more effective weaopns.

These are just a few of the reasons that they are our "friend". I do believe that the nuke plant should cover alot of 'debt'. Don't you agree?

BTW, who would you like to replace them with or would you rather not have relations with any nation in the middle east?

I shudder to think that we allow any nuke plant to operate, so I don't particularly care about one lousy plant in the middle of a far off desert; they bombed it for whatever reason, so good for them-bfd.

I wouldn't "replace" them at all. I'd prefer a paradigm shift, whereby we maintain equally neutral relations with all nations everywhere. What chaps my ass is that we offer Israel political cover for their abominable human rights policies, and pay them handsomely to boot. We're not a fair broker in the region, and everyone knows it, which exacerbates all the problems we claim to be attempting to address.

Mike552 · #22 06-16-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

I shudder to think that we allow any nuke plant to operate, so I don't particularly care about one lousy plant in the middle of a far off desert; they bombed it for whatever reason, so good for them-bfd.

I wouldn't "replace" them at all. I'd prefer a paradigm shift, whereby we maintain equally neutral relations with all nations everywhere. What chaps my ass is that we offer Israel political cover for their abominable human rights policies, and pay them handsomely to boot. We're not a fair broker in the region, and everyone knows it, which exacerbates all the problems we claim to be attempting to address.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. A detailed response to your biast comments would require so much effort and time that I suggest you stop surfing all of those sites that are currently on your favorites list and attempt to look at the issue from all sides. Again, your ignorance towards this subject is too evident and opinionated, so at this time I choose not to respond to your comments... I will just disregard them. Go do some homework then maybe we can talk. Regards.

aklim · #23 06-16-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

I shudder to think that we allow any nuke plant to operate, so I don't particularly care about one lousy plant in the middle of a far off desert; they bombed it for whatever reason, so good for them-bfd.

I wouldn't "replace" them at all. I'd prefer a paradigm shift, whereby we maintain equally neutral relations with all nations everywhere. What chaps my ass is that we offer Israel political cover for their abominable human rights policies, and pay them handsomely to boot. We're not a fair broker in the region, and everyone knows it, which exacerbates all the problems we claim to be attempting to address.

Of course you don't. It is far away. Wait till it comes knocking on your door then you worry about what to do. That was the same attitude they had when they appeased Hitler who needed more "living space". What would have happened if they stopped him there and then?

So, tell me who is a fair broker? Nobody as far as I know. The reason a person is a broker at all is they are trying to slant it to their favor and not because there is a genuine feeling of fairness or to do the right thing. If it is the genuine feeling you are looking for, get GM parts where the feeling is genuine or so their motto goes. The problem we claim to address is window dressing. You know it and so does everyone else. The problem the other side claims to be addressing? Same thing. Everybody lies.

How old are you? I was never that naive at 16.

jlomon · #24 06-16-2006, 10:46 AM

The US supports Israel from a foreign policy perspective for two key reasons that I can think of.

1) Israel is the only legitimate democracy in the region. It becomes difficult to preach the value of the democratic system if that system is not supported in the face of various despotic and oligarchic (sp?) regimes.

2) Support for Israel provides the opportunity to influence their foreign policy. Not to point out the obvious, but the Middle East is a volatile region that has an inordinate amount of importance to the western/developed world due to their oil resources. Since Israel has become far more dependent on US money and protection, they are far less likely to pursue unilateral military actions in response to threats, either real or perceived. The US can help keep that region stable by keeping a hand on Israel's shoulder. I realize that "stable" is a loose term when referring to the Middle East, but can you imgaine what would happen today if Israel launched air strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities, as they did some 20 years ago? It would ignite a regional war that could very well plunge the world economy into a depression.

I think reason #2 is where you're getting the real value for your money, although reason #1 contributes to international credibility based on your committment to democratic ideals.

Jonathan

aklim · #25 06-16-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlomon

Support for Israel provides the opportunity to influence their foreign policy. Not to point out the obvious, but the Middle East is a volatile region that has an inordinate amount of importance to the western/developed world due to their oil resources. Since Israel has become far more dependent on US money and protection, they are far less likely to pursue unilateral military actions in response to threats, either real or perceived. The US can help keep that region stable by keeping a hand on Israel's shoulder. I realize that "stable" is a loose term when referring to the Middle East, but can you imgaine what would happen today if Israel launched air strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities, as they did some 20 years ago? It would ignite a regional war that could very well plunge the world economy into a depression.

I think reason #2 is where you're getting the real value for your money, although reason #1 contributes to international credibility based on your committment to democratic ideals.

Jonathan

That there is the problem. People cannot see it because it has no direct effect on their lives that they know of. However, simetimes the indirect benifit has way more benifits than what you see directly.

Zeitgeist · #26 06-16-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike552

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. A detailed response to your biast comments would require so much effort and time that I suggest you stop surfing all of those sites that are currently on your favorites list and attempt to look at the issue from all sides. Again, your ignorance towards this subject is too evident and opinionated, so at this time I choose not to respond to your comments... I will just disregard them. Go do some homework then maybe we can talk. Regards.

ouch...I guess

Zeitgeist · #27 06-16-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Of course you don't. It is far away. Wait till it comes knocking on your door then you worry about what to do. That was the same attitude they had when they appeased Hitler who needed more "living space". What would have happened if they stopped him there and then?

So, tell me who is a fair broker? Nobody as far as I know. The reason a person is a broker at all is they are trying to slant it to their favor and not because there is a genuine feeling of fairness or to do the right thing. If it is the genuine feeling you are looking for, get GM parts where the feeling is genuine or so their motto goes. The problem we claim to address is window dressing. You know it and so does everyone else. The problem the other side claims to be addressing? Same thing. Everybody lies.

How old are you? I was never that naive at 16.

Can someone pretty please construct a gripping analogy that makes their point without relying on Der Fuhrer for once????

I reject the entire premise of your foreign policy paradigm; if that appears to be naive, then so be it. I'm not an isolationist, but "influence" peddling, as currently practiced by Unkie Sam is little more than "my way, or else". That has been consistently proven to be wrong-headed and counterproductive. Properly managed constructive engagement means acting as a fair broker with all players, rather than as a self-absorbed bully who shakes down bums for change in the back alley. Our present level of global enmity is richly deserved for just that sort of misapplication of power, influence and resources.

aklim · #28 06-16-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

Can someone pretty please construct a gripping analogy that makes their point without relying on Der Fuhrer for once????

I reject the entire premise of your foreign policy paradigm; if that appears to be naive, then so be it. I'm not an isolationist, but "influence" peddling, as currently practiced by Unkie Sam is little more than "my way, or else". That has been consistently proven to be wrong-headed and counterproductive.

Properly managed constructive engagement means acting as a fair broker with all players, rather than as a self-absorbed bully who shakes down bums for change in the back alley. Our present level of global enmity is richly deserved for just that sort of misapplication of power, influence and resources.

What is wrong with that one or is it because it doesn't suit you? Gave you one already about the mess of a house down the street affecting our property values but I guess you didn't care for that one either. What do you want next? An analogy of me dumping toxic waste in a river upstream of you?

Yes you do appear to be naive. Whose method of influence peddling do you like? Or maybe you prefer that nobody peddle influence at all? Tell me, do you do that in real life? Think carefully before you answer. Everything is an influence peddle. Do you hold a job at all? Tell me that has no influence peddling. If there were one donut and you and I were there, who do you think your buddy will give it to? If I needed help at the roadside, who do you think you will help first, assuming all things being equal? Me or your good friend? If I had to buy something, who would I buy it from? A stranger or someone I know?

Properly managed constructive engagement is a nice idea. I hear it is practiced in Utopia with great results. Send me a postcard when you get there with directions. I have yet to see someone do it once you get into the down and dirty of each country so maybe you and John Lenon can sing about "Imagine" but I have yet to see it here. Pick a country you like, any country and if you go live there and honestly look around, you will find that it too peddles influence in one way or the other. the only difference between US and Great Britain or Germany or France, etc, etc is that we are bigger and get more notice, plus we have our own people helping others to beat us up.

BENZ-LGB · #29 06-16-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

Can someone pretty please construct a gripping analogy that makes their point without relying on Der Fuhrer for once????

Since I am the one who made the Fuhrer comments...

Yes, the analogy seems to be particularly appropriate in this instance.

Let me ask further, you also opposed every one of Clinton's happy little excursions into foreign policy, right?

You know, like sending troops to Haiti to appease Charles Chuckles Rangel and company?

Or getting the US military involved in Somalia? Bosnia? Or uselessly lighting up a few missiles and shooting them at OBL?

I am just curious? Are you a consistent isolationist or just a Bush-basher.

The question is important (and so is the answer).

I think that we can all respect an isolationist. There is a lot to be said in favor of circling the wagons and letting the rest of the world go to hell. I don't think that is either a feasible or a sustainable policy -- but oh well. I think that is hard to be an isolationist in light of the shrinking size of the world. But as a general principle, isolationism has advocates who are both intelligent and well-reasoned. I can respect that -- even if I don't agree with the argument or thought process.

If on the other hand, if this is just another round of Bush-bashing....then all I can do is to raise the BS flag and call BS on it.

I think that people here (plus the articles that I cited) have articulated all the reasons why supporting Israel makes good sense.

What will it take to convince you? What part is missing in the puzzle?

BENZ-LGB · #30 06-16-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Properly managed constructive engagement is a nice idea. I hear it is practiced in Utopia with great results. Send me a postcard when you get there with directions. I have yet to see someone do it once you get into the down and dirty of each country so maybe you and John Lenon can sing about "Imagine" but I have yet to see it here. Pick a country you like, any country and if you go live there and honestly look around, you will find that it too peddles influence in one way or the other. the only difference between US and Great Britain or Germany or France, etc, etc is that we are bigger and get more notice, plus we have our own people helping others to beat us up.

Indeed...

I wish I had written that.