How Do We "Win" a War on Terror? - Page 19 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

soypwrd · #**271** 08-28-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Never?

B

Yes, never.

soypwrd · #**272** 08-28-2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

... This is a fight against the spread of radical Islam. Believing that it is anything less is naive.

We (the US) are merely the most obvious target for their hatred.

I can agree with just about all that you have stated. Trouble is, bush has played right into their hands and made matters worse. He`s provided them with a recruitment tool the likes of which they could never have come up with themselves, much to our demise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

... Why?

Because we openly represent freedom of (or from) religion, individual rights and liberties, equality for women, representative government, we value education, equal opportunity... all the things that the extremist Muslim clergy hate, fear, and want to destroy the MOST!

That is simply laughable. They hate us because we are trying to force our ways on them, as mentioned every time OBL makes a statement. If we would have left them alone for the last 50 years instead of doing everything in our power to ensure the free flow of petroleum this would not be an issue today, or nearly not an issue. We are the cause of our own demise by our addiction to what we need that is in their possesion and the petrodollars we`ve sent them which have fueled their ability to do any damage beyond throwing sand in our faces.

We`ve got no one to blame but ourselves for the dire situation we find ourselves in today. Only fools or those under control of greedy self interested rulers/industrial complex would take such a path as ours.

mikemover · #**273** 08-28-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

having the opinion that ones opinions are automatically facts is pretty arrogant, imho.

IF it were merely "my opinion", then you would be correct. But it IS a fact, so.... What were you saying?...

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

and being rude and insulting really doesnt advance the discussion.

I am not trying to be rude, I am trying to be direct. Nothing irritates me more in a conversation or a debate than someone who *******foots around the subject, afraid to say what he or she really means because it might be politically incorrect, or might hurt someone's feeling. We're all big boys and girls here. Let's act like it, shall we?....

Don't misconstrue a disagreement as an insult. I did not insult you. I never engage in name-calling on this forum, and don't intend to start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

and saying you dont have time for any of this is just self aggrandizing.

tom w

No, it is also merely a FACT: I don't have time to tiptoe around... I say what I mean, and mean what I say.

Mike

aklim · #**274** 08-28-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soypwrd

And to aklim, if we found a way to be self sufficient (which would be extremely difficult to do BTW) we would be selling it to our neighbors who would want it just as much as we do, so your argument goes out the window. Do you think we`d be keeping any alternative energy technology to ourselves and not making a killing off it? Hell, the ensuing economic boom would make the Dot.com thing look like a kiddy party.

Well, seeing as how oil is more than fuel alone, it would be impossible unless we sunk a well here the could supply our needs for now and the future. However, as I have said before, unless everybody is supplied, it is going to be a problem. China is financing much of our debt. If they collapse, we will have problems. The only way it can work is if we cut ourselves off completely from the rest of the world and be totally self sufficient. An impossibility today.

mikemover · #**275** 08-28-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soypwrd

That is simply laughable. They hate us because we are trying to force our ways on them, as mentioned every time OBL makes a statement. If we would have left them alone for the last 50 years instead of doing everything in our power to ensure the free flow of petroleum this would not be an issue today, or nearly not an issue. We are the cause of our own demise by our addiction to what we need that is in their possesion and the petrodollars we`ve sent them which have fueled their ability to do any damage beyond throwing sand in our faces.

We`ve got no one to blame but ourselves for the dire situation we find ourselves in today. Only fools or those under control of greedy self interested rulers/industrial complex would take such a path as ours.

You mean if we would have "left them alone" to pursue their agenda of converting the entire world to Fundamentalist Islam, and of exterminating those who will not convert?....

They hate us because we are trying to PREVENT them from forcing their ways upon the rest of the world!

It is no secret that the goal of radical Muslims is to spread their fundamentalist beliefs and their oppressive rule. They proclaim this goal quite openly and loudly.

Even the majority of "normal" Muslims believe that Islam will eventually be THE religion of the world.

... and I really don't care what they believe. They should be free to believe whatever nonsense they wish to believe...

...But the radicals who violently ACT upon this belief... They are the ones we're dealing with, and it is NOT our fault that they are aggressively trying to spread their intolerant, oppressive, hate-filled version of Islam.

You are correct about one thing: We ARE forced to tolerate a lot of this crap because of our oil dependancy. If it weren't for that, we would have no national interest in how they live, how ignorant and oppressed they keep their fellow Arabs, how badly they treat their women, etc.....

But that doesn't mean that the problem would not have come to our door eventually...

Fundamentalist Muslims would STILL want to either convert us or destroy us.

So without the "oil factor", the conflict we're having now may have been delayed... but still would have happened eventually.

Perhaps you should read a bit more about the history of Islam.

Mike

peragro · #**276** 08-28-2006, 12:39 PM

I've always found Churchill's opinion on Islam helpful:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!

“Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co.), 1899

--
My how things have changed in over 100 years, not! If anything, western civilisation is in more danger now than then.

Botnst · #**277** 08-28-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soypwrd

Yes, never.

The Cuban Missle Crisis was an eye-opener for me.

Saddam invading Kuwait was an interesting moment.

The collapse of the USSR was exciting.

The near-nuclear exchanges between Pakistan and India were entertaining.

But if you're referring strictly to a particular region well, the Romans had a hell of a time there.

etc.

Botnst · #**278** 08-28-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soypwrd

I can agree with just about all that you have stated. Trouble is, bush has played right into their hands and made matters worse. He`s provided them with a recruitment tool the likes of which they could never have come up with themselves, much to our demise....

Yep, played right into their hands. Now if they want to kill Americans all they have to do is go to Afghanistan and Iraq, rather than that pesky (and increasingly risky) trip across the ocean.

B

soypwrd · #**279** 08-28-2006, 01:21 PM

And you think they will stop at Iraq and Afganistan? Or don`t have any plans to hit us at home? I know you don`t. Those two places are their testing and recruitment grounds, thanks to bush/rove inc. We`re playing their game now, unlike before President Simpleton took office.

soypwrd · #**280** 08-28-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

The Cuban Missle Crisis was an eye-opener for me.

Saddam invading Kuwait was an interesting moment.

The collapse of the USSR was exciting.

The near-nuclear exchanges between Pakistan and India were entertaining.

But if you're referring strictly to a particular region well, the Romans had a hell of a time there.

etc.

I thought you were refering to the ME specifically.

Honus · #**281** 08-28-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

I call it like I see it.

If I think something is absurd or ridiculous, I am going to call it absurd or ridiculous.

You can be politically correct and tiptoe around everyone's fragile little feelings if you want... I don't have time for that crap.

Mike

You seem to see political correctness everywhere you look. The main point of my comment was not about political correctness, it was about smugness and inaccuracy. You can disagree with t walgamuth's use of the word "destabilize", but his point is not absurd. Violence in the ME has intensified since our invasion of Iraq. Did our invasion contribute to that intensification? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. T walgamuth and I are at a disadvantage in making that determination because we can't match your expertise in, well, everything in the world, but from our laymen's point of view, "destabilize" is not that far off.

Botnst · #**282** 08-28-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soypwrd

And you think they will stop at Iraq and Afganistan? Or don`t have any plans to hit us at home? I know you don`t. ...

If they go to Afghanistan and Iraq to martyr themselves, I'm all for it. Let's have a recruiting campaign challenging them to conquer Iraq.

Of course they'd like to do damage here on our own soil. They really liked it an aweful lot when we were more accommodating--when they could attack us and get away with it. Now that their formal training camps are obliterated and their senior echelons are dead or hiding in the Hindu Kush mountains and unable to use staphones or modern bank transferrances, training is far less intense and more OJT, hence the decidedly unclever cats' paws who are following holy Johad for Al Queda. Al Queda can no longer recruit and train 1st class fanatics so they make do with what they can get--3rd strongers.

Let's put up some recruiting posters to get the Jihadists to kill infidels in Iraq.

B

pj67coll · #**283** 08-28-2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

FINALLY, somebody gets it!

Nice post, Peter. Right on target.

Mike

Oh I've had it for some time. It was apparent right back at the time of the first WTC bombing that the US was under attack and that the current administrational buffoon - Clinton - simply wasn't going to do anything about it. As the embassies were bombed, and the Cole attacked it was glaringly apparent that the US as a whole just didnt have a clue. The really sad part of all that is that the US still doesn't have a clue. Ref the prattle about war on terror vs what I wrote in that post of mine and the farce at security checkpoints caused by the politically correct imbecility of not profiling middle easterners and other moslems.

- Peter.

450slcguy · #**284** 08-28-2006, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

I've always found Churchill's opinion on Islam helpful:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!

“Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

Sir Winston Churchill

Such clarity of thought and linguistic aptitude. That's what we need to win the war on terror, A man like Churchill. A real leader who didn't pull his punches. Do they exist anymore? Anyone?

t walgamuth · #**285** 08-28-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

Such clarity of thought and linguistic aptitude. That's what we need to win the war on terror, A man like Churchill. A real leader who didn't pull his punches. Do they exist anymore? Anyone?

churchill was truly one of a kind. a towering force in the world. powerful intellect, bulldog determination, and fantastic speaking abilities. i suspect his speeches inspired us in the us too.

there may be folks around that good, but without the galvanizing effect of the world wide conflict, they may not be revealed.

remember he was in the wilderness (politically) just prior to ww2 breaking out.
ostracized, without political power and with limited income.

when the sh#t hit the fan they called him in. (i am not as eloquent as he was).

tom w