How Do We "Win" a War on Terror? - Page 38 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #**556** 09-07-2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Peragro, you make good points, but you are still making a straw man argument because none of the Democratic proposals you cite say: "They'll leave us alone if we just leave them alone." Maybe you will close that loop in part 2.

If I understand Murtha, he is saying that our presence in Iraq exacerbates the terrorism problem and that we can more effectively fight terrorists by pulling back over the horizon. While his approach requires us to eat some crow, I don't see any part of his plan that relies on the good faith of the terrorists. He just has a different way of fighting them. He hasn't convinced me that his plan would work, but he is not an appeaser.Diplomacy is not about talking. It's about listening.

Well put. Kerry was actually making good sense today with Chris Matthews. 3 and 1/2 years on, and the insurgents are still putting our guys into Walter Reed with IEDs, and we're just going to stay that course for what, 5, 10, 50 years? How long have the Sunnis and Shias been at violent loggerheads? To that you add hatred of the infidel invader to season the stew and we have hopeless mess, no way in hell gonna show a profit of any kind.

Honus · #**557** 09-07-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

Funny you should bring up McCain...

Do you have any evidence that McCain disagrees with what I said about him? I'm pretty sure I was accurate about that.

Quote:

... We're not talking about torture...

Then there shouldn't be any problem.

Quote:

...The subject at hand is the prisoners "dignity" and "humiliation". Those two things mean little to nothing when comparing a person who is guilty of murder and is trying to do so again to an innocent person's life.

Is it that you find the murder of innocents on par with placing panties on the murderers head? Both are guilty of war crimes???

In your world, where every opposing view is stretched to its most ridiculous extreme, I'm sure that would be a reasonable interpretation.

In my world, where people's statements are taken at face value, my position is that the United States does not use the conduct of accused murderers as any benchmark for our own behavior. We do things the right way, even if our adversaries break every rule.

cmac2012 · #**558** 09-07-2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Well, here is an issue. Not so much about eating crow. It is about appearing weak. They know we are weak and they are strong. That is why they do what they do. OBL was surprised that it was so easy to get us out of Somalia. Think that didn't encourage him and his followers that a little more and they can get what they want? Now, what happens in a few years down the road when they want something else? They know all they have to do is behead a few people, drag a few corpses and what not and we will cave in. Think they won't exploit that? I would.

We keep borrowing from Korea, China, and Japan to fund this losing venture and we'll not only appear weak, we'll be weak.

Not having the sense to abandon a losing stratagy is not strong. Let's just let OBL decide what we're going to do by trying to do what he won't consider weak.

What the hell would we have gained by staying in Somalia for an indefinite occupation, killing 10 Somalis to every one GI day in and day out? Then OBL couldn't have said we were cowards? He'd have just thrown in the towel in that case??

Please...

Honus · #**559** 09-07-2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Let's compare prisoner treatment at the worst that we know. For the USA it's probably Abu Graib, in which people mistreated prisoners in a way that only the most heinous fraternity hazing approaches. Their genitalia was laughed at, for God's sake! Dogs barked at them! They were posed nekkid as jaybirds!

Now let's compare that with how Al Qaeda treats prisoners.

Bot

And the point of that comparison would be...?

peragro · #**560** 09-07-2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surf-n-Turf

But that small minority is getting bigger every day. And has been for a long time. Just a couple months ago, the 14 in Canada. What the heck did Canada do to provoke that??? These guys are latching onto an ideal and it didn't start with our involvment in Iraq.

My guess is that it's not the fact we use the oil in that region. It's not the fact that we supported despots there, the guys in charge are still despots that don't like us.

What it could be is that we allow women rights, we believe that everyone has the right to question everyone, we don't force our people to subsribe to one religion or any religion. In truth they hate our freedom.

It is as fundemental a difference as was our fight with Nazism and Communism. These people are more ruthless than both of those groups.

cmac2012 · #**561** 09-07-2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

I think it's safe to say that had we adopted any of the three resolutions I listed as law, we would be royally screwed at this point.

Oh, we're not royally screwed now, I suppose. Just only thrown huge amounts of blood and treasure down a rat-hole.

peragro · #**562** 09-07-2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Do you have any evidence that McCain disagrees with what I said about him? I'm pretty sure I was accurate about that.Then there shouldn't be any problem.In your world, where every opposing view is stretched to its most ridiculous extreme, I'm sure that would be a reasonable interpretation.

In my world, where people's statements are taken at face value, my position is that the United States does not use the conduct of accused murderers as any benchmark for our own behavior. We do things the right way, even if our adversaries break every rule.

if we're not talking about torture what is your issue with the program that uses no torture?

Other than it was done under Bush's term as president - this time.

Honus · #**563** 09-07-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surf-n-Turf

...Somehow it gets twisted that if we were not in Iraq, these fundamentalists would be a peaceful group...

Nobody said that. Not even bin laden would make that claim.

Honus · #**564** 09-07-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Well put. Kerry was actually making good sense today with Chris Matthews. 3 and 1/2 years on, and the insurgents are still putting our guys into Walter Reed with IEDs, and we're just going to stay that course for what, 5, 10, 50 years? How long have the Sunnis and Shias been at violent loggerheads? To that you add hatred of the infidel invader to season the stew and we have hopeless mess, no way in hell gonna show a profit of any kind.

Why do you hate America? You obviously believe that if we make cupcakes for Bin Laden, then he will tell his people to be nice to us. You never said anything like that, but most of us know that's what you believe.

cmac2012 · #**565** 09-07-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

Here's an excerpt from the link I provided above. It's the speech given yesterday regarding the CIA program that held Khalid Sheik Mohammad and 13 others.

KSM is the person who planned the second bombing of the WTC which resulted in their destruction and the deaths of 3000 innocent, non-combatant, civilian men, woman and children. Yet we are worried about "outraging" this man's "personal dignity" and "humiliating and degrading" him??

There are 13 others who are equally as evil as KSM. God help our interrogators if they may have done something so evil as putting panties on the heads of these "men".

These guys are like pimples on an unhealthy body. Squeeze one or two, there'll be new ones. We need to have an eye to improving the health of the body, instead of holding news conferences about what a GDed big zit we just squeezed.

Sad fact, we've interloped in their lands much more than vicey versa. Got to stop, as an initial step.

cmac2012 · #**566** 09-07-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Why do you always do this "in other words" stuff? Why not just stick with what people say instead of always adding your spin?

You big meanie.

Honus · #**567** 09-07-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

if we're not talking about torture what is your issue with the program that uses no torture?...

You were the one who said we're not talking about torture.

cmac2012 · #**568** 09-07-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Let's compare prisoner treatment at the worst that we know. For the USA it's probably Abu Graib, in which people mistreated prisoners in a way that only the most heinous fraternity hazing approaches. Their genitalia was laughed at, for God's sake! Dogs barked at them! They were posed nekkid as jaybirds!

Now let's compare that with how Al Qaeda treats prisoners.

True and not true. Imagine Iraqi soldiers in your state doing Abu Gharib fraternity hi-jinx on your kids, having first bombed their way into an occupation.

We have to hold the moral high ground. If we abuse their guys, it'll only get worse.

peragro · #**569** 09-07-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

You were the one who said we're not talking about torture.

You seemed to have issue with the CIA program. It has clearly been useful in saving innocent lives. I'd like to know what your problem with it is?

cmac2012 · #**570** 09-07-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

So your solution is that we treat what is going on in the world as a police matter or a crime rather than a war?

It's not well armed states that are attacking us. It's fringe bands of loonies. It's a war and it's not a war.

You don't think strong police measures have had something to do with our not being attacked since 9/11?